From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V6 #247 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Saturday, June 23 2001 Volume 06 : Number 247 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [AVALON] Live trades. ["Judy Kaufman" ] Re: [AVALON] Memories of the first night at Wembley ["Martin Stockman" ] Re: [AVALON] Live trades ["Grant Goggans" ] [AVALON] Setlist [Daniel Atterbom ] [AVALON] Wow. [lorelei@zoom.co.uk] Re: [AVALON] Setlist ["A.L. Jepson" ] [AVALON] Jet Cover, Jack Kirby & DC ["Grant Goggans" ] [AVALON] Re; Richard's review [MarlanaK@webtv.net (M.M.K.)] To leave the list, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon-digest ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 03:14:55 -0500 From: "Judy Kaufman" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Live trades. Colleen Matan ventured: > Obviously duplicating all of them isn't feasible, but certainly the ones > worth treeing would distinguish themselves by the audio quality, setlist, > and/or historic importance. And since it's not like copying material > which has been commercially released as a discrete product, it falls > within the guidelines Gene has so kindly drawn up. > > Others' thoughts? Perhaps the best performance of each song. Judy ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:22:11 +0000 From: "Martin Stockman" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Memories of the first night at Wembley * Such a rich sound ! Colin, Zev, Chris, Paul and Lucy wrap the songs in a deep velvet groove allowing the non-salaried members to do their virtuoso pieces. The mix works better than any Roxy tour and I've seen 'em all. * The dancers are a curio. Part Saturday Night at The Palladium, part La Cage Aux Folles. The Anthony Price is Right. Majorettes (a la ghastly Midnight Hour video) in the middle of the set, the girls dance, fixed-smile, blonde-bob wigs, behind Thundersticks; one isn't entirely sure that they aren't part of the video backdrop. Kitsch or cool, un coup de theatre ou un coup de fou ? Whilst the jury is out on this we can be sure that their pink flamingo feathered boa return for LITD and Strand is a triumph. the band studiously ignore them as they strut and twirl around them. Deluxe and delightful, my role is to serve you. * Bryan's voice, despite strange unconfirmed reports from rainswept Manchester, was in fine fettle. He looked fit and up for it. A tour de force. * The set is a good three songs shorter than the one I enjoyed in Dublin. Dreamhome for Avalon is a fair swap but the cutting of If There Is Something is a cruel call. Problem number More Than This will, in all probability, never be aired again, which is a shame; the Maestro's impression of Chris Turner jumping on a cat from his dormitory window will not be missed but I find it sad that Manzo's sonic guitar (that kicks in at 2.52 on the CD) will not delight these shell-likes again. Forevermore. * The band start on a big rocker and end on an avante garde, somewhat elegiac, number. A witty contrast to tradition. For Your Pleasure allows each member a fond farewell, a curtain call, one is left wanting more but cogniscant that this was the end. We are spared that tedious moment when some punters remain clamouring for a further encore as the house lights go up. * In less than twelve hours we do it all again. Cruising 'crosstown to an aircraft hangar off the North Circular. (What a toilet Wembley is ! ) Cheery Avalonions, everywhere I look I see your face, I hear your name its all over the place. The thrill of it all indeed. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:23:25 +0000 From: "Martin Stockman" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Express Review : worth reading A pal of mine called Jeremy Novick is the Music hack for the Daily Express and he wrote the following review about Glasgow. Worth reading not just for his unadulterated love of Roxy but also for the despair he imparts for a modern world that deifies Travis. June 15 LIVE Roxy Music **** SECC, Glasgow Frankly, my dear, I don9t give a damn. Who cares if Roxy Music9s reunion was inspired by a tax bill, a concern about the Greenhouse Effect or Gus Poyet signing for Spurs. The best band that ever there was (don9t you just love these impartial critics?) were back and while doubts persisted, they were outweighed by the joy. But could Ferry, at 56, still cut it? Could Andy Mackay? Would Phil Manzanera remember to hit his regulation number of bum notes? Listen, it9s been 18 years since they toured When the lights dimmed and we heard that familiar chinking glasses and party chatter - the opening to Re-Make/Re-Model, a noise that wasn9t so much a song opening as a statement of intent - you9d have had to be a soulless soul not to have felt the hairs on your neck shiver ever so slightly. Of course, they all looked depressingly good. Sharp and stylish, Ferry slipped effortlessly into lounge lizard mode, changing jackets to go over the leather strides - predictably the white tuxedo got the cheer - while Mackay was a revelation on oboe and sax. The requisite dancing girls filled in the spaces. Any Roxy crowd is going to be split between two camps: those tastemeisters who know that their first two albums are the finest records ever made and the misguided souls who go for the smooth mainstream soul/pop of the later years. In Glasgow there was no doubt that where crowd9s sympathies were - distressingly, the dreaded On The Radio song got the biggest cheer of the night - but by the time we got to an exhilarating Editions Of You, the 8,000 crowd were ready to "Woooo" on cue with the stinky sirens. The set slipped between the two sections - Virginia Plain, Song For Europe, Love Is The Drug, Avalon, Jealous Guy - and, allowing for a half hour or so warming up period, they blew hot. Things ended on a very Roxy note. Eschewing the big show stopping exit, they left us with the spooky, dischordant For Your Pleasure and as its fading refrain of "Old man, through every step I change. You watch me walk away Tara " filled the cavernous arena, a bittersweet mood filled the air. The problem, you see, is that the return of Roxy makes you think about Travis and that9s just depressing. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:47:53 +0100 From: iwathen@cwctv.net Subject: [AVALON] 1 ticket Saturday 079 4615 4623 [Begin forwarded message.] Received: from smoe.org ([209.58.179.86]) by smtp.cwctv.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.447.44); Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:01:59 +0100 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id MAA24267; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.10); Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:50:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id MAA24225 for avalon-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:49:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.cwctv.net (smtp-outbound.cwctv.net [194.6.2.138]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-jane) with ESMTP id MAA24220 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:49:45 -0400 (EDT) From: iwathen@cwctv.net Received: from cwctv.net ([172.16.33.42]) by smtp.cwctv.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.447.44); Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:50:32 +0100 To: avalon@smoe.org Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:50:32 +0100 Subject: [AVALON] ticket Sat. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Liberate TVMail 2.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <0c8233250161661DTVMAIL12@smtp.cwctv.net> X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/mixed by demime 0.97c X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain Sender: owner-avalon@smoe.org Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Return-Path: owner-avalon@smoe.org long story etc. earlier forwarding appears to have failed, 2nd row sat. 1 ticket, call 079 4615 4623 imogen. [Begin forwarded message.] Received: from notesmta-01.eu.nabgroup.com ([62.172.139.36]) by smtp.cwctv.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.447.44); Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:52:20 +0100 Received: by notesmta-01.eu.nabgroup.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id 80256A73.00412610 ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:51:35 +0100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NAG@INET From: Imogen.Wathen@eu.nabgroup.com To: iwathen@cwctv.net Message-ID: <80256A73.00412461.00@notesmta-01.eu.nabgroup.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:49:05 +0100 Subject: msg from imogen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Imogen.Wathen@eu.nabgroup.com hi chris, more normal typing possible now 'cos i'm at work! just got through to beaux, he can't make it saturday, turns out when i saw his message of the list looking for a ticket and assumed he could go, he was looking for one for me! anyway, just to let you know, i'll only be using one of the saturday tickets for myself so if anyone else wants just one ticket for saturday, it will be available. no matter what, as i've asked you for them, i will pay for them both if no other takers emerge - but do please let others know if they would like the ticket. thanks again for letting me have the tickets - i will post on the list re: the spare ticket if you like (let me know), i didn't want to just go ahead and message without letting you know, looks like bad form for me to advertise your ticket!! hope you get the chance to answer me today at above e-mail (my work) as it's alot easier than when i'm at home - i just have a TV connection to the list there and have to select letters one at a time with a remote control from a grid onscreen, takes ages! looking forward to saturday, best wishes, imogen. p.s. after work hours, can only pick up on "iwathen@cwctv.net", it will be late tonight or early tomorrow when i log on (on the razz again tonight!); otherwise e-mail address is as you'll see at the top of this message. feel free to forward this message to list if it's useful... ______________________________________________________________________ The information contained in this message is confidential and may also be privileged. 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All financial transactions or instructions must be carried out in accordance with existing mandates and product terms and conditions. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:03:00 +0100 From: "thom.wallace" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Live trades, no tree. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Colleen Matan To: Avalon Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 12:57 AM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Live trades. > Now that many of us are so delighted to learn what is and what may be > available out there, I think it'd be brilliant if these audio versions > were also made available to the list via a CD tree. Sorry Collen, but that is a non starter. The friend of mine who made the recordings has made them available to me as long as I do the following: a) That anything similar I obtain through trading is also made available to him. b) That I do my best to keep them out of the hands of people who will then try and make a financial profit from them. c) That they are not made part of an internet CD tree by myself or anybody with whom I trade them. As he took the time and risk to do these recordings I only think that it is fair that I go along with him on this as I did with his recordings from the ATGB tour. Perhaps if things go well over the coming months with the possibility of obtaining recordings from the other legs of the tour through trades he may be persuaded to go along with Judy's idea of a cd featuring the best performance of each song from his own recordings, but I wouldn't put any money on it. There was a time when he considered subscribing to the Avalon list, but was put off by the amount arguing that frequently erupts on list, though he has enjoyed meeting the odd Avalonian when we have attended gigs together over the last couple of years. It now seems that there will be a possibility of him also obtaining recordings of shows from Birmingham and Wembley for trade in the near future. Personally I am in favour of the odd CD tree and have contributed to them and gained through them in the past, however if I make an agreement with someone when I obtain a recording then I stick to it. I'm sure that there will be a tree at some point from recordings made on this tour, but it won't be these ones I'm afraid. However if I obtain some stuff from another source who has no objections I would consider puting it forward to become part of a cCD tree. Enjoy the concerts, Tom. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:07:07 +0200 From: Daniel Atterbom Subject: Re: [AVALON] Memories of the first night at Wembley At 09.22 +0000 1-06-23, Martin Stockman wrote: >* The set is a good three songs shorter than the one I enjoyed in Dublin. >Dreamhome for Avalon is a fair swap but the cutting of If There Is Something >is a cruel call. Problem number More Than This will, in all probability, >never be aired again, which is a shame; the Maestro's impression of Chris >Turner jumping on a cat from his dormitory window will not be missed but I >find it sad that Manzo's sonic guitar (that kicks in at 2.52 on the CD) will >not delight these shell-likes again. If Avalon and More Than This do not work they ought to included Chance Meeting and bring back If There Is Something, if not The Bogus Man. NP Pyjamarama (single version). Heck, they ought to play that one too. Yes I like Viva!. Daniel ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 05:39:00 EDT From: Etherealana@cs.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Further reductions to Roxy set planned Oh my goodness, I busted a gut!!! And that my dears is dangerous for a woman of my age(31)!!! ANA :) ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 05:47:41 EDT From: Chandla911@aol.com Subject: [AVALON] Confessions of a Window Cleaner - long post Forgive me Father for I have sinned... OK, so at long last, I made it to see a Roxy show (Wembley June 22) after reading all the reviews from others elsewhere with green envy (confession number 1). Can't imagine what it must be like to see reviews of UK shows when you're living overseas - interminable wait or, I guess, something that might never come your way? Anyway, confession number 2 - I had not allowed myself to hope too much of this tour. We do all know they are doing it for the money rather than because they think 18 years is the correct waiting time before uncorking this particular vintage? That is a given, isn't it? And do we care, so long as we get to re-live it all over again (or maybe get a chance to see it for the first time)? 'Course not... But, despite eulogies a-plenty, I had gone with some fears of disappointment. Oh, can I interrupt myself to tell a quick anecdote? One of my companions last night is a lovely guy who's as camp as (...you complete with the simile of your choice). Looking at the merchandise stall, he said very loudly: "Nah, I'll wait until later in the year when David Cassidy comes here." This woman in her mid-forties spun round and laughingly enquired: "Here?". He confirmed that - remarkably - DC is playing Wembley Arena in November. She immediately looked across to her husband and put on such a pleading face. "Please?" she asked him. Her hopeful face (a teenager once more) and his, an expression of grave resignation, were pictures to behold...so funny. Oh, and if you were the woman who asked what dress size the pink 1st album T-shirt equated to, only to be deflated when told they were a roomy one-size fits size 18, you are BEAUTIFUL! Confession #3 - lust. Oh God, I've become A Jepson again...do they pump aphrodisiac gases into the air at Roxy shows? Right, where was I? Oh yes, Roxy Music...they were BRILLIANT. I mean, they're in their mid-50s (although somewhere, as has been said before, there is a picture of Bryan Ferry in a loft somewhere that is so rotten...) and they are never going to prance across that stage like the Stones. But then they never did. Musically the whole show is well conceived and quite, quite brilliant. Fewer songs than earlier in the tour, but who's complaining? Here's the set list: Re-make/Re-model, Street Life, Ladytron, While My Heart Is Still Beating, Out Of The Blue, A Song For Europe, My Only Love, Oh Yeah, In Every Dreamhome A Heartache, Tara, Both Ends Burning, Mother Of Pearl, Jealous Guy, Editions Of You, Virginia Plain, Love Is The Drug, Do The