From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V6 #500 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Saturday, October 27 2001 Volume 06 : Number 500 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [AVALON] Bill MacCormick a fans reply, long post. [bmaccormick@cix.co] Re: [AVALON] Re: Hammersmith [bmaccormick@cix.co.uk (Bill MacCormick)] Re: [AVALON] Re: Hammersmith ["Prince Of Happiness" ] [AVALON] Bill MacCormick?! ["One of the Grays" ] Re: [AVALON] Thank you Bill Mac [=?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FCnter_Wandtke?= ] [AVALON] Thanks Bill, see you again, don't be a stranger [Chandla911@aol.] [AVALON] Roxy Ripoff! ["Eman 97" ] [AVALON] Brian's suit [Duarte Mendonca ] To leave the list, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon-digest ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:14 +0100 (BST) From: bmaccormick@cix.co.uk (Bill MacCormick) Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bill MacCormick a fans reply, long post. In article <002b01c15e38$47be06e0$3f95fc3e@pbell>, thom.wallace@ntlworld.com (thom.wallace) wrote: > Sorry Bill, but this just don't stick. You can accept a contract or > negotiate one with different terms. If the band want to make the most > money > out of the tour without consideration for their fans that's fine by me > just > as long as they own up that and don't try and dress it up as something > else. This is utter nonsense. The band were offered a deal for a certain amount of money for a 50 date tour. At the time cities, venues, dates, etc., were unknown, i.e. no-one could do a 'total available tickets divided into total income to arrive at an average ticket price' calculation. What was also unknown was the likely take up of tickets by the public. SFX took a punt on the outcome - they were wrong in many cases (or brought it on themselves thru' a lack of promotion?). They promoted the tour in their own venues in North America (which is why they played Atlanta and not Cleveland. Sadly, SFX only bought a venue in Cleveland after the Atlanta date had been confirmed). Outside of that they sub-contracted the promotion to local promoters in Europe, Australia and Japan. Solo dealt with it in the UK. Promoters got the tour if they could match what SFX needed to make their money back. They all then priced the tickets at what they saw was the level needed to make their own profit. This is the way these tours work. Everyone made a commercial judgement based on experience and, of course, what they thought the market would bear. Rather like selling a car, or a fridge or any other product. The tour was still being put in place at the beginning of September and venues were decided solely by SFX and local promoters. I suspect the they thought that two shows presented as possibly Roxy Music's last ever concerts would not be too price sensitive. They were wrong. These were commercial judgements which is what promoters do. If the band had attempted to set some form of limit on ticket prices (a pretty much unprecedented position to take) then I suspect the tour would not have taken place as the promoter(s) would have viewed this is an unreasonable restriction on their ability to make a profit (or minimise a loss). The only other way ticket prices could have ben reduced is if the band had said "no, you are offering too much, we will never sell enough tickets to warrant that guarantee without the ticket prices being too high". Just how many employees tell their bosses that their salaries are adversely affecting the competitiveness of their company products so please will you pay me less? Not in the real world. > I can accept that the record company has the right to re-hash material > as > they see fit, however you can't extract the band from the situation as > it > was they who signed the deal with EG in the first place. Are you > telling us > that when EG sold out to Virgin they negotiated a contract for the > services > of Roxy without the bands knowlege or agreement? Perhaps you would care > to > enlighten us to the situation with Roxy and Virgin as to what and for > how > long they have the rights to issue Roxy albums. EG signed the company over to Virgin with all of it assets, including the Roxy catalogue, in perpetuity. The EG agreement with the band was that the RM catalogue could not be sold on without the band's agreement. Sadly, no-one at the time thought of the idea that the whole company might be sold. None of the members of the band or any other EG band were party to the sale because the company was sold and not the music. Virgin had the rights to produce a certain number of compilations at their discretion. That ran out with the last hits album. They continue to own, and (unless something else happens) will always own, the RM and solo back catalogue. > Call it bullshit or elitist if you want Bill, but I can only tell you > what > the fans with whom I am in contact tell me. Who represent you and themselves and, not necessarily, any one else. > As it is I don't actually recall having said > that > only the early material was any good, but it's a fact that it had more > substance to it than a lot of the material that was released from '79 > onwards. Which, as a personal statement, I have no problems with. When it is then applied as the views of the mass of the audience I do have a problem. > If I remember rightly didn't Bryan's forum recently > have > a problem with someone posting false messages in his name. The problem's on BF's forum that I witnessed were of a totally different order. There, some lunatic was trying to break the world record for the highest concentration of expletives in one email. He regularly broke his own record before it was shut down. BM ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:14 +0100 (BST) From: bmaccormick@cix.co.uk (Bill MacCormick) Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: Hammersmith In article <3BD98B02.8060009@thewebgal.com>, hjames@thewebgal.com (Heather James) wrote: > Bill - as long as your here - are you familiar with the King > Crimson Collector's Club Robert Fripp put together a few years back. > Folks join up and send in money up-front for 6 discs, and he works > through his old archived concert tapes (and the occasional bootleg), > cleans them up, sweetens them and distributes them to the club - about > every other month, on average. > I believe he's up to release # 16 or 17 these days. Yes, I have a written proposal to set this up which I gave to Phil over a year ago. Though they would legally have no problems with doing CDs of all the recorded concerts on the 2001 tour (only Dublin was missed, I believe) anything recorded in the 70s and 80s would have to have the agreement of Virgin before it could be released and then they would probably want a slice of the action. How likely it is that anyone could bring themselves to discuss this with Virgin I really couldn't tell you. Rather more possible is something on the BBC tapes though, again, both the Beeb and Virgin would want their cut. Phil approached the BBC some time ago and was rebuffed in a rather cursory fashion as someone else was in negotiation. Odd reaction as Phil would have had to give his approval for this to succeed. As nothing has been forthcoming I assume this plan failed which opens the way for another approach. BM ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:15:35 -0700 From: "Prince Of Happiness" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: Hammersmith What about getting through to the people who released the Concerto CD? The Prince of Happiness "Made sacrifice your key to paradise Never mind, take the world by storm Just boogaloo a rhapsody divine"-Roxy Music, "Pyjamarama" http://princeofhappines.tripod.com/thepageofhappines.html >From: bmaccormick@cix.co.uk (Bill MacCormick) >Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org >To: avalon@smoe.org >CC: bmaccormick@cix.co.uk >Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: Hammersmith >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:14 +0100 (BST) > >In article <3BD98B02.8060009@thewebgal.com>, hjames@thewebgal.com (Heather >James) wrote: > > > Bill - as long as your here - are you familiar with the King > > Crimson Collector's Club Robert Fripp put together a few years back. > > Folks join up and send in money up-front for 6 discs, and he works > > through his old archived concert tapes (and the occasional bootleg), > > cleans them up, sweetens them and distributes them to the club - about > > every other month, on average. > > I believe he's up to release # 16 or 17 these days. > >Yes, I have a written proposal to set this up which I gave to Phil over a >year ago. Though they would legally have no problems with doing CDs of >all the recorded concerts on the 2001 tour (only Dublin was missed, I >believe) anything recorded in the 70s and 80s would have to have the >agreement of Virgin before it could be released and then they would >probably want a slice of the action. How likely it is that anyone could >bring themselves to discuss this with Virgin I really couldn't tell you. > >Rather more possible is something on the BBC tapes though, again, both the >Beeb and Virgin would want their cut. Phil approached the BBC some time >ago and was rebuffed in a rather cursory fashion as someone else was in >negotiation. Odd reaction as Phil would have had to give his approval for >this to succeed. As nothing has been forthcoming I assume this plan >failed which opens the way for another approach. > >BM > > >___________________________________________________________________________ >The subliminable footer says: >To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: >unsubscribe avalon > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:32 +0100 (BST) From: bmaccormick@cix.co.uk (Bill MacCormick) Subject: Re: [AVALON] Thank you Bill Mac In article <002101c15e57$dd660160$b31f0fd0@ppavlock>, ppavlock@netsync.net (ppavlock) wrote: > damn good plucker Could someone tell my wife that ;-) BM ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:01:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Matan Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bill MacCormick a fans reply, long post. On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Bill MacCormick wrote: > Colleen, I've been on this list for over two years. I've just never > felt motivated to post anything before. Thanks, Bill. Obviously the guess about timing was an honest mistake on my part giving the recurring nature of the discussion you participated in over the last few months. Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 00:16:31 +0100 From: "thom.wallace" Subject: [AVALON] Agree to differ. Well Bill I guess that you and I will never agree on how Roxy conduct their business, but I do thank you for the information on how things stand with Virgin, the back catalogue and the recordings from the latest tour. Would I then be right in thinking that if the band had decided to record a new studio album that Virgin would not have had any claim on it? I find it sad that the band have gone down a path over the years that has lead them to have so little control over the works that they created and how it is sold. Btw which fridge and car models do you think may be offered on Manzanera.com > I suspect the they thought that two shows presented as possibly Roxy Music's last ever > concerts would not be too price sensitive. Does this mean that there is a definite possibility that they were not? Perhaps I am wrong, but I get the feeling that you were not impressed by the way this tour was organised. If possible would you care to give us your views on the tour, it's organisation and what you would have preferred to have been done? I would understand if you would not like to go with this due to your association with Phil M. On the topic of Phil, when do you think he will have a follow up to Vozero ready? If he is planning a new studio album do you think it will carry on from the latino style of music that he has been working with in recent years? Tom Wallace. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:16:37 -0400 From: "One of the Grays" Subject: [AVALON] Bill MacCormick?! What is the point of all this jockeying back and forward between Bill and others? Let me try to put things into perspective here, at least in my own mind: I'm sure that most of you who have a beef about the commercial aspect of the recent tour attended at least one concert, paying the value, if not more, of the ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:28:32 +1100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FCnter_Wandtke?= Subject: Re: [AVALON] Thank you Bill Mac With all the criticism aired, I also feel like reminding of all the bright sides of the Roxy 2001 reunion : 1) Myself and so many others were so happy to see this band together again after all these years. 2) The setlist was almost impacable. Who would have expected to hear them perform all the great hits of their early period again. And the newer material sounded just as good as the old songs in the versions presented. And what a choice to end the concert with FYP, I still tremble remembering it. 3) At their age all the original members presented themselves in remarkable shape. There is so many reunions that are very obviously only done for the money presenting performers well past their heydays. (I remember with a shudder the faded voice of Greg Lake on an "Emmerson Lake and Palmer reunion live performance). Roxy Music deserves any credit for undergoing the crueling routine of a 50 nights 4 continents iteney and still pulling it together very well night after night inspite of obvious signs of tiredness as the tour progressed. I guess we Aussies can call ourselves especially lucky to have had them here, with so many other tours bypassing us. 4) The supporting band was of the finest quality. The band was put together with great care and presented itself as a well rehearsed union. There was also enough confidence for improvisation and make each recording of different nights interesting listening. If this really was mainly for the money, then this was great miming, many thought they saw the band enjoy themselves and deliver inspired performances. 5) The band was very friendly and accommodating towards all fans who approached them , documented in the many after show snap shots, stories and interviews. 6) TGPT rejoined Roxy! I think it's rather these points I would like Bill to convey to the band then the few problems and shortcomings. (Admitted, I was also disappointed about the missing extras at the final shows after all the hype.) Wouldn't it be conceivable, that the band themselves organize a final show in a big venue and organize all those extras for it? A bit like the Final Waltz of "The Band". That would probably be easier then trying to pull together extras while the tour is still on. Gunter Wandtke - ----- Original Message ----- From: "ppavlock" To: Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 6:53 AM Subject: [AVALON] Thank you Bill Mac > I think it is time to back off Bill. He has done a wonderful job keeping us > informed on the Manzanera site. It is like having a "cousin" on the inside. > To have someone who played(plays)with Phil keeping us abreast of what's up > should be more than enough. I was not lucky enough to go to any of this > years shows. I depend on Avalon and Phils site to satisfy me. I love > getting the autographed CDs at a great price. As any webmaster can tell you > it's a bitch to run these sites. I gotta say a personal thank you to Bill > Mac for all he's done. I wished he would have been the bassist for the tour > as payment for doing the Roxy thing properly. Hey, he can sing and is a > damn good plucker, too, maybe next time................I can't wait for an > 801 reunion now. ....okay now lets push for proper releases of old bbc roxy > stuff instead of bickering...Jeff > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > The subliminable footer says: > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:43:13 -0400 From: Rick Subject: RE: [AVALON] Thank you Bill Mac I second Gunter's closing remarks. If remarks are truly going to be conveyed to the band, I for one would like them to kow that the tour was VERY MUCH appreciated by the fans. Not the petty hemming and hawing thats been filling our screens as of late. Sure, who wouldnt want to pay less. But I for one would have paid triple what I did to attend this tour and I didn't get to meet the band or any extra perks. Don't forgot guys, most likely this was the last time we get to see "ROXY MUSIC". What a pity........ The music and memories will last a lifetime. Rick NP Byran Ferry. She's Leaving Home - -----Original Message----- From: G|nter Wandtke [SMTP:redgum1@bigpond.com] Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 7:29 PM To: avalon@smoe.org Subject: Re: [AVALON] Thank you Bill Mac With all the criticism aired, I also feel like reminding of all the bright sides of the Roxy 2001 reunion : 1) Myself and so many others were so happy to see this band together again after all these years. 