From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V6 #404 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Saturday, August 25 2001 Volume 06 : Number 404 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [AVALON] How I know Bryan takes his lyrics seriously ["Martin Stockma] [AVALON] Avalon Videos ["MIKE HALLETT" ] Re: [AVALON] How I know Bryan takes his lyrics seriously ["terrypaulrigz8] Re: [AVALON] How I know Bryan takes his lyrics seriously ["SIMON GALLOWAY] [AVALON] OOTB by Billy Corgan ["SIMON GALLOWAY" ] Re: [AVALON] OOTB by Billy Corgan [JFROXY@aol.com] [AVALON] The deconstruction issue ["Grant Goggans" ] [AVALON] Opener? ["terrypaulrigz8c" ] [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" ["Nigel Holli] [AVALON] For Your Pleasure ["PeteK" ] Re: [AVALON] Interesting Eno article [David Firmin ] Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" [Colleen ] [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" ["Nigel Holli] [AVALON] Re; SOTW [MarlanaK@webtv.net (M.M.K.)] Re: [AVALON] Opener? [ASchulberg@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] Opener? THE MOVIE! ["terrypaulrigz8c" ] Re: [AVALON] Re: Complexities [Colleen Matan ] Re: [AVALON] Re: Complexities [KWil632057@aol.com] To leave the list, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon-digest ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 09:45:59 +0000 From: "Martin Stockman" Subject: Re: [AVALON] How I know Bryan takes his lyrics seriously - ---------- From: "Chris Turner" To: Subject: Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001, 4:48 am I apologise for the terse tone of my last mail. I was shooting from the hip a little, (it is kinda late here) but I do have a serious point to make. Just picked up this apology and whilst I disagree with some of your examples (Psalm - pastiche ?, Keats - a slow writer ?) no-one can dismiss your considered musings. I expect we're all saying much the same thing : It's a mistake to underestimate or overestimate the words in his songs. I do, however, have anecdotal evidence of how seriously Bryan takes his lyrics. Around 1980 I met a lovely carrot-topped gay guy at a dinner party. He had a name like Tim Mack or somesuch - I can find it out - and he was the life and soul of our gathering. We got talking about music and inevitably my passion for the Cool Ruler became the topic of conversation. Tim, who was in TV and name-dropped compulsively yet convincingly, fixed his green eyes upon me and recounted the following amazing tale : A few years previously he's been living in L.A. and hung out with a rag-bag of Brit celebs - Rod'n'Britt, Jackie and Joan etc etc. In this motley crew Tim befriended a "well known designer" ( Price ? Haslam ?) who asked him to do him a big favour. This designer was a great friend of Bryan Ferry, the English pop star, who was distraught over a break-up and utterly "lost" in the City Of Angels. Bel Air's okay if you dig the grave and all that jazz. Bryan need someone to show him around the city, to help him through his grief. Thus Tim became a "walker" for Bryan. Bizarre. But the detail that Tim gave me over the desert wine left me in no doubt that this actually happened, (The rich are different, we all know.) Tim took Bryan to second-hand book stores, trawling for early edition Chandler and Hammett. They drank coffee in numerous cafes. They took in record stores. They talked. Now here's the interesting part. Bryan confessed that he'd hit a devasating writer's block. He couldn't finish a lyric that he'd started three months previously. Each day they met Tim would enquire how the song's going, only to be met with a look of self-loathing from our Cool Ruler. He just couldn't get it right. (The impression given was that he worked on it into the early hours.) After a while Bryan flew back to Europe to record an album and Tim and he didn't really keep in touch, although they bumped into one another occasionally. I asked Tim the obvious question : Do you remember the name of that song he had such trouble with ? "Yeah, it was called This Island Earth. hardly worth all that fuss was it ?!" Not sure whether to laugh or cry or break a bottle over his ginger curls I made my excuses and left the table. And you make your way through the door. You make up your way through the door. I tried to love, tried to find My soul in shadows running blind And restless as the sea Via sidewalks through the haze Wandering as in a maze Lost in number time and space So near and yet so far Castaway as strangers are This island earth And you and me ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 09:55:39 +0100 From: "MIKE HALLETT" Subject: [AVALON] Avalon Videos I know it's probably a long shot - but does anyone know where / how I could obtain a copy of " A Perfumed Sigh" and / or " Bryan Ferry at Cirque Bruxelles" videos - as displayed on the Roxyrama site?? Thanks in anticipation Mike ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 11:10:30 +0100 From: "terrypaulrigz8c" Subject: Re: [AVALON] How I know Bryan takes his lyrics seriously Martin, What a great memory, all this talk of lyrics has made me listen with new ears, TIE (neck tie, hohoho,) is on a tape I have in the car at the moment. When it came on yesterday it struck me that it was possibly one of Bryans best lyrics, the sadness & longing almost palpable. Thanks, a great post. Terry "O" NP: Sasha: Ibiza Boxed. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Martin Stockman To: Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [AVALON] How I know Bryan takes his lyrics seriously > ---------- > > I asked Tim the obvious question : Do you remember the name of that song he > had such trouble with ? "Yeah, it was called This Island Earth. hardly worth > all that fuss was it ?!" Not sure whether to laugh or cry or break a bottle > over his ginger curls I made my excuses and left the table. And you make > your way through the door. You make up your way through the door. > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > The subliminable footer says: > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 11:46:27 +0100 From: "SIMON GALLOWAY" Subject: Re: [AVALON] How I know Bryan takes his lyrics seriously >From: "Martin Stockman" > > Now here's the interesting part. Bryan confessed that he'd hit a devasating > writer's block. He couldn't finish a lyric that he'd started three months > previously. Each day they met Tim would enquire how the song's going, only > to be met with a look of self-loathing from our Cool Ruler. He just couldn't > get it right. (The impression given was that he worked on it into the early > hours.) After a while Bryan flew back to Europe to record an album and Tim > and he didn't really keep in touch, although they bumped into one another > occasionally. > > I asked Tim the obvious question : Do you remember the name of that song he > had such trouble with ? "Yeah, it was called This Island Earth... ...a song that began life during the In Your Mind sessions if you take into account the musicians credited on the inner sleeve. Most likely one of those songs that took him years to finish - Dance Away, To Turn You On, Is Your Love Strong Enough, New Town, The Only Face... SimonG ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:15:41 +0100 From: "SIMON GALLOWAY" Subject: [AVALON] OOTB by Billy Corgan Found an MP3 to download of Billy Corgan soing Out Of The Blue http://www.pumpkins.it/mp3lnk.html Just in the process of getting now. SimonG ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:15:24 +0100 From: "michael ferguson" Subject: [AVALON] "samples" Hi all. Seems that a whole batch of recently posted goods have gone "missing". If anyone is still waiting for a delivery from me please mail me off list. Thanks MIke ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:25:04 +0100 From: "Chris Turner" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Sad words in happy times I don't confuse these two Martin, it was unintentional. Although they sit well together, Wasteland is the darkest, most barren piece in his entire repertoire, whilst Windswept is a joyous thing, his finest compositional piece IMO, particularly when unencumbered by the lyric. Chris - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Stockman" To: Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Sad words in happy times > > A further point : Its a mistake to consider Wasteland and Windswept as one > piece. They're different songs wth different moods and meaning. > > Martino ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:33:22 +0100 From: "Chris Turner" Subject: Re: [AVALON] How I know Bryan takes his lyrics seriously Hi Martin, This Island Earth was worth the effort - a wonderful piece with the lyric as the focus. I don't in any way wish to criticise the sincerity with which he takes his writing; he was, and might still be, a fine and considered writer, and a prime purveyor of three-minute vignettes - he's just not Rimbaud, that's all. I fear there's a danger that we may be heading down the road of canonisation here.. Enjoyed you contribution, as ever. Chris - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Stockman" To: Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [AVALON] How I know Bryan takes his lyrics seriously > > I do, however, have anecdotal evidence of how seriously Bryan takes his > lyrics. