From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V6 #406 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Monday, August 27 2001 Volume 06 : Number 406 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [AVALON] Lyrics and their inner meaning ["=?iso-8859-1?q?John=20O'Brien?=] Re: [AVALON] Avalonia - The Collected Works ["Ivor Canning" ] Re: [AVALON] Lyrics and their inner meaning ["tmoq" ] RE: [AVALON] Lyrics and their inner meaning [Michael Hill ] Re: [AVALON] Re: avalon-digest V6 #393 ["anotherphotographer" ] [AVALON] Chicago DJ's on the Radio for Roxy [Maggie Curran ] [AVALON] Just nipping in under the wire [Chandla911@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] Re: For your pleasure/Wasteland - Why shouldn't we... ["Tim ] [AVALON] bryan and eddie ["Duncan Watkins" ] [AVALON] Re: avalon-digest V6 #405 ["Jeff Turner" ] Re: [AVALON] Chicago DJ's on the Radio for Roxy ["Peter Seely" ] [AVALON] SOTW: "Casanova" [Colleen Matan ] Re: [AVALON] Eno Goes Biafra (Jello) and other mind fucks... [Maggie Curr] To leave the list, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon-digest ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:35:03 +0100 (BST) From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?John=20O'Brien?=" Subject: [AVALON] Lyrics and their inner meaning I thought I would add my tuppence worth to the debate. I see varying opinions on this subject throughout the contributors. I dont think that Bryan slaves over a hot pen and paper for every word on every song. I do recognise though that there are many beautifully crafted lyrics throughout his work. There is one thing for sure; there are very few people in the rock/pop music world that has graced their music stand with A4 pages of such eloquently filled word processor sheets. Bryan's lyrics are only a small part of his appeal. They are one of the cogs that rotate beside a class art-house visual impact; a voice with such original expression and tonality, innovative and original music and its barrier pushing production, all part of an engine called style. I don't think any of these stand on their own but together make this one thing that has no equal. I believe Bryan's lyrics are calculated in the sense that they have to fit in with all of the above. They have to flow right with the music, I mean can you imagine the lyrics to If It Takes All Night on a similar soundscape backdrop to Windswept. I have seen/read several interviews with Bryan and he refers to his lyrics as being part of the 'sound' of the record. You can hear this clearly on the Strictly Confidential bootleg where Bryan is making sounds with his voice that almost sound like words. He has taken those sounds and found words that fit those sounds. I know he didn't always write in this way and that much of his earlier stuff does have some of his most interesting lyrics. I have met several of the musicians who have worked with Bryan in the studio and it has always intrigued me what method Bryan uses to get the musicians to play what they play, after all it does say MUSIC by Bryan Ferry. I know he is no Mozart and didn't write down on paper all 5 guitar parts that play throughout Slave To Love and all the other stuff that filled up 56 tracks on a multi-track. The common theme from these discussions was that Bryan is very intuitive and he distinctively knows what fits. During his Mamouna period, he would build up a backing track with a keyboard and rhythm machine to create a mood rather than a tune. He would have a feel for what, for example, Chester Kamen would play within a certain backing track, and what Neil Hubbard's approach would be. He would slowly piece all this together creating a pot pourri of sounds that would blend together and simultaneously make space for each other. Sometimes he would have things in there that would clash or be out of context and he would omit these as he strived for that perfect blend I feel his lyrics are no different to this process. Some things work, some things don't, and he keeps going until it all fits together, not necessarily with some literary meaning. The words he use are not just some poetic opus supported by a backing track, the whole lot is intertwined and sometimes inseparable. Chris Turner made the point that Bryan would laugh at our interpretations, yes I do believe he would have a smile on his face but that would be one of satisfaction. I have read that he likes to leave something for the listener and their imagination so the fact we have 10 different interpretations for his lyrics would make him feel that his words have achieved their goal. He has always admired what he calls 'feel players', a musician who plays intuitively by what he feels and hears but also admires the level of musicianship in musicians like Colin Good, Robin Fowler, & Lucy Wilkins whose technical ability to arrange and reproduce the scores written in front of them. Bryan's lyrics have a similar approach in that "throwaway lines