2) The setlist was almost impacable. Who would have expected to hear them perform all the great hits of their early period again. And the newer material sounded just as good as the old songs in the versions presented. And what a choice to end the concert with FYP, I still tremble remembering it. 3) At their age all the original members presented themselves in remarkable shape. There is so many reunions that are very obviously only done for the money presenting performers well past their heydays. (I remember with a shudder the faded voice of Greg Lake on an "Emmerson Lake and Palmer reunion live performance). Roxy Music deserves any credit for undergoing the crueling routine of a 50 nights 4 continents iteney and still pulling it together very well night after night inspite of obvious signs of tiredness as the tour progressed. I guess we Aussies can call ourselves especially lucky to have had them here, with so many other tours bypassing us. 4) The supporting band was of the finest quality. The band was put roper releases of old bbc roxy > stuff instead of bickering...Jeff > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > The subliminable footer says: > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef] ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:52:06 EDT From: Chandla911@aol.com Subject: [AVALON] Thanks Bill, see you again, don't be a stranger >From: bmaccormick@cix.co.uk (Bill MacCormick) >Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bill MacCormick a fans reply, long post. >Colleen, I've been on this list for over two years. I've just never felt >motivated to post anything before. Phew! Well, I'm glad we got that all sorted. Bill and I seem to agree about the ineptitude/poor performance of SFX; Colleen and I seem to agree the prices were set by the promoters, not the band; she seems to say we're entitled to air our views so long as we stick to the topic, the facts and our own opinions and don't resort to abuse; I genuinely wish other sites would be more like Expressions, run by people like Bill (although fans and Roxy themselves could benefit greatly from being free from contracts enough to have a site run more like Elephant Talk/King Crimson Collector's Club - but let's remember the hell of a time Fripp had extricating himself from the same mire at EG, that name again!). And if it took my provocative 'bollocks' to motivate Bill, I'll try and come up with more in the not too distant future as it's refreshing to know SOMEONE who knows what's what is listening...and able to talk. Best wishes Richard Mills n/p Roxy: Taking Refuge In Pleasure ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:03:46 -0700 From: "Eman 97" Subject: [AVALON] Roxy Ripoff! As to the "extras" that seemed to be hinted at often enough, yes it was a disapointment I am sure. As to the ticket prices... Hmmm. Since when was being a Roxy Fan EVER about being a cheapskate? - --Even when I was completely broke it was about being artistic and glamorous and stylish, which could be done on creativeness and ingenuity. (Or a rich girlfriend ;-)). Ticket prices too much, find a way to earn the money, it's worth it! I think complaints on price are really relative. Do more popular artists deserve that price fairly? Anything is only worth what you are willing to pay for it. I gladly paid $600.00 USD for front row center seats. When the tour was announce, I decided on a psychological budget point for which I would pay for those kind of seats. If needed I had plenty of time to raise the money. The point is, I decided what those seats were worth to me. This wasn't a hippy band. This wasn't a punk band. This wasn't "dollar beer night" somewhere. This was a Roxy Music Reunion, Celebration and Farewell. A "last in a lifetime opportunity"? If I could not have afforded a face value ticket, I had 6 months to sell something, earn the money somehow, whatever. MY CHOICE. My choice. I look at recent reunions/tours of bands that were popular but were just always totally dreadful. As nice a guy as he is, I wouldn't pay $300. a seat to sit front row and watch Paul McCartney. Or the Eagles, Michael Jackson etc. Madonna would cost more I assume... It is my choice, what CONSCIOUSNESS and ethics I choose to bring to my decision to PAY OR NOT PAY, no one owes me cheap tickets as a loyal fan. That is just the way it is. As much as I have read every article or interview I could get my hands on since I discovered Roxy Music, I don't know them, I don't know the ins and outs of their record deals or real life personal finances or contracts. I know my finances, and I know my choice to pay or not pay, no, to Gladly Pay, attend and engage in the appreciation and celebration. I can't get that back. I can always get more money "back." I mean, there are a zillion ways to get extra money. The list of bands that are as worthy as Roxy Music, to "waste" some extra money on....is so incredibly short. In fact it might be a list of 1. The energy expended bitching about the cost, criticizing the band for not being as conscious as the Greatful Dead... That energy could be spent earning back the money working for some entity or charity that pays a little bit for part time help, evenings and weekends (they are out there), or even better, get off the poverty consciousness wheel. When I had no money, I knew a guy who did, and he spent it freely saying "it is only some of this stuff...money" and "if I don't spend it it can't come back to me, hahahah." I didn't like that guy. Then. But as I attain a little personal economy, I never forgot him. My money, my choice, my consciousness, my choice. No regrets mates, totally thrilled at the two concerts I saw, spending for hotels, air flights and more. Got to meet and hang with Ed, Renate, Rob, Tara, and many others from this list. Still smiling. ...Sorry for length, end of rant. ROXY RULE! e _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:59:34 -0400 From: Duarte Mendonca Subject: [AVALON] Brian's suit As an avid reader of GQ I am not surprised to find a reference to Bryan Ferry in the Style Guy section of the November issue (page 158). Bryan's leather suit, so prominent throughout then recent tour, is a Hedi Slimane design (actually it is isn't leather but "black lacquer mineral taffetta". Just in case you were wondering... _______________________ Duarte Mendonga ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V6 #500 **************************** ======================================================================== For further info, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info avalon-digest