From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V7 #251 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Thursday, July 25 2002 Volume 07 : Number 251 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics ["Simon Galloway" ] Re: [AVALON] RE: Nobody Loves Me ( An interpretation) ["tmoq" ] [AVALON] Re: Lou Reed and David Bowie aren't poets shocker (Was Ferry Lyrics) [KWil632057@a] RE: [AVALON] Richard I is not a part of Arthurian Legend ["Fiske, Jocelyn] RE: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics ["Fiske, Jocelyn" ] Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics [JFROXY@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics ["Tim Kendrick" ] [AVALON] Bowie (was Ferry's Lyrics) [KWil632057@aol.com] [AVALON] New Pornographers - Roxy link [Chandla911@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] Richard I is not a part of Arthurian Legend [KB Porter ] [AVALON] Bowie (was Ferry's Lyrics) [KWil632057@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics [JFROXY@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] Ferry/ Without comparison [KB Porter ] Re: [AVALON] Richard I is not a part of Arthurian Legend [KB Porter ] Re: [AVALON] Re: Lou Reed and David Bowie aren't poets shocker (Was Ferry Lyrics) [DEAGLE] Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics ["Paula Brown" ] Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics [Daniel Atterbom ] Re: [AVALON] Ferry/Bowie comparison [Daniel Atterbom ] Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics ["Mark Yates" ] Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics ["Mark Yates" ] Fw: [AVALON] Ferry/Bowie comparison ["David Firmin" ] To leave the list, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon-digest ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:30:47 +0100 From: "Simon Galloway" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics >>> "Tim Kendrick" 07/24 11:56 pm >>> > Bowie seems to me a horrible lyricist, as well as fairly dull in musical terms. Horrible? OK, so it's your opinion, but my opinion is that there are very few writers who can match Bowie's ability and talent as a lyricist. He has the ability to transport himself (and the listener) to other places, scenarios and situations. He can do narrative, first hand accounts, third person perspectives, carry a concept, be funny, dramatic and all the rest of it (diversity - it's what keeps Bowie vital and relevant). Musically dull? Are you having a laugh? After the Beatles, he invented music! His influence goes wider and deeper than probably any other white rock musician of the 20th century. He also has an experimental nature and this is fundamental to his continuing evolution. Whilst Ferry stands still (probably scratching his arse) Bowie gets in there, has enthusiasm for what he does and then gets it released. As someone pointed out the other day, even his failures make interesting listening. > And only in a thoroughly cheap and tatty culture could > Lou Reed pass himself off as some kind of 'poet.' Rather than being a poet, he is a realist, observational and commentary, probably for a side of life that most of us will never encounter. As much as I love Ferry (well, Roxy) these days Bryan appears insular, aloof, stationary and lacking inspiration as both artist and performer. It's a shame. SimonG ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 04:41:50 -0400 From: "tmoq" Subject: Re: [AVALON] RE: Nobody Loves Me ( An interpretation) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 6:52 PM Subject: [AVALON] RE: Nobody Loves Me ( An interpretation) > Yeah Tim but, i don't think teenagers really have any place in Ferry's > musical world. They seem to have found a place in Cruel. Gene N.P.: Dolly Parton- Stairway to Heaven.....yikes! ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 11:34:19 +0200 From: Daniel Atterbom Subject: Re: [AVALON] Richard I is not a part of Arthurian Legend At 00.03 -0400 02-07-25, InterEireann@aol.com wrote: >George Best was not from Manchester. Nor was Eric Cantona. Daniel ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 11:39:43 +0200 From: Daniel Atterbom Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics There are very few lyricists whose lyrics can be read without the music as poetry. I enjoy Ferry's lyrics, I do not always understand them but on the whole he is one of the artists I own the most CD's by. I own more Marvin Gaye CD's, and he only made a few albums with great lyrics in the 70's, but boy how he can deliever those romantic Motown assembly line images of bliss and sadness from the 60's. Daniel ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 06:28:03 EDT From: KWil632057@aol.com Subject: [AVALON] Re: Lou Reed and David Bowie aren't poets shocker (Was Ferry Lyrics) No ones asking you to. Rock may be a diversion and a jolly pleasant one at that but there is still great value to be found in the lyrics of Bowie, Ferry and Reed. You are not really being asked to go just with the lyrics though, theres often a cracking tune in there too! So are you a member of a Rimbaud mailing list and is it fun? Jonathan n/p Pam Ayres 'I Wish I'd Looked After Me Teeth' ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 11:36:29 +0100 From: "Fiske, Jocelyn" Subject: RE: [AVALON] Richard I is not a part of Arthurian Legend - -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Atterbom [mailto:daniel.atterbom@odata.se] Sent: 25 July 2002 10:34 To: avalon@smoe.org Subject: Re: [AVALON] Richard I is not a part of Arthurian Legend At 00.03 -0400 02-07-25, InterEireann@aol.com wrote: >George Best was not from Manchester. >Nor was Eric Cantona. Nor was anyone who supports Manchester United. ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 11:50:06 +0100 From: "Fiske, Jocelyn" Subject: RE: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics - -----Original Message----- From: Simon Galloway [mailto:SIMONG@jazzfm.com] Sent: 25 July 2002 09:31 To: avalon@smoe.org Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics >>> "Tim Kendrick" 07/24 11:56 pm >>> > Bowie seems to me a horrible lyricist, Can't say I agree, but he is at least one of the few who have employed a literary technique in creating his lyrics, namely William Burroughs's Cut - -Up. Very un-rock'n'roll. > And only in a thoroughly cheap and tatty culture could > Lou Reed pass himself off as some kind of 'poet.' I've always thought he is to music what Warhol is to art. Brash, unsettling, giving a skew view of familiar territory, and (here I go with the black note thing again) dark. Maybe you may prefer you lyricists from The Raphael school of painting? Jocelyn ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:06:50 EDT From: JFROXY@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics In a message dated 25/07/02 09:32:57 GMT Daylight Time, SIMONG@jazzfm.com writes: > <> > > LOL, if you keep telling jokes like that Simon then of course people will > laugh. > I recently heard the 30th anniversary "Ziggy" CD, I thought that particular > album sounded dated when I first heard it back in 1974, but by fuck does it > sound dated now! Positively prehistoric. > Compare it to FYP, which is years ahead of it in every aspect. No wonder > Bowie was petrified when Roxy appeared on the scene. Btw I admire Bowie a great deal and think he has released some brilliant stuff (Aladdin Sane through to Heroes and now Heathen, the rest is dodgy), but I do think he should grow old gracefully (like BF), isn't he a bit long in the tooth to be playing the space cadet? cringe. JF ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:31:09 -0400 From: "Tim Kendrick" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics >At first reading Tim I thought you were making some sense. >But attacking Bowie in such a way is ridiculous. > One of the things about being on a list like this is one take one's vaguely held views and exagerates them. I don't care very strongly about Bowie, but I do seriously think he's not, beyond all those images, all that fabulous. I haven't heard HEATHEN and it may be okay, but a few weeks ago I dug out both 1 OUTSIDE and EARTHLING, comparatively well received albums of his later years, which I'd liked at the time.I thought them both already irretrievably dated, thoroughly passe, and I couldn't get through either. Also, he relies entirely on producers to make his stuff work. The '70s Eno work is precisely that - Eno work. Whereas comparatively minor Ferry works - TAXI, say, or the admittedly very eighties BETE NOIRE - in my view have worn well enough to sound better now than when they were new. As if to highlight the paucity at the heart of Bowie, the composer Phillip Glass recently made a suite of the Eno stuff, and it accidentally illuminated the absolute lack of interest the material holds in musical terms.And it's no good saying it shouldn't have been transferred to an orchestral context at all, without at first acknowledging that Bowie himself, perhaps stunned by the flattery of being taken 'seriously', has supported Glass' work wholeheartedly. Tim ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:23:51 EDT From: KWil632057@aol.com Subject: [AVALON] Bowie (was Ferry's Lyrics) Btw I admire Bowie a great deal and think he has released some brilliant stuff (Aladdin Sane through to Heroes and now Heathen, the rest is dodgy), but I do think he should grow old gracefully (like BF), isn't he a bit long in the tooth to be playing the space cadet? cringe. No way! I rate Bowies work on Earth li ng and 1.Outside really highly. Like it or not he still innovates, unlike Ferry whose growing old gracefully has resulted in some horrid MOR blunders. Jonathan n/p Terry Wogan 'The Floral Dance' ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:30:08 -0400 From: Chandla911@aol.com Subject: [AVALON] New Pornographers - Roxy link If you've never come across them, they claim influences such as Sparks and Roxy Music among others (Neko Case is a member) - there are two tracks on http://www.mintrecs.com/BANDS/pornographers/pornographers.html If this is old news to you and you've heard more stuff - is it recommended or not? Best wishes Richard Mills n/p http://www.mintrecs.com/BANDS/pornographers/pornographers.html ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:33:31 -0400 From: KB Porter Subject: Re: [AVALON] Richard I is not a part of Arthurian Legend "Father Christmas is real though, yeah?" You mean, ... there are Baby Christmases? ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:33:40 +0000 From: "Christian H. Soetemann" Subject: Re: [AVALON] the versatility stakes I'm not sure if Ferry can play bass guitar. When he auditioned for King Crimson in 1970, he had to state he couldn't play bass, but auditioned as singer. Obviously Fripp has still got a tape of this somewhere... It would be nice if Ferry played some of the guitars himself, the playing on 'Flesh & Blood' was OK, and he could even mime it to 'Over You'. Christian NP: XTC - I Can't Own Her (demo) - ---------- >Von: "David Firmin" >An: >Betreff: Re: [AVALON] the versatility stakes >Datum: Mit, 24. Jul 2002 15:36 Uhr > >Bass guitar. > >See pic: >http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pauldrum/ffbass.jpg > > >David > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joel Hurd" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 8:37 AM >Subject: [AVALON] the versatility stakes > > >> How many musical instruments is Bryan Ferry known to >> play? >> >> So far I have: >> >> 1. Vocals >> 2. Synths/Piano/Keyboards >> 3. Harmonica >> 4. Guitar >> >> Any more? Stylophone?? ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:34:06 +0000 From: "Christian H. Soetemann" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry/Bowie comparison - ---------- >Von: "Simon Galloway" >An: avalon@smoe.org >Betreff: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics >Datum: Don, 25. Jul 2002 8:30 Uhr > >Musically dull? Are you having a laugh? After the Beatles, he invented >music! His influence goes wider and deeper than probably any other white >rock musician of the 20th century. He also has an experimental nature and >this is fundamental to his continuing evolution. Whilst Ferry stands still Nothing against Bowie's experimental nature, as far as I know his stuff, he has clearly been prone to experimenting. But Bowie having invented music? Compare Roxy's first album and 'Ziggy Stardust', both released in 72 (to my knowledge), and while one of the album is very good solid rock music, the other one is maybe one of the weirdest butterflies to ever have appeared in rock music. Check out Bowie's list of influences in the booklet of 'The Buddha of Suburbia'. I absolutely love 'Low' & 'Heroes', but shouldn't Eno's influence be acknowledged? I think, THIS is one of the most prominent figures in 20th century music. Without Eno, Bowie wouldn't have made these albums in the way they are now. >(probably scratching his arse) Bowie gets in there, has enthusiasm for what >he does and then gets it released. As someone pointed out the other day, >even his failures make interesting listening. I like 'Heathen', but I don't know what's so experimental about it. There's not a lot that's experimental about 'Frantic' either, though. Bowie recently mentioned in an interview that he enjoys writing, but not really singing the stuff. Maybe Ferry enjoys singing material, but scratches his head (not his arse, erm) when it comes to writing lyrics. Bowie has got a great characteristic voice, but Ferry has a strangely melancholic croon that is unlike any other voice I ever heard. The only other male singer that has a similarly emotional effect on me - in a different way - is the sadly largely unknown Peter Hammill (who is said to have influenced Bowie, by the way). Anyway, I deeply respect anyone's preference for Bowie! But I think it can be traced back to personal preference why for some people Bowie's failures are 'interesting' and Ferry's failures just failures. Remember 'Dancing In The Street'? Especially the video!! Christian NP: XTC - Easter Theatre (demo) ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:41:27 EDT From: JFROXY@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bowie (was Ferry's Lyrics) In a message dated 25/07/02 12:28:01 GMT Daylight Time, KWil632057@aol.com writes: > "I rate Bowies work on Earth li ng and 1.Outside really highly" > > "Outside"? that was the concept album he made wasn't it? eh, didn't you > find the narrative part of it a trifle embarrassing and hilarious? and > "Earthling" was the, ha ha ha, drum n bass thang (pardon me for laughing). > Well, at least you can always say he never made a cunt of himself can't > you!!! > I can see by your n/p selections you like a bit of sarcasm and a laff, well > done Jonathan you are a funny guy. > > JF. ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:45:36 -0400 From: KB Porter Subject: Re: [AVALON] The Natives are Restless "..and in case you didn't know , Blackadder was really from the Elizabethan era..and oh yes...George Best was not from Manchester." ...and, oh yeah, ...George Sand was not a woman ... oh, and she was really from the Georgian Period. ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:53:21 EDT From: KWil632057@aol.com Subject: [AVALON] Bowie (was Ferry's Lyrics) In a message dated 25/07/02 12:41:44 GMT Daylight Time, JFROXY@aol.com writes: > > "Outside"? that was the concept album he made wasn't it? eh, didn't you > > find the narrative part of it a trifle embarrassing and hilarious? and > > "Earthling" was the, ha ha ha, drum n bass thang (pardon me for > laughing). > > Well, at least you can always say he never made a cunt of himself can't > > you!!! > > I can see by your n/p selections you like a bit of sarcasm and a laff, > well > > done Jonathan you are a funny guy. > > > > JF. Im actually very serious. The narrative aspect of 1.Outside I believe is strange and not at all embaressing. Sure it's risky but bravo for taking the risk. The 'drum and bass thang' line prompts me to think that you haven't heard the lp though. Listen agian and come back to tell me how many drum and bass tracks are on there. I would avoid bad language though, it's not big or clever and reflects badly on you and the otherwise articulate nature of other list users. I thank you. Jonathan ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:05:03 EDT From: JFROXY@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics In a message dated 25/07/02 12:34:32 GMT Daylight Time, soetemann@nord-com.net writes: > "I'm not sure if Ferry can play bass guitar." > > When Roxy got back together in 1978 for the "Manifesto" session rehearsals, > BF was ("to everyone's horror") playing bass. He originally wanted Herbie > Flowers to be bassist but he was playing with Sky at the time, BF then, > with Flowers recommendation, got in Gary Tibbs. > > JF. ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:28:16 -0400 From: KB Porter Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry/ Without comparison "Bowie recently mentioned in an interview that he enjoys writing, but not really singing the stuff. Maybe Ferry enjoys singing material, but scratches his head (not his arse, erm) when it comes to writing lyrics." Perhaps if these two artists worked together their strengths and weaknesses would augment and compensate one another. ;) It seems there was something in the late 70's that forever changed Bryan Ferry. I do not wish to put this life's change down to Jerry Hall, I believe she is but a part of the alteration. Mr. Ferry's lyrics became clipped, economical (thus clichi) and focused of inner issues as opposed to his earlier lyrics which may be described as picturesque, innovative (the forerunner of clichi) and of worldly aspect. His music became intricate, multilayered and very dark as opposed to his earlier music that was quirky, surprising and of various moods. His output became very infrequent where it had been regular. He developed 'writer's block', where previously his creativity flowed. These changes may be largely due to working alone, or they may be due to his decision to not accept external influences that formerly existed when Roxy Music was in tact. What ever reasons there are, Ferry's music and career irrevocable changed. I would not say the 'Roxy' period is better or worse than the 'Ferry alone' period. I have an appreciation for both. I still respect Mr. Ferry's work, but for the life of me, I do not understand what is going on with his music or his career the past few years. I remain hopeful that Bryan Ferry will once again emerge from the wilderness and give us more amazing music. Best wishes, All. KBP ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:37:41 -0400 From: KB Porter Subject: Re: [AVALON] Richard I is not a part of Arthurian Legend "... He has written a bestselling book about Robin Hood called The man from Barnsdale where he looks at the myths, the facts and the five best movies about Robin Hood. My friend of a friend liked the Heath Ledger movie with the soundtrack by Queen, David Bowie and Eric Clapton, btw." I personally liked "Men In Tights" best! Next is Errol Flynn's "Robin Hood" movie. :^) ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:17:51 +0000 From: "M. Taylor" Subject: [AVALON] Bryan Ferry Word Whiz! SPOOF! (Written really quickly.....) Bryan Ferry  Word Whiz! by M England  Singer Bryan Ferry has been discovered to be a superb word whiz. I love playing with the Magnetic Poetry Kits, he stated recently. In fact, thats how I write my lyrics. The Romantic Kit came in handy when I was working on Frantic. Everyone in the house is instructed to not touch anything that is on the kitchen refrigerator. My peak creative periods are when Im waiting for dinner and have time to kill. My wife Lucy just gave me the Really Big Words poetry set, which Ive been eyeing for quite some time. I dont have to wear my glasses or contact lenses when I use them. Mr. Ferry is also addicted to Scrabble. While on tour, he takes his travel Scrabble board with him and forces band members to play the game. He plans to enter a Scrabble tournament at the end of the year. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 11:33:02 EDT From: DEAGLERR@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: Lou Reed and David Bowie aren't poets shocker (Was Ferry Lyrics) Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics > And only in a thoroughly cheap and tatty culture could > Lou Reed pass himself off as some kind of 'poet.' >I've always thought he is to music what Warhol is to art< I think Bowie, Lou, and Ferry are all great lyricists and sometimes poets. I agree Reed is in school with Warhol, certainly was in camp with him at any rate. Bowie is a unique artist, born only of our time and with mostly modern influences and none too much in evidence, but he has pointed them out, as you say. Ferry has acknowledged the Arthurian connection in multiple interviews at this point, so arguing it is a moot point, though I will say that even if he hadn't, once a fan makes that connection, it is made, and the beauty of art is that it is different things to different people and that one person's interpretation of symbolism or lack thereof they derive from it is no less valid even if it is completely counter to what the artist built it intending. Paula ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:42:19 +0200 From: Daniel Atterbom Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics At 08.05 -0400 02-07-25, JFROXY@aol.com wrote: >> When Roxy got back together in 1978 for the "Manifesto" session rehearsals, >> BF was ("to everyone's horror") playing bass. He originally wanted Herbie >> Flowers to be bassist but he was playing with Sky at the time, BF then, >> with Flowers recommendation, got in Gary Tibbs. Just imagine them doing a cover of Walk on the wild side with Flowers on bass. Seldom has someone been so famousfor just one bass line. I liked Sky, but I am one of the few that did. Daniel ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:45:01 +0200 From: Daniel Atterbom Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry/Bowie comparison At 13.34 +0000 02-07-25, Christian H. Soetemann wrote: >I absolutely love 'Low' & 'Heroes', but shouldn't Eno's influence be >acknowledged? I think, THIS is one of the most prominent figures in 20th >century music. Without Eno, Bowie wouldn't have made these albums in the way >they are now. Eno is in some aspects a greater influence on music then Ferry, imho. As a producer he can rival the best, having coached Bowie, Talkinh Heads, U2 and James to new highs. Daniel ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:04:19 +0100 From: "Mark Yates" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry/Bowie comparison Eno's influence on Bowie has never been in doubt. Eno influences all the people he has worked with. Never more so than his work with Ferry. The first Two Roxy album were ahead of their time. Thanks in no small part to Eno. How do you rate Stranded??. Ahead of its time?? No. But still a great album. But the Eno influence well and truly vanished. Mark. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian H. Soetemann" To: Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry/Bowie comparison > ---------- > >Von: "Simon Galloway" > >An: avalon@smoe.org > >Betreff: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics > >Datum: Don, 25. Jul 2002 8:30 Uhr > > > >Musically dull? Are you having a laugh? After the Beatles, he invented > >music! His influence goes wider and deeper than probably any other white > >rock musician of the 20th century. He also has an experimental nature and > >this is fundamental to his continuing evolution. Whilst Ferry stands still > > Nothing against Bowie's experimental nature, as far as I know his stuff, he > has clearly been prone to experimenting. But Bowie having invented music? > Compare Roxy's first album and 'Ziggy Stardust', both released in 72 (to my > knowledge), and while one of the album is very good solid rock music, the > other one is maybe one of the weirdest butterflies to ever have appeared in > rock music. Check out Bowie's list of influences in the booklet of 'The > Buddha of Suburbia'. > > I absolutely love 'Low' & 'Heroes', but shouldn't Eno's influence be > acknowledged? I think, THIS is one of the most prominent figures in 20th > century music. Without Eno, Bowie wouldn't have made these albums in the way > they are now. > > >(probably scratching his arse) Bowie gets in there, has enthusiasm for what > >he does and then gets it released. As someone pointed out the other day, > >even his failures make interesting listening. > > I like 'Heathen', but I don't know what's so experimental about it. There's > not a lot that's experimental about 'Frantic' either, though. Bowie recently > mentioned in an interview that he enjoys writing, but not really singing the > stuff. Maybe Ferry enjoys singing material, but scratches his head (not his > arse, erm) when it comes to writing lyrics. Bowie has got a great > characteristic voice, but Ferry has a strangely melancholic croon that is > unlike any other voice I ever heard. The only other male singer that has a > similarly emotional effect on me - in a different way - is the sadly largely > unknown Peter Hammill (who is said to have influenced Bowie, by the way). > > Anyway, I deeply respect anyone's preference for Bowie! But I think it can > be traced back to personal