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 13:30:13 +0200 From: "the bogus man" Subject: [AVALON] WILD dan DAYS HI! Gang Sorry it this was posted already but I missed hundreds of Avalon e_mails... In the August issue of Record Collector magazine #264 i found an interwiev with Mr Ferry itself.... ciao danitaly :-) (happy cose I foud Milano gig tickets) ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 07:48:39 EDT From: JFROXY@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] OOTB by Billy Corgan In a message dated 25/08/01 12:16:38 GMT Daylight Time, simon.galloway@virgin.net writes: > << Billy Corgan soing Out Of The Blue>> Funny how he should cover that particular song. I remember hearing a Smashing Pumpkins song a few years back and the intro sounded exactly like OOTB. It was pointed out in the review of their album in Q magazine. JF ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 08:21:24 -0400 From: "Grant Goggans" Subject: [AVALON] The deconstruction issue Chris wrote: >On a more prosaic note, whilst I support the right of anyone to say what >they like here, I'm equally sure that not everyone welcomes the huge amount >of traffic these deconstructions might bring. Although only thirteen people >have contributed to the thread, do remember that some of the more verbose >members of this forum have yet to get fully into their stride. Once the >obvious things have been said, and I readily accept that there are many >fine >and thoughtful writers here, most of the subsequent posts (and I do read >them all) are often either repetitious or fanciful. And dare I say >sometimes >these exchanges are at times a touch...pretentious? Let's not find the >Emperor's new clothes, eh? I'm not sure why anyone would object to more traffic on this list, or even sure how anyone could object, without being selfish. ("I got too many e-mails in my box and no time to read them!") If we're talking about people trying to express from their heart how very important a song is to them, I'm not sure how it could possibly be repetitious to the writer. To us readers, maybe, who have heard a similar "it changed my life" story before, but who are we to suggest that the latest comment is no different from the one that preceded it. I don't mind the additional traffic at *all* -- it isn't my server space, after all, and I delete a digest after I read it. If a thread becomes boring, and threads frequently do, it takes far less time and causes fewer hurt feelings, to just hit page down and ignore it than to try to arrest it. And anyway, doesn't Colleen have the power to end discussion of the SOTW before beginning the next? And if pretentious lit crit isn't your bag (it isn't mine, either), Colleen did suggest several other fields of discussion... > love it? hate it? love it > lyrics/music more impressed by the Eno cacaphony at the end than the lyrics > it changed my life not really, but it enhances it > live vs. studio version(s) (if applicable) more impressed by the performance on the current tour > the video (if any) don't think I've seen one > that reminds me... that the first time I heard it, I misheard "Tara" as "Turn round," which totally changes the meaning of the end. "We woke up 24 hours later. Yes was still playing. The same song." Grant Goggans http://www.geocities.com/gmslegion _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 07:30:28 -0500 From: "Rod LeCloux" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Interesting Eno article - ----- Original Message ----- From: David Firmin > A couple highlights: > *Eno's fondness for women with big bottoms... > http://www.smh.com.au/news/0108/18/entertainment/entertain5.html At the very end of the article it mentions the re-issue of his back catalog. Are these going to be the new and improved digitally remastered versions? Rod ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:18:42 +0100 From: "terrypaulrigz8c" Subject: [AVALON] Opener? NP: Just another high, this would have made the most fantastic opener for Siren, It's such a statement, incredible. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 15:15:36 +0100 From: "Nigel Hollis" Subject: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" Chris Turner wrote :- "What I'm challenging is what appears to be an accepted attitude here that somehow all of these songs are deeply personal or autobiographical, or allegoric or have thousands of subtle hidden depths etc.. I quite agree with the whole of this posting. I have always loved Roxy for their music, style, mystique, allure, the sheer poetry of the earlier lyrics and the escapism associated. I therefore like to hold them afar, distant, on a pedestal near the horizon. To me, they are the "Royal Family" of rock/pop/art and I need them to be aloof and always out of reach. Therefore, I too am sometimes of the opinion that some people look far too deep for things that aren`t there. I do not think it necessary that every lyric that Mr Ferry writes should be "X -rayed" and dissected to the last atom. How do we know that he hasn`t sat down (on occasions) and wrote down the first words that entered his head? perhaps even with a bottle in hand. I tend to take most at face value and therefore prefer to peruse from a more lighthearted stand point. For all we know he may be playing with us - having fun! Having said all of that I must admit I still enjoy reading the various interpretations and they are all very well written. We do have some class acts amongst our Avalonians don`t we? Regards to all. Nigel. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 07:22:46 -0700 From: "PeteK" Subject: [AVALON] For Your Pleasure Pure speculation. Interesting. But we can only speculate about the meaning and intent. Maybe that is its purpose. Running out of time. NP Alan Hull "Squire" 1975. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 07:34:25 -0700 (PDT) From: David Firmin Subject: Re: [AVALON] Interesting Eno article Let's hope for the new and improved digitally remastered versions! If you can find it, pick up Eno Box II: Vocals. The remastering sounds fantastic. It has 55 tracks and some rare b-sides like The Lion Sleeps Tonight. Steer clear of Box I: Instrumental. Thanks, David - --- Rod LeCloux wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Firmin > > A couple highlights: > > *Eno's fondness for women with big bottoms... > > > http://www.smh.com.au/news/0108/18/entertainment/entertain5.html > > At the very end of the article it mentions the > re-issue of his back catalog. > Are these going to be the new and improved digitally > remastered versions? > > Rod *** Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 10:41:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Matan Subject: Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Chris Turner wrote: > There seems to be an inherent assumption in the way we are approaching > this; that Ferry is some master wordsmith whose writing works on > multiple levels and has to be examined to the nth degree. I don't > necessarily agree that this is always the case. What I'm challenging > is what appears to be an accepted attitude here that somehow all of > these songs are deeply personal or autobiographical, or allegoric or > have thousands of subtle hidden depths of meaning. I do not think you can say that "[t]here seems to be an inherent assumption in the way _we_ are approaching this" (emphasis added) as the folks who have written about the lyrics have done so in no way other than to say that this is how the song speaks to them, and they have provided nothing other than wholly individual readings. You and others may disagree with this approach, and that side of the discussion is especially welcome as well. However, I am not sure such a sweeping generalization about whether such approaches are, to oversimplify, good or bad can (or should) be made based on the discussion of one song. No one here has claimed to speak for anyone other than his/herself. > obvious personal resonance. So why is there the assumption that For > Your Pleasure has to apparently be chock full of allegory and be > deeply personal to the writer, as every contributor to the thread has > suggested? Can this and all Bryan's songs not simply be good tunes > with clever wordplay, some with meaning and some not, without having > some mandatory profundity all of the time? I just want you to > consider that there COULD be a more mundane explanation. I feel that Of course there could be a more mundane explanation. No where in my own comments about the lyrics did I say that FYP was "deeply personal" to the writer. Nor did Nigel in his, as I recall, or several others. However some people have indicated that the lyrics may be deeply personal to them. That's different. Is it now going to be considered an invalid response? > Maybe the Old Boy would have a big laugh at the amateur metaphysical > poets and psychology interns here. I have heard dozens of Ferry > interviews and have seen many articles and cuttings, and he has > rarely, if ever, suggested his own songs have any significant meaning, > personal or otherwise(in contrast to his repeated praise for other > artists' songs and performances) . So why do we think that they do? If I think you are missing the point, Chris. This isn't about authorial intent. This isn't a fact-based exercised designed to ferret out The True Meaning of Every Song or to say that every detail of Bryan Ferry's own life can gleaned from an exegesis of the lyrics. It's a small part of a larger possible discussion and it focuses in this small area on what the lyrics mean to us as listeners. And frankly, I could give a rat's ass what Ferry thinks of this discussion. More to the point, it's irrelevant. > On a more prosaic note, whilst I support the right of anyone to say > what they like here, I'm equally sure that not everyone welcomes the > huge amount of traffic these deconstructions might bring. Although > only thirteen people have contributed to the thread, do remember that > some of the more verbose members of this forum have yet to get fully > into their stride. Once the obvious things have been said, and I Help me, as Mr. Ferry once said, to understand this: thirteen thoughtful (if not over-thought) posts about the lyrics of a Roxy Music song are going to lead the list down the road to perdition? Thirteen on-topic posts are preferable to 47* one line responses (with the 6 previous