Strand, For Your Pleasure. Despite all the praise for the TGPT, (here's confession #4) I hadn't realised just how great he would be. He was bloody fantastic! And although Colin Good was last to leave the stage at the end, it's a mere few seconds after TGPT walks away from the drums to rapturous applause (I thought). Does anyone know when TGPT was first coined? As for dancers/non-dancers, this observation: I had seats on the side (which is where I wanted them to be) and had a great overall view. Below me, there were seats on the floor and, as soon as RM came on, one third of the floor rose to standing where they remained for the whole 1 hr 40 minutes. Around half-way through the set, the remainder of the audience rose also. I cannot begin to tell you how static they remained for the whole show. Apart from a few diehards at the very front, the vast majority of the audience that was standing were doing just that - standing. Can ANYONE explain that to me? That's not being imbued with the spirit of rock'n'roll, that's not living forever young and never growing old...that's standing up when you could see perfectly well sitting down. There will be some who will argue that standing is the optimum position for dancing, or at least a good start position, but why did everyone remain so frozen for the whole show? As a man with a devout love of the music played last night (confession #5 coming right up), I moved around in my seat waving my hands around, air guitar, air drums, the lot... All 98% of the standees did was oblige the people behind them to stand also...shame on them! If you're gonna dance, I say there should be visible evidence... The other observation was the numbers of empty seats...there's been lots of talk about "sell-out tour" but the truth is, while agencies might have bought up all the tickets, there were hundreds of empty seats (mostly at the very back - I am NOT counting the banks of empty bleacher seats to the sides of the stage). Yep, I do mean hundreds... My friend (the one with the love for David Cassidy?) works in a London ticket agency. He is now going Saturday and Sunday as well for free because of the huge numbers of seats left over that they now accept they will not sell. This didn't affect my enjoyment of the show one iota but, from the beginning, I have been thinking this tour would have been much better presented in theatres rather than arenas. Imagine if the show last night had been in Brixton Academy (great for dancing!) or Hammersmith Apollo...so much better. Lastly, I had a vivid sense of dC)jC vu. Bryan speaks: "I donbt normally do dedications but ..." - surely not, he's not going to do a Roxy version of The Only Face for Lucy like the last time I saw him saying he doesn't normally do dedications? - but no: "...this one is dedicated to Simon who helped me write it." It was of course Mother of Pearl. That's all from me - wasn't it enough? I had promised myself not to write a review, as I know there will be others with greater attention to detail. But I have urged my 10-year-old daughter Charlotte to write down everything she can remember about last night. If she does, I'll transcribe as we might all learn something from a pretty informed younger pair of eyes. No? Richard n/p A Night At The Opera - Queen (I've been thoroughly transported back in time!) ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:03:45 +0100 From: "A.L. Jepson" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Live trades. Which one has the best sound quality? Alan "thom.wallace" wrote: > > If anyone has obtained audience recordings from the tour and wish to arrange > trades for recordings for other shows please e-mail me off list. So far I > have recordings from: > > Dublin (audio) > > Glasgow (audio) > > Newcastle (audio & Video) > > Manchester (audio & Video) > > These are either already in my hands or on the way over the next couple of > weeks. If anybody has a recording from any of the other shows get in touch. > > cheers, > tom. > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > The subliminable footer says: > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 06:36:25 -0400 From: "Grant Goggans" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Live trades >Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:57:23 -0400 (EDT) >From: Colleen Matan >Subject: Re: [AVALON] Live trades. >Now that many of us are so delighted to learn what is and what may be >available out there, I think it'd be brilliant if these audio versions >were also made available to the list via a CD tree. I don't presume to >speak for others, but I suspect it'd be very welcome indeed, especially >amongst the folks who won't be able to see one of the reunion shows. > >Obviously duplicating all of them isn't feasible, Oh, I disagree. It will just take a while. We should get around to treeing the Australian shows in 2004... Whoever wants to set one up should know you can count on me to assist with the North American distribution. I've started two and am helping with a third and, if I may be so bold, spreading the music out to people who otherwise can't hear it just seems like a decent thing to do. - --G. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:46:41 +0200 From: Daniel Atterbom Subject: [AVALON] Setlist Since Eno is not on the tour they ought to add "Casanova" to the setlist and dedicate it to him. :-) Or they ought to do a Brian Eno cover, like "Here come the warm jets". Daniel ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:52:42 +0100 (BST) From: lorelei@zoom.co.uk Subject: [AVALON] Wow. I'm not going to forget that in a hurry. I won't spend a long time reviewing the concert. Just to say that it exceeded all my expectations. As it began, and I realised that this band who had been so important to me for what seemed like such a long time were finally together again, I couldn't stop the tears. I couldn't get to the front, as my seat turned out to be in block D, and the security wouldn't let us through the gates (grrr!) so my sister and I spent most of the gig gyrating about halfway back in the arena. I really regret not being able to meet any of you. I assume you were all up at the front. I tried looking around to see if I recognised anyone, but I couldn't see any familiar faces. Anyway, the whole band were wonderful. Andy's and Phil's playing was magnificent, especially when they got their chances to show off on Tara and various other bits. (Andy did, however, look a bit like a tomato that was about to burst.) I was pleased that TGPT got such a great welcome. And it was great to hear Bryan singing my internet pseudonym in "Editions of You" ;-) That's about all I can think of for now. - -- Laura Get your own zoom email - click here - http://www.zoom.co.uk/ ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:53:08 +0100 From: "A.L. Jepson" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Setlist Was Casanova written about Brian Eno? Alan Daniel Atterbom wrote: > > Since Eno is not on the tour they ought to add "Casanova" to the setlist > and dedicate it to him. :-) > > Or they ought to do a Brian Eno cover, like "Here come the warm jets". > > Daniel > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > The subliminable footer says: > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 07:11:33 -0400 From: "Grant Goggans" Subject: [AVALON] Jet Cover, Jack Kirby & DC Before my hackles get well and truly raised, does anyone know a site where this Jet album cover can be seen? >Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:56:19 +0200 >From: Daniel Atterbom >Subject: Re: [AVALON] Jet Cover, Jack Kirby & DC >In order to start a debate, and some of my British friends like Guy on the >this list have heard this before :-), IMHO Kirby is vastly overrated. Very >little of his work is of merit. But I am in a minority on this. > >Of the American comicbook artists working in the 40's to 60's, very few can >be considered geniuses... Wow. That's not just misinformed, that's massively offensive. One of the main criteria of genius is the ability to inspire other people. Now, I'm no musician (but if we have any musicians on this list, chip in), but I can call Ferry a genius, and his collaborators equally so. (Well, apart from Waddy Wachtel, anyway.) When I sit down and listen to most any Roxy song closely (as opposed to terrifying my fellow drivers on GA 400 with my off-key wailing), I am *amazed* by what a great lyricist Ferry is, and how well and how original the songs are written. "Mother of Pearl" makes me think "Wow, I wish I could could write something that powerful." I spent a couple of years in college trying to learn keyboards and guitar because of the inspiration I took from a few musicians. I failed mightily, but I tried to create music because a few geniuses (genii?) in the pop/rock field inspired me to give it my best. I cannot create music; it is beyond my mediocre talents. But I can draw comics. You know why Kirby's considered a genius? Because Jack Kirby inspired **every single person who's got a job in American comics right now** to get out a pencil and draw. Every last one of them. If they claim he didn't, then they're a punk like Frank Cho, looking to start debates and win publicity. Never mind the *millions* of kids who doodled and imagined what the universe is like based on Kirby's visuals. I am not capable of reading any of my collected Fantastic Four or Mr. Miracle compilations cover-to-cover. It only takes about forty pages before I have to put the book down, and go to my studio and draw. I don't have any time to read when I have things to create. Why do I think that? Because Kirby tells me so. As indeed he tells an entire blasted industry. Therefore he is a genius, and if you would claim Carl Barks is one based on his cultural impact, then you are blind to neither see Kirby's cultural impact nor give him the credit he is due. You don't like his panel composition or his hands or his visual effects? Fine; I always thought he drew Thor a little smaller than he should be myself. But saying "Very little of his work is of merit" is the least sensible statement this list has seen since Monquiboy went back up his tree, and a personally offensive one. *I* draw because of Jack Kirby. (And Schulz and Massimo Belardinelli.) How dare you call his work without merit? >Others, like Steve Ditko, Jim Steranko and most of the Golden Age artists >that I've read, are people that are readable, but not great. *eyes fall out of head* You just don't know when to quit, do you? - --G. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 07:19:36 EDT From: LeeSullivn@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Wow. . . . so I guess you had a really good, really good, really good, REALLY good time? Andy may have looked like a bursting tomato, but GOD how he blew! Used his WX(7?) wind controller on OOTB for the first time. I'm glad you young'uns are getting a taste (a very strong taste) of what they were like in their heyday. And how nice for us old lags . . . Lee S ____________________________________________ Easily distracted? Displacement activity a problem? Me too. