From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V6 #403 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Saturday, August 25 2001 Volume 06 : Number 403 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [AVALON] RE: avalon-digest V6 #402 ["Paul W. Floyd III" ] [AVALON] Walk out in Style [KRNCHSE@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" [CSOlive1] Re: [AVALON] YAF ["The Numberer" ] Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" ["Chris T] Re: [AVALON] Walk out in Style [KRNCHSE@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" [Colleen ] Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" ["Tim Ken] Re: [AVALON] Re : For Your Pleasure ["Keith Shockley" ] Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" ["Chris T] Re: [AVALON] Re : For Your Pleasure ["Philip Adams" ] Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" [Julie Lo] RE: [AVALON] Re : For Your Pleasure ["Guy Lawley" Subject: [AVALON] RE: avalon-digest V6 #402 'For your pleasure: In our present state - part false, part true, (like anything) - we present ourselves. The words we use, tumble all over your shoulder, gravel hard and loose.' I interpret those lines, in a 'universal' sense, to mean "as is everything, we are imperfect, and we show/display ourselves. Our words, our conveyances are course, and flow freely". This in essence is the 'human condition' _________________________________________ I agree Ring the bells that still will ring forget your perfect offering there is a crack, a crack in everything that's how the light gets in L. Cohen _________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:48:58 EDT From: OBrienFerry@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: avalon-digest V6 #393 In a message dated 24/08/01 18:25:01 Romance Daylight Time, ASchulberg@AOL.COM writes: << God bless you, John. That cannot have been an easy job. Arnie >> You have Emma to thank for most of the research J.O'B. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 22:12:15 +0100 From: "Guy Lawley" Subject: RE: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" Colleen, this has already proved itself an excellent idea, but the richness (and sheer volume) of the posts leaves me thinking it might need to be Song Of The Fortnight or even Song Of The Month. You (we) might even consider running each Song Of... thread until the moderator (you) decides that it has burnt out. Great stuff, Avalonia Assembled! Guy still thinking about an actual response as such to FYP - -----Original Message----- From: owner-avalon@smoe.org [mailto:owner-avalon@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Colleen Matan Sent: 23 August 2001 02:32 To: avalon@smoe.org Subject: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" The first song of the week is "For Your Pleasure" from _For Your Pleasure_. It's been playing non-stop in my head for a few days now, and it's the last thing many of us here heard the last time we had a night with the boys, so let's give it a whirl. The discussion is open to anything related to the song, but something things to start folks off in case you're feeling shy: love it? hate it? lyrics/music it changed my life live vs. studio version(s) (if applicable) the video (if any) that reminds me... "For Your Pleasure" (Ferry) For your pleasure In our present state Part false part true Like anything We present ourselves The words we use tumble All over your shoulder Gravel hard and loose There all night lying With your dark horse hiding Abhorring such extremes You're rubbing shoulders With the stars at night Shining so bright Getting older But you'll wake up soon And fight In the morning Things you worried about Last night Will seem lighter I hope things Will turn out right Old man Through every step a change You watch me walk away Tara tara.... ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 17:28:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Matan Subject: RE: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Guy Lawley wrote: > Colleen, this has already proved itself an excellent idea, but the > richness (and sheer volume) of the posts leaves me thinking it might > need to be Song Of The Fortnight or even Song Of The Month. Tri-Tri already raised this question and my response remains the same--that if the discussion remains active, of course it can be "held over" another week. Based on my past participation in a similar series of threads, a week is usually enough (and that list has 4x as many people as are on Avalon). I also said, although perhaps not quite so clearly, that the introduction of a new song doesn't mean the discussion of the old(er) songs(s) has to cease. It's actually meant to be a pretty loose and free-wheeling suggestion for discussion. > Great stuff, Avalonia Assembled! I agree--I'm really looking forward to reading more responses to this and the other songs. Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 17:38:45 EDT From: OBrienFerry@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" would A wasteland be a good song to discuss as it is the shortet lyrics Ferry has written and I can just see pages of stuff written here about those 8 lines When love's gone There's no one A waste land A ghetto When love's gone A tear on A waste land Your pillow J.O'Brien ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:57:08 -0700 From: David Firmin Subject: Re: [AVALON] YAF If we're talking Roxy lyrics, Your Application's Failed would have the shortest lyrics of any Roxy song. Paul said he and Phil worked it out on guitar. He "wrote" it when he was turned down for a job. on 8/24/01 2:38 PM, OBrienFerry@AOL.COM at OBrienFerry@AOL.COM wrote: > would A wasteland be a good song to discuss as it is the shortet lyrics Ferry > has written and I can just see pages of stuff written here about those 8 lines > > When love's gone > There's no one > A waste land > A ghetto > When love's gone > A tear on > A waste land > Your pillow > > J.O'Brien *** ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:11:19 EDT From: KRNCHSE@aol.com Subject: [AVALON] Walk out in Style CATWALK stars got together at the Victoria and Albert Museum last night to celebrate the cobbling skills of couturier-to-the-stars Jimmy Choo, at a dinner in aid of Tommy’s Campaign. Design stars including Arkadius, Ben de Lisi and Amanda Wakeley mixed with the likes of Bryan Ferry, Nicky Haslam and EastEnders star and new girl-about-town Tamsin Outhwaite, before watching models teeter down the catwalk wearing Choo’s latest creations beneath outfits lent by the designers present. Tommy’s Campaign, which raises funds for research into miscarriages, premature birth and still birth was started eight years ago by St. Thomas’ Hospital and has become a favourite charity for many Choo fans, including the Duchess of York. “It was a fantastic evening,” said one onlooker. “Everyone looked really happy and there was a great atmosphere. And everybody loved the shoes. Jimmy has lots of very loyal fans.” ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:17:08 EDT From: CSOlive123@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" Hi John, Wasteland is one of the saddest songs I've listened to and I love how it leads into Windswept. Collette ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:21:25 -0700 From: "The Numberer" Subject: Re: [AVALON] YAF Those words speak volumes. You see how great things "could" have been if Ferry allowed a little more elbow room. Amazona, A Song For Europe and "Here Come the Warm Jets" are prime examples. TN >From: David Firmin >Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org >To: >Subject: Re: [AVALON] YAF >Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:57:08 -0700 > >If we're talking Roxy lyrics, Your Application's Failed would have the >shortest lyrics of any Roxy song. Paul said he and Phil worked it out on >guitar. He "wrote" it when he was turned down for a job. > > >on 8/24/01 2:38 PM, OBrienFerry@AOL.COM at OBrienFerry@AOL.COM wrote: > > > would A wasteland be a good song to discuss as it is the shortet lyrics >Ferry > > has written and I can just see pages of stuff written here about those 8 >lines > > > > When love's gone > > There's no one > > A waste land > > A ghetto > > When love's gone > > A tear on > > A waste land > > Your pillow > > > > J.O'Brien _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:30:36 +0100 From: "Chris Turner" Subject: Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" Windswept was written during what Ferry has said was one of the happiest times of his life. Which shows what a load of cobblers all this lyrical deconstruction is. Chris - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 11:17 PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" > Hi John, > Wasteland is one of the saddest songs I've listened to and I > love how it leads into Windswept. > > Collette ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:35:36 EDT From: KRNCHSE@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Walk out in Style Should've added that this is an old piece of news from 12/3/01. Regards, DM well i'm ...... ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:47:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Matan Subject: Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Chris Turner wrote: > Windswept was written during what Ferry has said was one of the > happiest times of his life. > > Which shows what a load of cobblers all this lyrical deconstruction > is. Does it? Tragedy can only be written when one is sad? And comedy only when one is laughing? And, leaving metaphysics aside for the moment, is the value in a work of art contained solely in the intent of its author? Or does the audience for such a work also play a part in assigning it meaning? And, leaving the theoretical aside for the moment (since I only dabble in lit crit and defer to those here with more practice), here's a practical question: why not just delete those posts unread instead of responding by merely disparaging what is an interesting (to many), on-topic discussion? Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:54:38 -0400 From: "Tim Kendrick" Subject: Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" " >Windswept was written during what Ferry has said was one of the happiest >times of his life. > >Which shows what a load of cobblers all this lyrical deconstruction is. > >Chris I'm very much enjoying the essays that have been posted so far on FYP, though the sceptic in me thinks that deconstructing pop songs, where the lyrics tend to mean less, not more, than they seem to, ( if indeed they seem to mean anything at all in the first place ) isn't always especially useful.