responses still appended) of "Outer Mongolia"? to 28* posts about bands which have nothing to do with Roxy Music at all? to 19* posts pointing out "lust" was typed for "list?" (*all numbers random and chosen only for effect) > readily accept that there are many fine and thoughtful writers here, > most of the subsequent posts (and I do read them all) are often either > repetitious or fanciful. And dare I say sometimes these exchanges are > at times a touch...pretentious? Let's not find the Emperor's new > clothes, eh? People aren't allowed to be pretentious in Avalon? Are you trying to shut the list down or something? > Now Colleen. Time for our quarterly skirmish. I realise this is your > baby, and an opportunity for you to impose the weekly agenda, but it's > perfectly acceptable for me to hold a different opinion, and to > express it, even if the flippant tone of my last message undermined my > real point. You are just as capable of deleting my mails as I am of > deleting yours, so please, spare me the hectoring manner which > constantly undermines the valuable insight you often bring to this > group. Chris, I am very sorry that you have chosen to take this in a personal direction. I would have made my original response to you to anyone who posted what you did disparaging people's contributions, regardless of whether I had started the thread or not. Furthermore, your comment that this is "an opportunity for [me] to impose the weekly agenda" is uncalled for. I think it should be abundantly clear that I, of all people, support the right of people to hold differing, if not unpopular, opinions. You can't have forgotten how much shit I had to take from people, including you, because I didn't like _As Time Goes By_. To somehow now insist that I find it unacceptable that someone holds an opinion which is different than my own is, at best, disingenuous. What I was commenting on in my original reply to you, and to some extent in this one as well, is not your different opinion but your disparaging attitude towards people who have contributed to the lyric discussion. That is unless "a load of cobblers" has somehow been transformed into a compliment. I don't mind disagreement and discussion, but I do mind it when the discussion turns into sniping and name-calling. There was no need to insult people just because you didn't think much of their thoughts on the subject. As for the issue of deleting posts unread, please note that at no time did I complain that I didn't want to read your posts, as you did with respect to the lyric discussions. There is a difference. Naturally, if folks have since reconsidered and the list feels that the song of the week discussion is in retrospect a bad idea it can be stopped of course. Obviously at no time was it intended to annoy list members. Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 15:57:42 +0100 From: "Nigel Hollis" Subject: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" Carol wrote :- P.S. Did the meeting with Nostradamus go as well as predicted? No... he sent me an email saying turn to page 624 paragrah 3..the bit where it says that he wouldn`t be turning up! Ciao, Nigel ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 10:42:55 -0500 (CDT) From: MarlanaK@webtv.net (M.M.K.) Subject: [AVALON] Re; SOTW Chris, wrote---( Why is the assumption FYP be chocked full of allegory & deeply personal to the writer as: every contributor to the thread has suggested? ) Just maybe from those who felt like telling what the song felt to them!-------- May I boast just a mite now? I wrote a poem in haste , about feelings over a tragedy in my life. I entered that poem in a contest, low & behold the poem is now in a book of poetry "Journey to the Stars" & also going to be put on a cassette to be read. Yes, writings can be very personal , yet they can be funny personal, anything .We can attest to that by what is placed on the list here. I have books of writings I've written ,from poetry to self-help books. You may be surprised to hear this. as I'm sure some of my posts wouldn't convey this . My best writings come when I sit alone, paper in hand & start reflecting on life in general & the words come spewing out onto the paper. Marlana............................. PS. I have to write anywhere from 15 to 20 cards a month to strangers in hopes my words will comfort them. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 11:45:35 EDT From: ASchulberg@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Opener? In a message dated 08/25/2001 9:15:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, terrypaulrigz8c@supanet.com writes: > NP: Just another high, this would have made the most fantastic opener for > Siren, It's such a statement, incredible. > > > Oh, no. It's the perfect closer for a song cycle that begins with LITD, takes the singer (and listener) through love's highs and lows and then ends on the upbeat of "Nightingale" and then the cynical "Just Another High". The sequencing of that album is VERY deliberate, IMHO. Arnie ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 17:37:49 +0100 From: "terrypaulrigz8c" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Opener? THE MOVIE! Arnie, In that case should it not have been sequenced like this: Act 1: LITD. obvious. Act 2: BEB. we are now at our Romoe's London pad, "you can guess the rest". Act 3: Could it happen to me?, Romeo wonders after she has left, lipstick traces on a coffee cup. Act 4: Nightingale: Evening aproaches as Romeo sits idly eyeing the phone, as the moon rises in comes the call, he rushes to answer it, it's her, but what is this, his smile fades. (End of the first side). INTERVAL Act 5: She Sells. She explains she is from Japan and is a modern art dealer, but has a husband at home. Act 6: Whirlwind, our Romeo rushes to the street, angry & forlorn, he becomes lost in the streets, it starts to rain. Act 7: End of the Line. Alone again our Romeo chastens himself for his foolishness once again. Act 8: Sentimetal Fool. He trys hard not to regret the previous night, a night so joyous and full of hope, but realises it was Act 9: Just Another High. Finale, the curtain falls. That was great fun, thanks for the idea. Terry "O" NP: Just Another High. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Opener? > In a message dated 08/25/2001 9:15:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > terrypaulrigz8c@supanet.com writes: > > > > NP: Just another high, this would have made the most fantastic opener for > > Siren, It's such a statement, incredible. > > > > > > > > Oh, no. It's the perfect closer for a song cycle that begins with LITD, takes > the singer (and listener) through love's highs and lows and then ends on the > upbeat of "Nightingale" and then the cynical "Just Another High". The > sequencing of that album is VERY deliberate, IMHO. > > Arnie > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > The subliminable footer says: > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:40:58 EDT From: CSOlive123@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Opener? THE MOVIE! Terry, great imagination, thanks for making me laugh!! Collette ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:45:08 -0400 From: KB Porter Subject: [AVALON] Re: Complexities Wait Chris - just what are you onto here? "What I'm challenging is what appears to be an accepted attitude here that somehow all of these songs are deeply personal or autobiographical, or allegoric or have thousands of subtle hidden depths of meaning." Chris, you have overstepped your boundary with the above statement. I assure you that many Avalonians do not think "that somehow all of these songs are deeply personal or autobiographical, or allegoric or have thousands of subtle hidden depths of meaning." You say you are challenging this "accepted attitude". There is no "accepted attitude" to be challenged since no consensus exists at the collective level here. You continue by saying: "... songs about love or loss (which I think is fundamentally what all songs are really about) ...". Love, loss - aren't those subjects individually and universally dealt with on a "deeply personal or autobiographical, or allegoric" level? Whether an author, a reader, talker or listener, whatever we produce, whatever we take-in, all things we sense are filtered through a complex system. All activity is the product of one's self, and one's self is the product of all activity! Indeed, there exists more than exponential "thousands of subtle hidden depths of meaning". "So why is there the assumption that For Your Pleasure has to apparently be chock full of allegory and be deeply personal to the writer, as every contributor to the thread has suggested?" Has every contributor to the FYP thread suggested it is "chock full of allegory and be deeply personal to the writer"? I missed that. But to answer your question I must first ask you, why do you feel there is an assumption, suggested by every contributor, that FYP is "chock full of allegory and be deeply personal to the writer"? Isn't that is your imposition? Last night I had planned to write, today, about FYP from a musical point of view, to see if it augmented or detracted from the analysis given in my FYP post. I was planning to expand the discussion! Now I won't. I had wondered if anyone would give stats on the frequency of FYP's live performances given, and how many official releases there have been (when and where details). I was hoping either you, J'OB, Simon, Ivor, or any other contributor would take the task on, but now, I don't care. "... some with meaning and some not, without having some mandatory profundity all of the time? " Again, this is your assumption and imposition. I did not read on this list where anyone said that Roxy/Bryan Ferry songs are written with "mandatory profundity". I hazard to say their catalogue consists of