preference why for some people Bowie's failures > are 'interesting' and Ferry's failures just failures. Remember 'Dancing In > The Street'? Especially the video!! > > Christian > > NP: XTC - Easter Theatre (demo) > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon > Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:26:11 +0100 From: "Mark Yates" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics You completely misunderstand the concept of both Earthling and Outside. .,........Of course they sound dated. The idea of both albums was to make albums of the times. You enjoyed listening to them when they were realised!!! Then the concept worked. They were never meant to be "Classic" Albums that would be appreciated for years. They were Albums of the Time. And NO!! the albums you refer to weren't Eno work, they were a collaboration. Taxi .........and for me at least didn't work....Its one of my least favourite Ferry albums.Listening to Taxi can almost feel that Ferry is trying to create a Modern sound.........but missing by a mile. OH!! Thanks for pointing out that Philip Glass is a composer..... I had no idea. Mark. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Kendrick" To: "Avalonia" Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics > >At first reading Tim I thought you were making some sense. > >But attacking Bowie in such a way is ridiculous. > > > > One of the things about being on a list like this is one > take one's vaguely held views and exagerates them. I don't care > very strongly about Bowie, but I do seriously think he's not, > beyond all those images, all that fabulous. I haven't heard > HEATHEN and it may be okay, but a few > weeks ago I dug out both 1 OUTSIDE and EARTHLING, > comparatively well received albums of his later years, which > I'd liked at the time.I thought them both already irretrievably dated, > thoroughly passe, and I couldn't get through either. Also, he relies > entirely on producers to make his stuff work. The '70s Eno work > is precisely that - Eno work. Whereas comparatively minor Ferry > works - TAXI, say, or the admittedly very eighties BETE NOIRE - in my view > have worn well enough to sound better now than when they were > new. > As if to highlight the paucity at the heart of Bowie, the composer Phillip > Glass recently made a suite of the Eno stuff, and it accidentally > illuminated > the absolute lack of interest the material holds in musical terms.And it's > no > good saying it shouldn't have been transferred to an orchestral context at > all, > without at first acknowledging that Bowie himself, perhaps > stunned by the flattery of being taken 'seriously', has supported Glass' > work > wholeheartedly. > > Tim > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon > Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:37:56 +0100 From: "Mark Yates" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics Totally agree with you Simon Well almost!! I don't think that Ferry is lacking inspiration. I think Frantic is a Great album. But your points on Bowie and Lou are perfectly stated. Mark. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Galloway" To: Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics > >>> "Tim Kendrick" 07/24 11:56 pm >>> > > Bowie seems to me a horrible lyricist, as well as fairly dull in musical terms. > > Horrible? OK, so it's your opinion, but my opinion is that there are very few writers who can match Bowie's ability and talent as a lyricist. He has the ability to transport himself (and the listener) to other places, scenarios and situations. He can do narrative, first hand accounts, third person perspectives, carry a concept, be funny, dramatic and all the rest of it (diversity - it's what keeps Bowie vital and relevant). Musically dull? Are you having a laugh? After the Beatles, he invented music! His influence goes wider and deeper than probably any other white rock musician of the 20th century. He also has an experimental nature and this is fundamental to his continuing evolution. Whilst Ferry stands still (probably scratching his arse) Bowie gets in there, has enthusiasm for what he does and then gets it released. As someone pointed out the other day, even his failures make interesting listening. > > > And only in a thoroughly cheap and tatty culture could > > Lou Reed pass himself off as some kind of 'poet.' > > Rather than being a poet, he is a realist, observational and commentary, probably for a side of life that most of us will never encounter. > > As much as I love Ferry (well, Roxy) these days Bryan appears insular, aloof, stationary and lacking inspiration as both artist and performer. > > It's a shame. > > SimonG > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon > Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:44:46 +0100 From: "Mark Yates" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics Bowie "Petrified When Roxy came on the scene...." Who's having a laugh now???? Mark. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics > In a message dated 25/07/02 09:32:57 GMT Daylight Time, SIMONG@jazzfm.com > writes: > > > > <> > > > > LOL, if you keep telling jokes like that Simon then of course people will > > laugh. > > I recently heard the 30th anniversary "Ziggy" CD, I thought that particular > > album sounded dated when I first heard it back in 1974, but by fuck does it > > sound dated now! Positively prehistoric. > > Compare it to FYP, which is years ahead of it in every aspect. No wonder > > Bowie was petrified when Roxy appeared on the scene. > > Btw I admire Bowie a great deal and think he has released some brilliant > stuff (Aladdin Sane through to Heroes and now Heathen, the rest is dodgy), > but I do think he should grow old gracefully (like BF), isn't he a bit long > in the tooth to be playing the space cadet? cringe. > > > JF > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon > Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 11:46:22 -0700 From: "David Firmin" Subject: Fw: [AVALON] Ferry/Bowie comparison The first two Roxy albums were ahead of their time, but I have to agree with Eno that Stranded is the best Roxy album. Extract from Ferry interview: Q: Did Eno leave Roxy at the right time? A: "It's impossible to say. To Brian's credit, his favourite album is Stranded, which he isn't on. It is intriguing to imagine what he'd have done with the others...Maybe I should get him into my studio to play along with them." Great idea Bryan! - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Yates" To: Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry/Bowie comparison > Eno's influence on Bowie has never been in doubt. > Eno influences all the people he has worked with. > Never more so than his work with Ferry. > The first Two Roxy album were ahead of their time. > Thanks in no small part to Eno. How do you rate Stranded??. Ahead of its > time?? No. But still a great album. But the Eno influence well and truly > vanished. > Mark. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christian H. Soetemann" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 2:34 PM > Subject: Re: [AVALON] Ferry/Bowie comparison > > > > ---------- > > >Von: "Simon Galloway" > > >An: avalon@smoe.org > > >Betreff: Re: [AVALON] Ferry's Lyrics > > >Datum: Don, 25. Jul 2002 8:30 Uhr > > > > > >Musically dull? Are you having a laugh? After the Beatles, he invented > > >music! His influence goes wider and deeper than probably any other white > > >rock musician of the 20th century. He also has an experimental nature and > > >this is fundamental to his continuing evolution. Whilst Ferry stands > still > > > > Nothing against Bowie's experimental nature, as far as I know his stuff, > he > > has clearly been prone to experimenting. But Bowie having invented music? > > Compare Roxy's first album and 'Ziggy Stardust', both released in 72 (to > my > > knowledge), and while one of the album is very good solid rock music, the > > other one is maybe one of the weirdest butterflies to ever have appeared > in > > rock music. Check out Bowie's list of influences in the booklet of 'The > > Buddha of Suburbia'. > > > > I absolutely love 'Low' & 'Heroes', but shouldn't Eno's influence be > > acknowledged? I think, THIS is one of the most prominent figures in 20th > > century music. Without Eno, Bowie wouldn't have made these albums in the > way > > they are now. > > > > >(probably scratching his arse) Bowie gets in there, has enthusiasm for > what > > >he does and then gets it released. As someone pointed out the other day, > > >even his failures make interesting listening. > > > > I like 'Heathen', but I don't know what's so experimental about it. > There's > > not a lot that's experimental about 'Frantic' either, though. Bowie > recently > > mentioned in an interview that he enjoys writing, but not really singing > the > > stuff. Maybe Ferry enjoys singing material, but scratches his head (not > his > > arse, erm) when it comes to writing lyrics. Bowie has got a great > > characteristic voice, but Ferry has a strangely melancholic croon that is > > unlike any other voice I ever heard. The only other male singer that has a > > similarly emotional effect on me - in a different way - is the sadly > largely > > unknown Peter Hammill (who is said to have influenced Bowie, by the way). > > > > Anyway, I deeply respect anyone's preference for Bowie! But I think it can > > be traced back to personal preference why for some people Bowie's failures > > are 'interesting' and Ferry's failures just failures. Remember 'Dancing In > > The Street'? Especially the video!! > > > > Christian > > > > NP: XTC - Easter Theatre (demo) > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon > > Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon > Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ___________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon Avalonians on tour 2002: http://helios.unive.it/~tcecilia/meetup.html ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V7 #251 **************************** ======================================================================== For further info, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info avalon-digest