( As a reader of poetry, including surrealists like Breton and Peret, I could devote a long paragraph to what I mean by meaning, but I won't! ) And in Ferry's case, once you understand that he's essentially a verbal collagist he rarely strikes me as QUITE as clever a lyricist as we on Avalon tend to credit him with being. But to suggest deconstruction is meaningless because he wrote a sad song when he was ( you say, Chris, ) happy seems to me bizarre. You seem to think it means simply making biographical connections with the lyrics. Not at all. Tim ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:06:14 -0700 From: "Keith Shockley" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re : For Your Pleasure - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jankiewicz, Jim To: Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 8:27 AM Subject: RE: [AVALON] Re : For Your Pleasure If you have the cd, you can hear "Don't Ask Why" at the 6:25 mark of the song. Keith > [Yes, it is Judi Dench who does the 'Don't Ask Why' at the end of the song.] > ? Is this only heard on the remastered FYP? Forgive but I have no idea > what you guys are referring to and I thought I 'knew' this song. So, after > the 'Taras' start echoing a female voice can be heard at some point? (now > be nice out there...) > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > The subliminable footer says: > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 05:48:37 +0100 From: "Chris Turner" Subject: Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" I apologise for the terse tone of my last mail. I was shooting from the hip a little, (it is kinda late here) but I do have a serious point to make. There seems to be an inherent assumption in the way we are approaching this; that Ferry is some master wordsmith whose writing works on multiple levels and has to be examined to the nth degree. I don't necessarily agree that this is always the case. What I'm challenging is what appears to be an accepted attitude here that somehow all of these songs are deeply personal or autobiographical, or allegoric or have thousands of subtle hidden depths of meaning. Of course you don't have to be sad to write a sad song, that's exactly my point (although you probably have to have experienced sadness) Not only has he written songs about love or loss (which I think is fundamentally what all songs are really about) whilst in happy personal circumstances, but Ferry has often written songs in a pastiche style (like say, Bitter Sweet, or Triptych or Psalm for example), the connection being that none of these necessarily have any obvious personal resonance. So why is there the assumption that For Your Pleasure has to apparently be chock full of allegory and be deeply personal to the writer, as every contributor to the thread has suggested? Can this and all Bryan's songs not simply be good tunes with clever wordplay, some with meaning and some not, without having some mandatory profundity all of the time? I just want you to consider that there COULD be a more mundane explanation. I feel that the use of words could be as much about how they sound and fit together as much as their literal or even metaphorical interpretation. I liked Tim's description of Ferry as a collagist. Remember that invariably in Ferry's style of work the music (often someone else's) comes first and then a lyric has to be fitted to it. Maybe the Old Boy would have a big laugh at the amateur metaphysical poets and psychology interns here. I have heard dozens of Ferry interviews and have seen many articles and cuttings, and he has rarely, if ever, suggested his own songs have any significant meaning, personal or otherwise(in contrast to his repeated praise for other artists' songs and performances) . So why do we think that they do? If Ferry wrote the bulk of FYP in a week, did he really pore over every_single_couplet like some latter-day Keats - or did he just make some of it rhyme and scan to meet his record company deadline? Neither scenario seems wholly inconceivable to me. It's not that Ferry's writing doesn't move me. There's not an album in his catalogue that doesn't hold some personal meaning for me. I still, after a gazillion plays, get choked up by Really Good Time or Just Another High (I won't try to convince you that that writing isn't heartfelt...), and the shock of hearing FYP itself strike up in Dublin, (before its impact got dulled by repetition), was the most moving moment I have experienced in 25 years as a fan, just pipping Smoke Gets In Your Eyes at Golders Green. Hell, if I was wholly a pragmatist, I doubt whether Roxy would appeal at all - you do have to have romance in your soul with this music. On a more prosaic note, whilst I support the right of anyone to say what they like here, I'm equally sure that not everyone welcomes the huge amount of traffic these deconstructions might bring. Although only thirteen people have contributed to the thread, do remember that some of the more verbose members of this forum have yet to get fully into their stride. Once the obvious things have been said, and I readily accept that there are many fine and thoughtful writers here, most of the subsequent posts (and I do read them all) are often either repetitious or fanciful. And dare I say sometimes these exchanges are at times a touch...pretentious? Let's not find the Emperor's new clothes, eh? Now Colleen. Time for our quarterly skirmish. I realise this is your baby, and an opportunity for you to impose the weekly agenda, but it's perfectly acceptable for me to hold