throw-away, clichi, nonsense, smart, intelligent, obvious, clever, intangible, funny, outrageous, weird, well thought about, and not so well thought about, as well as poorly thought about lyrics, compositions, attitudes. I do not believe anyone is about to be canonized for their 'perfection'. Ferry is no deity, his work is flawed. But most of his work sits well with me. Chris, do not confuse or equate that a love of Ferry's music is directly related to how one feels about the person, Bryan Ferry. The man and his work are two different things. It is impossible to totally separate the two in our discussions, but most individuals do effectively differentiate between Ferry and his work. There is no muckrake or exposi about Mr. Ferry's private life going on here - unless, of course it is in your mind! "Maybe the Old Boy would have a big laugh at the amateur metaphysical poets and psychology interns here." Chris. We are all amateur. The day you cease to learn, grow, expand your horizon, is the day you cease to be an amateur. Regarding the "metaphysical poets and psychology interns" on the list who have responded to the FYP thread, please name names. You have disparaged a small collective of individuals on this list. Individuals who have feelings - just like you - individuals who tried to do something constructive in terms of discussion. It is only fair that you be very specific in your destruction. Finally, there is a way to say things thereby making your voice heard while not belittling an other's sincere, well-meant efforts. You should have merely joined in the discussion (keeping in mind, discussion does not evolve into 'right' and 'wrong') and written that there are many perspective in which to view RM's/BF's work (as if we didn't already understand that). You could have stated what they are, then you could have inserted why you think the particular song under discussion is, in your opinion (inherently understood as 'your opinion' due to the nature of discussion), perhaps best looked at from a particular angle. Further more, you should not assume that since a person presents one angle to the group discussion that the writer is implicitly saying they believe their perspective is the only one which exists or should exist. If you want a comprehensive, complete analysis of a song you must understand that no one is going to write a dissertation on the subject, and that it is the cooperative effort of the individual group members who are making the discussion 'complete'. Stifled by Stato, K.B.Porter ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 13:08:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Matan Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: Complexities On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, KB Porter wrote: > Last night I had planned to write, today, about FYP from a musical > point of view, to see if it augmented or detracted from the analysis > given in my FYP post. I was planning to expand the discussion! Now I > won't. I had wondered if anyone would give stats on the frequency of > FYP's live performances given, and how many official releases there > have been (when and where details). I was hoping either you, J'OB, > Simon, Ivor, or any other contributor would take the task on, but now, > I don't care. But why deny yourself the pleasure of writing, and many of us the pleasure of reading, something so well-suited to the purposes of this list just because it might not meet other list members/'/s approval? This is one of the things I really hate to see come out of our discussions--neutral, if impassioned, conversation about music (because isn't the music the reason we're all here?) is shot down by out of place sniping and the like, and folk who may have been mustering up the courage to post or taking the time to put some effort into something interesting deciding to not participate after all. Aren't we all adults here? Can't different viewpoints and opinions manage to co-exist without conversations turning ugly and people feeling as if they will be mocked for contributing? Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 13:14:17 EDT From: KWil632057@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: Complexities .......and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Jonathan ;0) In a message dated 25/08/01 17:45:37 GMT Daylight Time, kbporte@attglobal.net writes: > Wait Chris - just what are you onto here? > > "What I'm challenging is what appears to be an accepted attitude here > that somehow all of these songs are deeply personal or autobiographical, > or allegoric or have thousands of subtle hidden depths of meaning." > > Chris, you have overstepped your boundary with the above statement. I > assure you that many Avalonians do not think "that somehow all of these > songs are deeply personal or autobiographical, or allegoric or have > thousands of subtle hidden depths of meaning." You say you are > challenging this "accepted attitude". There is no "accepted