often ring true" but to spend weeks over the words of a song also pays its dividends too. His music can be similar in that their are many instrumental passages that have underlying rhythms, melody and counterpoint. You have to listen deep within the tracks to piece parts together to find these melodies and rhythms, which can sound different, every hearing, and his lyrics, have that same deep search. I think that our personal interpretations of the lyrics and what they mean to us as individuals are a healthy discussion and can sometimes bring out the best in some of our contributors to the mailing list. John OBrien Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:41:47 +0100 From: "Ivor Canning" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Avalonia - The Collected Works Andrew is concerned for everyone's eyesight: > Avalonia Vol 3 " The Mass Debates" Speaking personally, I would toss out the mass debating in favour of more personal opinion and interpretation, which I think is an altogether healthier and more well-adjusted pastime for an internet discussion list. Yours with hairy palms and a big smiley face, Ivor. n.p. Banco del Mutuo Soccorso 'Come In Un'Ultima Cena' ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:49:24 +0000 From: "Andrew Shearer" Subject: Re: [AVALON] MOP One other thing, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this recently. It's almost folklore that Ferry went into the studio to overdub the vocal of MOP straight off after what had seemed an over long backing track had been recorded. It's interesting that this is the same piece that Ferry dedicated to Simon Puxley recently for helping him write it. Does anyone else have any more info? Regards, Andrew _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 07:04:37 -0400 From: "tmoq" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Lyrics and their inner meaning - ----- Original Message ----- From: "John O'Brien" To: Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 6:35 AM Subject: [AVALON] Lyrics and their inner meaning > > I have seen/read several interviews with Bryan and he > refers to his lyrics as being part of the 'sound' of > the record. You can hear this clearly on the Strictly > Confidential bootleg where Bryan is making sounds with > his voice that almost sound like words. He has taken > those sounds and found words that fit those sounds I`ve been trying all weekend to find the time to post this exact point, but you`ve beat me to it. Perfect example. Gene ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:36:49 +0100 From: Michael Hill Subject: RE: [AVALON] Lyrics and their inner meaning I quite agree with John's post. However, having studied this discussion in great detail, another point has occured to me. It is clear that only Bryan knows the true meaning behind his lyrics, but thanks to clever word choice, imagery and a great sense of ambiguity, we can all "read" so much into the text. Our opinions differ based on our own intuitions and personalities, but this only adds to a rich discussion. The fact that Bryan's lyrics have provoked such debate reflect very well on his prowess as a writer. Whatever his intentions, we can see that his lyrics are a treasure trove of interpretation. This is true of all good writers. I noticed Chris brought up the point of Bryan's work in comparison to some of the top poets in history. Although you may not consider him a Keats, Shelley or Larkin, not even these geniuses knew all the possible points that could be brought up from their work. They knew what they wanted to achieve, but in the process almost subconsciously added lines which people would disagree over for years to come. This is exactly why we are discussing Bryan's lyrics in such depth. Interpretation and intention may not necessarily agree, but it makes for a truly interesting insight into the views of a wide range of people. Viva Avalonia! ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 07:34:15 -0400 From: "tmoq" Subject: Re: [AVALON] MOP - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Shearer" To: Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 6:49 AM Subject: Re: [AVALON] MOP > One other thing, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this recently. > > It's almost folklore that Ferry went into the studio to overdub the vocal of > MOP straight off after what had seemed an over long backing track had been > recorded. It's interesting that this is the same piece that Ferry dedicated > to Simon Puxley recently for helping him write it. Does anyone else have any > more info? > The earliest recording we have of MOP is the '73 Air Studios recording. (I assume this was made after Eno left. The only info we have about this recording is "Fall of '73"). But this recording isn`t much different from what eventually ended up being released. It will be included as a bonus track on the upcoming '73 Sheffield Tree. Gene ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:57:28 +0100 From: "anotherphotographer" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: avalon-digest V6 #393 I know I'm a bit late with this. . . . . . but she so easy on the eye . . . she's on the cover of "Penthouse Perfection" (not helped by harp string shadows I must add) and if she's got the the thing (harp) in the van . . . . they might do "Angel Eyes" in Manchester . . . . . roll on the 28th Sept' **(someone else also metioned harp/A'Eyes a while ago) regards young ernie - ----- Original Message ----- From: KB Porter To: Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: avalon-digest V6 #393 > "...none of the Sirens were so gifted ... heck - all they did was look > good ..." > > Heather - I can't stop laughing. > > You are so right. Compared to the Sirens, Julia is primo! I think she > should be the next cover girl! But not all pimped-up like the others. > Julia deserves dignified treatment. > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > The subliminable footer says: > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:14:19 -0400 From: "Grant Goggans" Subject: [AVALON] [OT] King Crimson Atlanta boot -- product advisory I know a few people on-list are interested in King Crimson's current tour, which brought them to Atlanta the night before Roxy last month, so I thought I'd send a little informative post along... Yesterday I went to visit a friend in Anniston, AL, and had the enormous pleasure of meeting Carl Lackey, known to fans of Georgia music as the guitarist for Athens' Kilkenny Cats in the mid-80s. He now owns a super record store in town called Slip Disc. Carl regaled us with stories of touring with the Replacements in the day, and, despite a recent near-bust for boots, had a handful behind the counter (no Roxy) including Laughing Cow's boot of the 7/25/01 Atlanta King Crimson show. Prices were very reasonable -- $15 a single CD, $25 a double. Then I listened to the show. Ouch! Definitely fans only, and sadly, no sale. The music is perfectly audible, but the vocals are like some incoherent foghorn a million miles away. I bought the new I am the World Trade Center instead. So bear that in mind if you're collecting. Laughing Cow usually does a fair job, but not tonight. "We woke up 24 hours later. Yes was still playing. The same song." Grant Goggans http://www.geocities.com/gmslegion _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:49:55 EDT From: ASchulberg@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] [OT] King Crimson Atlanta boot -- product advisory In a message dated 08/26/2001 10:15:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gmslegion@hotmail.com writes: > , had a handful behind the counter (no Roxy) including Laughing > Cow's boot of the 7/25/01 Atlanta King Crimson show. Prices were very > reasonable -- $15 a single CD, $25 a double. > > Then I listened to the show. Ouch! Definitely fans only, and sadly, no > sale. The music is perfectly audible, but the vocals are like some > incoherent foghorn a million miles away. I bought the new I am the World > Trade Center instead. > > Is that latter item a King Crimson boot from the current tour? I have to admit that I have been so centered on the Roxy tour that I've let me attention to KC really slip in the last 6 months or so. Would love to hear what they sound like now. Is there a website for your friend's store? Arnie ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:56:09 EDT From: AMeyersLD@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Julia I must agree with several points raised about Julia. She is extra-ordinarily beautiful, and her harp playing was a great addition, nay, an integralo part, of the ATGB tour. But she really is not well used (um, perhaps I should rephrase that...?) on the current tour. I think she pinch hits keyboards on only one song, her percussion was lost in the mix both times I saw the band, and her backing vocals...well Everybody sings backing vocals on this tour, don't they? Phil, Andy, Colin, Zev, Sarah, Yannick, Chris... I'm not saying she's not talented. I just wish they'd have brought her harp along. Andrew in Chicago ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:17:53 +1000 From: "Gunther Wandtke" Subject: [AVALON] Newbie first posting Hello everybody, I'm Gunter, a German living in Sydney, Australia, and joined the Avalon List only yesterday. I bought my first Roxy Music record in 1977 (Greatest Hits) and later listened a lot to "Viva", with "The Bogus Man" being one of my alltime favourite songs and that live version being so infinitely stronger then the arty version from FYP. Saw Roxy live in Germany 1980, the "Flesh and Blood" tour and remember that it knocked my socks off, when they opened the show with ... "The Bogus Man". I saw the recent Sydney show and supplied John and Emma's "VIVAROXYMUSIC" with most of the Aussie newspaper reviews. One of my favourite songs of Roxy is also "Virginia Plain". Since there appears to be no official