a different opinion, and to express it, even if the flippant tone of my last message undermined my real point. You are just as capable of deleting my mails as I am of deleting yours, so please, spare me the hectoring manner which constantly undermines the valuable insight you often bring to this group. Chris ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 07:01:45 +0100 From: "Philip Adams" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re : For Your Pleasure > I was always heard this as "you did'nt ask why".. must give it a listen. But then I used to think a certain Ferry lyric went "you cooked up the books I'll bet you planned it all" ok, which song? answers on a postcard, please Philip > If you have the cd, you can hear "Don't Ask Why" at the 6:25 mark of the > song. > > Keith > > > > [Yes, it is Judi Dench who does the 'Don't Ask Why' at the end of the > song.] > > ? Is this only heard on the remastered FYP? Forgive but I have no idea > > what you guys are referring to and I thought I 'knew' this song. So, > after > > the 'Taras' start echoing a female voice can be heard at some point? (now > > be nice out there...) > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > The subliminable footer says: > > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > > unsubscribe avalon > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > The subliminable footer says: > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 07:06:56 +0100 From: "Philip Adams" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: SOTW - ----- Tara was also the name of the home of ancient Irish kings. ( Ref; Avalon) Philip > Depending on where you're from,seems that "Tara", has different meanings > for us all. Interesting to see all the ones written on the summation's > of their FYP.---- Tara ( girl ) a friend of mine. There is even > Tara-bulus, the 2nd largest city in Lebanon , north of Beirut. also > being called Tripoli. Probaly founded about 700 B.C. > Marlana...................................... > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > The subliminable footer says: > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 00:20:07 -0700 From: Julie Long Subject: Re: [AVALON] (the first) song of the week: "For Your Pleasure" Chris -- I agree - for this reason: it's impossible for me to divorce Bryan/Roxy's lyrics from the music that accompanies them. I can't calculate or even really express how important the 2 are togther, far greater than 1 +1 =2. Come to think of it he is an enormously gifted lyricist particularly when compared to his contemporaries. But the magical thing that might be called 'genius' in some circles happens with the music, not without it (IMO). Julie Chris Turner wrote:There seems to be an inherent assumption in the way we are approaching this; > that Ferry is some master wordsmith whose writing works on multiple levels > and has to be examined to the nth degree. I don't necessarily agree that > this is always the case. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 08:29:47 +0100 From: "Guy Lawley" Subject: RE: [AVALON] Re : For Your Pleasure "Your choker provokes a picture cameo" ? Mother of Pearl? Guy lacking e-postcards, sorry - -----Original Message----- From: owner-avalon@smoe.org [mailto:owner-avalon@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Philip Adams Sent: 25 August 2001 07:02 To: avalon@smoe.org Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re : For Your Pleasure > I was always heard this as "you did'nt ask why".. must give it a listen. But then I used to think a certain Ferry lyric went "you cooked up the books I'll bet you planned it all" ok, which song? answers on a postcard, please Philip The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 08:48:17 +0000 From: "Martin Stockman" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Sad words in happy times Colleen is perfectly right, I'm afraid, Chris. As a self-styled poet I can attest that there is little relationship between one's personal state and the words that populate the blank page. Throwaway lines often ring true. The dark subconscious, the black dog, can surface on the sunniest day. And I absolutely agree with Avalonions who've applauded this return to more cerebral matters. Lyrical deconstruction, and Colleen's weekly proposition, bring out the best in this group. A further point : Its a mistake to consider Wasteland and Windswept as one piece. They're different songs wth different moods and meaning. Martino On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, Chris Turner wrote: > Windswept was written during what Ferry has said was one of the > happiest times of his life. > > Which shows what a load of cobblers all this lyrical deconstruction > is. Does it? Tragedy can only be written when one is sad? And comedy only when one is laughing? ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 03:51:12 EDT From: Chandla911@aol.com Subject: [AVALON] Old chestnut humor >That's the "Warped Leatherezz" boot, I believe. I've never seen a CD copy, >but the vinyl pops up on eBay from time to time. >Grant Vinyl crackles, too... Richard n/p The Look Of Love - V/A Burt Bacharach ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V6 #403 **************************** ======================================================================== For further info, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info avalon-digest