attitude" > to be challenged since no consensus exists at the collective level here. > > You continue by saying: "... songs about love or loss (which I think is > fundamentally what all songs are really about) ...". Love, loss - > aren't those subjects individually and universally dealt with on a > "deeply personal or autobiographical, or allegoric" level? Whether an > author, a reader, talker or listener, whatever we produce, whatever we > take-in, all things we sense are filtered through a complex system. All > activity is the product of one's self, and one's self is the product of > all activity! Indeed, there exists more than exponential "thousands of > subtle hidden depths of meaning". > > "So why is there the assumption that For Your Pleasure has to apparently > be chock full of allegory and be deeply personal to the writer, as every > contributor to the thread has suggested?" > > Has every contributor to the FYP thread suggested it is "chock full of > allegory and be deeply personal to the writer"? I missed that. But to > answer your question I must first ask you, why do you feel there is an > assumption, suggested by every contributor, that FYP is "chock full of > allegory and be deeply personal to the writer"? Isn't that is your > imposition? > > Last night I had planned to write, today, about FYP from a musical point > of view, to see if it augmented or detracted from the analysis given in > my FYP post. I was planning to expand the discussion! Now I won't. I > had wondered if anyone would give stats on the frequency of FYP's live > performances given, and how many official releases there have been (when > and where details). I was hoping either you, J'OB, Simon, Ivor, or any > other contributor would take the task on, but now, I don't care. > > "... some with meaning and some not, without having some mandatory > profundity all of the time? " > > Again, this is your assumption and imposition. I did not read on this > list where anyone said that Roxy/Bryan Ferry songs are written with > "mandatory profundity". I hazard to say their catalogue consists of > throw-away, clichi, nonsense, smart, intelligent, obvious, clever, > intangible, funny, outrageous, weird, well thought about, and not so > well thought about, as well as poorly thought about lyrics, > compositions, attitudes. I do not believe anyone is about to be > canonized for their 'perfection'. Ferry is no deity, his work is > flawed. But most of his work sits well with me. Chris, do not confuse > or equate that a love of Ferry's music is directly related to how one > feels about the person, Bryan Ferry. The man and his work are two > different things. It is impossible to totally separate the two in our > discussions, but most individuals do effectively differentiate between > Ferry and his work. There is no muckrake or exposi about Mr. Ferry's > private life going on here - unless, of course it is in your mind! > > "Maybe the Old Boy would have a big laugh at the amateur metaphysical > poets and psychology interns here." > > Chris. We are all amateur. The day you cease to learn, grow, expand > your horizon, is the day you cease to be an amateur. Regarding the > "metaphysical poets and psychology interns" on the list who have > responded to the FYP thread, please name names. You have disparaged a > small collective of individuals on this list. Individuals who have > feelings - just like you - individuals who tried to do something > constructive in terms of discussion. It is only fair that you be very > specific in your destruction. > > Finally, there is a way to say things thereby making your voice heard > while not belittling an other's sincere, well-meant efforts. You should > have merely joined in the discussion (keeping in mind, discussion does > not evolve into 'right' and 'wrong') and written that there are many > perspective in which to view RM's/BF's work (as if we didn't already > understand that). You could have stated what they are, then you could > have inserted why you think the particular song under discussion is, in > your opinion (inherently understood as 'your opinion' due to the nature > of discussion), perhaps best looked at from a particular angle. Further > more, you should not assume that since a person presents one angle to > the group discussion that the writer is implicitly saying they believe > their perspective is the only one which exists or should exist. If you > want a comprehensive, complete analysis of a song you must understand > that no one is going to write a dissertation on the subject, and that it > is the cooperative effort of the individual group members who are making > the discussion 'complete'. > > Stifled by Stato, > K.B.Porter ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V6 #404 **************************** ======================================================================== For further info, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info avalon-digest