archive for the list, I would like to initially request any past postings on "Virginia Plain" ,"Bogus Man" and also "Mother Of Pearl" to be sent to me privately, off-list, thanks in advance to anybody who makes an effort. Also I'd like to get in contact with anybody, who has got the bootleg of the 2001 Glasgow radio broacast and/or a video recording of the 2001 Great Britain TV broadcast and is prepared to send me a copy via trade (with the details of a possible trade worked out individually) Thank you Gunter ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:05:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Maggie Curran Subject: [AVALON] Chicago DJ's on the Radio for Roxy Hello Andrew and Chicago Avalonians: I recall there was to be a broadcast featuring discussion by two Chicago DJs who are huge Roxy Music fans. I believe this was to be broadcast on the eve of Roxy's Chicago appearance. Did this broadcast take place and was this recorded by anyone? And is it available to us? Hoping to hear Yes! Yes! Yes! All the best, Maggie lagrand@excite.com _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 19:11:28 +0200 From: "the bogus man" Subject: [AVALON] rock VIVALDI Hey Igor U gor a good taste about spaghetti rock!! what about PFM? danilo :-))))))))))) > Speaking personally, I would toss out the mass debating in favour of more > personal opinion and interpretation, which I think is an altogether > healthier and more well-adjusted pastime for an internet discussion list. > > Yours with hairy palms and a big smiley face, > > Ivor. > > n.p. Banco del Mutuo Soccorso 'Come In Un'Ultima Cena' > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > The subliminable footer says: > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:19:55 EDT From: Chandla911@aol.com Subject: [AVALON] Just nipping in under the wire ...not sure how long before we peacefully move on to SOTW#2, but wanted to support Colleen's initiative of introducing the concept (having seen it work elsewhere!) and applaud her for being prepared to administrate. So here's my submission: For Your Pleasure It's with some hangdog shame that I confess being late into liking Roxy *enough* to cough up pocket money for anything other than the singles prior to These Foolish Things and Stranded. My best friend Steve Gray or "Nest" bought into Roxy and Jobriath early on, but I was more heavily into Bowie, Ronson and Mott. This meant that while I adored Roxy Music, I prioritised the spending power (limited as it was for a 14-year-old) elsewhere. Worse still, I used to feel I could only afford to buy the tourbooks from the shows but not a ticket - go figure - so a school chum used to buy a programme for me and tell me what the show had been like. So it was only when BF played Royal Albert Hall solo and Roxy reformed for Manifesto that I ever saw them live. A digression, apologies, but the overwhelming effect this has had on my appreciation on the first two albums (which I bought around the time of Country Life) was that they carry still this esoteric, glossy, *expensive* aura for me. I only ever heard the music when at Steve's house and that made it ever so exclusive for me. For Your Pleasure, especially, as the title track of the 2nd album typifies for me this unavailable music. Steve also had the pub mirror with the album cover on it and I would look at that and the LP and fantasise about the glamour of it all. I coveted that mirror so much and would buy one now if I saw one listed. FYP and the other music on the first two albums (Remake/Remodel and Do The Strand, especially) still make up my favourite era for Roxy (bizarre really, seeing as I didn't rush out and buy them) although, like Eno, I name Stranded as my favourite album. Also like Eno (or, at least, as he said at the time), I tend not to delve too deeply into lyrics and find myself singing along phonetically. Often I am singing the words with perfect recall, yet I have no conscious idea of what the song is about as only the sounds are known to me. At least this should save me from diatribes from those who fear I might incur BF's laughter if he should witness my pathetic attempts at lyric analysis (fat chance)? I was delighted by the Englishness somehow of the use of FYP as the live set closer on the 2001 tour (don't know if seeing them three times so far this tour has quite made up for missing the first five tours!) and their ability to bid adieu by saying "Tara". Would they still have used this relatively unsung song for the finale but for this opportunity? Has it been used as a closer before? I love the song but when I hear the words For Your Pleasure used in connection with Roxy, I tend to think not so much of the song, but of that luxurious cover, the exotic sounds contained within and remembering my prurient interest in whether BF was really squiring Amanda Lear and had she really been a man? I was only 14... Richard n/p The Thrill Of It All - CD1 PS Not sure how many words that made, Alan, but I for one was hoping to read something like that. Liking a band cos M Fry does is all very well (I think he's ace), but it doesn't actually explain why... ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:05:44 -0400 From: "Tim Kendrick" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: For your pleasure/Wasteland - Why shouldn't we... >I was wondering if anybody had considered the links between Boys and Girls >and the novels/poetry of DH Lawrence??? >Cheers >Kamaya Damn. and I've been hoping and praying this wouldn't come up! Tim ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:55:34 +0100 From: "Duncan Watkins" Subject: [AVALON] bryan and eddie i was thinking about the 'song deconstruction' of fyp at the weekend while visiting edinburgh to catch some of the 'fringe'. on saturday afternoon, we literally stumbled across eddie izzard doing a spontaneous show, no script, no show basically (well it was free!).'do you know' he said looking at a piece of paper 'all these ideas sounded absolutely f***ing hilarious at 4 o'clock yesterday morning, now i'm not so sure!' he went on to deconstruct his 'comedy routine' which somehow, when over analyzed was not actually funny anymore. it wasn't meant to be broken down like that. we moved on with many others before the end, disappointed. for me the same thinking goes for bryans lyrics, i don't want to analyze them, i'm sure they all conjure up very different 'thought pictures' for everybody on the list. i don't know all the lyrics to every song but i know my mental version of them. i only found out about 3 months ago that it was actually 'cpl 593h'(thanks collette!),it's not important, made no difference to my love of the song. np hula kula (thinking of...well what do you think of dear reader?) duncan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:00:15 -0500 From: "Jeff Turner" Subject: [AVALON] Re: avalon-digest V6 #405 I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed the similarity! Those Captain Kirk sideburns are what really put it over the top. Regards, Jeff Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 21:10:57 EDT From: AMeyersLD@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: avalon-digest V6 #393 Andy, on the other hand, looks a lot like William Shatner these days..... Andrew in Chicago (Playing the Manchester Boot!) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:47:32 -0700 From: "Eman 97" Subject: [AVALON] Eno Goes Biafra (Jello) and other mind fucks... Missing from the coming attractions intro to that Eno article, was the admission from his diary that after his urination into the glass cabernet tomb, Eno mused "I've yet to taste my own piss..." and proceded to. This causes several thoughts. Was that bottle one, or 4? Eno, the great rock/pop/avante/ambient "intellectual"? - --I cannot imagine Bryan Ferry reaching a point of intellectual, drunken....or whatever...curiosity...tasting his own urine and then admitting it publicly. What shocking, ground breaking act of dada is next for Eno? Doo-doo? Which leads me back to the thought before I had my eye polluted by Eno's literal piss-taking. Really, how "intellectual" can this guy be? And can pop music EVER be art? Can it ever be considered on that level? I think not. And not because I say so. But because of the pop (world) aspect of it. Pop by nature being temporal and transient. Here today, forgotten tomorrow. Next step. Does it mean you are an intellectual (Eno) because you read a lot of smart things by smart people? Or could it mean that you slum at a higher level??? (I am sure Eno is intellegent, but there's an aspect you know...) Can reading smart things by "smart" people, make you smarter? Or just mentally jack off to a "higher kink"? Next progression... Does listening to Roxy music make the average music fan smarter? (Not if that is all you do, maybe if you branch out and research the influences etc.) All to say, puhleeze Eno. No wonder I lost interest in you about the time you started hanging out with DEVO. You've done little of interest since Another Green World. Sure Apollo and others were nice. But not head turning. Eno, I think is an Egoist who is also an accomplished poseur. Bryan Ferry and perfectionism.... When ever the question is asked "Did Ferry mean this that way, or do this because...." This is what I believe about Bryan Ferry. I believe he is twice the creative intellect of Eno. I believe he influenced Eno greatly (as did McKay, and McKay inspired Ferry as well). I believe Bryan Ferry, before he stamps "done" on any creation, lyric, melody, stage gesture...that he puts it through his own series of 'quality control' tests...until he is ready to commit to it. This I believe, is why there is legendary amounts of work that have never seen the light of day. And I also believe that if some of the work saw the light of day, one would see glimpses of lameness, stupidity, sycophancy, immaturity, shallowness, pathos, mundanity, imitation etc., in the work. This is because I think Bryan let's himself be inspired by a lot of other influences, and then build up his work (and STYLE) in layers and progressions. (When's the last time we heard Bryan say in a an interview that he "dashed off the ten songs on the album in a two week fit of inspiration on the guitar" ? (Some times a great thing).) I think Bryan aspires to be on a level of art. And I think that accounts for suchs things as monster writer's block on "This Island Earth." And I think he sees his art as his job (as he has applied his father's work ethic to it, and despite fallow periods release-wise, has almost always been working. Just look at his touring schedule at age 54/55!!!) I think Bryan is both exacting, and, calculating (within his aesthetic, certainly not within the market). I think that at some point in the man's past, he performed in front of a mirror until be created the lexicon of stage gestures and movements that work best for his geeky body and sometimes geeky look. I think no detail was ever left unchecked. I think this was all done out of a sense of insecurity. I think Bryan ran to his strengths. I believe, that he is and was shy, and I believe there is also an aspect to his personality that does not believe he was ever good looking enough to be a star....because he always made the extra effort to be presentational... And I think there are more ingenius creative strategies behind BF's work than Eno's. Eno might be "handy in the studio," but when Bryan turns his hand to similar territory (South Downs) he leaves Eno behind. Ferry to me is a mix of high native intelligence, highly researched (studying/accessing new musical and literary material) intelligence and taste, and incredible effort (this cannot be under-estimated), and finally distinct talent. I believe all of the above contribute to Bryan's artistic success...And fueled by the ambition of starting out from some meager beginings. There is incredible concentration and hard work behind the man's...work, and intelligence, creativity, inspiration, consideration... ... ...Drunk or sober, the merits of tasting one's piss, is lost on me. And further why Eno would admit this in a diary, and then admit this in a diary that was to be published??? More to mess with his followers heads? I wonder how many Eno-bees went on to taste their own body water after the release of that diary? Or lay on a mixing board and pour hot oil over themselves, for that matter. e _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:50:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Matan Subject: Re: [AVALON] Avalonia - The Collected Works/SOTW On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Andrew Shearer wrote: > However if in the future we thought this was a worthwhile exercise it > would take great deal of effort to sift through all the posts. Can I > suggest then that maybe any dissucions about songs are prefixed in the > subject line with SOTW for example? That way we can set up rules to > put these mails in a specific folder and it'll be easier to collate. > > Does anybody else think this is a good idea? I think it's a very good idea, and it will also help folks who don't want to read them ID them for deletion. I'm very much enjoying everything posted so far under the rubric of this thread, including--and perhaps especially--the pros and cons of the lyric interpretation debate. I actually don't think every one of Roxy/Ferry's songs lends themselves to close lyrical scrutiny (although I do think "For Your Pleasure" does), but that's part of the fun, and another part of it will be the more musically interesting songs as they take their turn. My thought was that the new song should be posted logically on Sunday evening, and I'll post a new one tonight. I can't see that I would ever close down a discussion on a song--what would the point be of that? Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:54:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Matan Subject: Re: [AVALON] Newbie first posting On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Gunther Wandtke wrote: > Since there appears to be no official archive for the list, I would > like to initially request any past postings on "Virginia Plain" > ,"Bogus Man" and also "Mother Of Pearl" to be sent to me privately, > off-list, thanks in advance to anybody who makes an effort. Welcome, Gunter. Hopefully folks who keep organized personal archives have been able to assist. The list's digests are archived at http://www.smoe.org/lists/avalon. You can't search them, but if you have an idea of when something was posted it's possible to track things down. Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:10:03 -0400 From: "Peter Seely" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Chicago DJ's on the Radio for Roxy Yes, this broadcast did take place and featured calls from two of us, Jas and myself. Coincidentally (or maybe not coincidentally) we both recorded the broadcast. Pete Seely - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maggie Curran" To: Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 1:05 PM Subject: [AVALON] Chicago DJ's on the Radio for Roxy > Hello Andrew and Chicago Avalonians: > > I recall there was to be a broadcast featuring discussion by > two Chicago DJs who are huge Roxy Music fans. I believe this was to > be broadcast on the eve of Roxy's Chicago appearance. > Did this broadcast take place and was this recorded by anyone? > And is it available to us? > > Hoping to hear Yes! Yes! Yes! > All the best, > Maggie > lagrand@excite.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Send a cool gift with your E-Card > http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > The subliminable footer says: > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:50:19 -0700 From: "Eman 97" Subject: [AVALON] Intentionality and Meaning >>Wolfgang Iser's reader response theory suggests that an artist/poet's intentions at the time of writing bear no relevance to the work itself. (now it is has been a while since I read his stuff but I think this is the gist of it) It is the reader - with their own feelings and memories that bring substance and meaning to a piece of writing. Therefore no 'reading' is true or correct - The only meaning within that piece of writing is brought to it by to the person who is reading it at the time. "Intentionality and meaning," boy does this take me back to university. Semantics, Semiotics, structuralism and on and on. But I don't believe this: "intentions at the time of writing bear no relevance to the work itself," at all. The writer's intentions at the time of writer certainly bear some relevance to the work itself. Duh. But, intentionality is not the most important determiner of meaning. Meaning is a collaboration between reader and writer. Ultimately the meaning is determined in the head of each individual reader... An extreme point could be made that a crazy person reads a text and makes the meaning all their own, even if they are just seeing symbols on a page, instead of understanding the fonts as signifying letters, representing words, representing concepts, langue and parole etc. etc. etc. Reading within ones language, is generally a contract. I agree, while reading English, to try and understand in good faith what the writer, writing in English, intended, based on their understanding, and sometimes intended usage of (their) English, with my best understanding of the language, other background factors (era), and the writer themselves. Yes, the reader chooses the meaning, and chooses to consider the writers intention, so it is the readers choice... But I think, aside from arcane literary theories, most readers are reasonable, and trying to gain the meanings of the authors, from direct story telling to indirect i.e. poetry. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:15:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Matan Subject: [AVALON] SOTW: "Casanova" OK, how about "Casanova"--both versions from _Country Life_ and _Let's Stick Together_? As before the discussion is open to anything related to the song, and these are only suggestions: love it? hate it? lyrics/music it changed my life live vs. studio version(s) (if applicable) the video (if any) that reminds me... Casanova (Ferry) You the hero so many times you've loved and didn't linger Now my finger points at you another loser You an island on your own complete in every detail Monumental a precious jewel or just a fool Innovator it's in your mind and blood I watch it simmer I see you're courting more despair no hope not a glimmer Now you're nothing but second hand in glove with second rate now Now you're flirting with heroin or is it cocaine? Casanova is that your name? or do you live there? I know my place is here with you tonight but not together ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:13:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Maggie Curran Subject: Re: [AVALON] Eno Goes Biafra (Jello) and other mind fucks... Eman has IMO captured the essence of Bryan Ferry, his work and his values. Thanks for putting it all into perspective and posting your thoughts. Best regards, Maggie On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:47:32 -0700, avalon@smoe.org wrote: > Missing from the coming attractions intro to that Eno article, was the > admission from his diary that after his urination into the glass cabernet > tomb, Eno mused "I've yet to taste my own piss..." and proceded to. > > This causes several thoughts. Was that bottle one, or 4? > > Eno, the great rock/pop/avante/ambient "intellectual"? > > --I cannot imagine Bryan Ferry reaching a point of intellectual, > drunken....or whatever...curiosity...tasting his own urine and then > admitting it publicly. > > What shocking, ground breaking act of dada is next for Eno? Doo-doo? > > Which leads me back to the thought before I had my eye polluted by Eno's > literal piss-taking. > > Really, how "intellectual" can this guy be? > > And can pop music EVER be art? Can it ever be considered on that level? > > I think not. And not because I say so. But because of the pop (world) > aspect of it. Pop by nature being temporal and transient. Here today, > forgotten tomorrow. > > Next step. Does it mean you are an intellectual (Eno) because you read a > lot of smart things by smart people? Or could it mean that you slum at a > higher level??? (I am sure Eno is intellegent, but there's an aspect you > know...) > > Can reading smart things by "smart" people, make you smarter? Or just > mentally jack off to a "higher kink"? > > Next progression... Does listening to Roxy music make the average music fan > smarter? (Not if that is all you do, maybe if you branch out and research > the influences etc.) > > All to say, puhleeze Eno. No wonder I lost interest in you about the time > you started hanging out with DEVO. You've done little of interest since > Another Green World. Sure Apollo and others were nice. But not head > turning. > > Eno, I think is an Egoist who is also an accomplished poseur. > > Bryan Ferry and perfectionism.... > > When ever the question is asked "Did Ferry mean this that way, or do this > because...." > > This is what I believe about Bryan Ferry. I believe he is twice the > creative intellect of Eno. I believe he influenced Eno greatly (as did > McKay, and McKay inspired Ferry as well). > > I believe Bryan Ferry, before he stamps "done" on any creation, lyric, > melody, stage gesture...that he puts it through his own series of 'quality > control' tests...until he is ready to commit to it. > > This I believe, is why there is legendary amounts of work that have never > seen the light of day. > > And I also believe that if some of the work saw the light of day, one would > see glimpses of lameness, stupidity, sycophancy, immaturity, shallowness, > pathos, mundanity, imitation etc., in the work. > > This is because I think Bryan let's himself be inspired by a lot of other > influences, and then build up his work (and STYLE) in layers and > progressions. > > (When's the last time we heard Bryan say in a an interview that he "dashed > off the ten songs on the album in a two week fit of inspiration on the > guitar" ? (Some times a great thing).) > > I think Bryan aspires to be on a level of art. And I think that accounts > for suchs things as monster writer's block on "This Island Earth." > > And I think he sees his art as his job (as he has applied his father's work > ethic to it, and despite fallow periods release-wise, has almost always been > working. Just look at his touring schedule at age 54/55!!!) > > I think Bryan is both exacting, and, calculating (within his aesthetic, > certainly not within the market). > > I think that at some point in the man's past, he performed in front of a > mirror until be created the lexicon of stage gestures and movements that > work best for his geeky body and sometimes geeky look. > > I think no detail was ever left unchecked. > > I think this was all done out of a sense of insecurity. I think Bryan ran > to his strengths. I believe, that he is and was shy, and I believe there is > also an aspect to his personality that does not believe he was ever good > looking enough to be a star....because he always made the extra effort to be > presentational... > > And I think there are more ingenius creative strategies behind BF's work > than Eno's. Eno might be "handy in the studio," but when Bryan turns his > hand to similar territory (South Downs) he leaves Eno behind. > > Ferry to me is a mix of high native intelligence, highly researched > (studying/accessing new musical and literary material) intelligence and > taste, and incredible effort (this cannot be under-estimated), and finally > distinct talent. > > I believe all of the above contribute to Bryan's artistic success...And > fueled by the ambition of starting out from some meager beginings. > > There is incredible concentration and hard work behind the man's...work, and > intelligence, creativity, inspiration, consideration... > > ... > > ...Drunk or sober, the merits of tasting one's piss, is lost on me. And > further why Eno would admit this in a diary, and then admit this in a diary > that was to be published??? More to mess with his followers heads? I > wonder how many Eno-bees went on to taste their own body water after the > release of that diary? Or lay on a mixing board and pour hot oil over > themselves, for that matter. > > > e > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > The subliminable footer says: > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe avalon > _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V6 #406 **************************** ======================================================================== For further info, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info avalon-digest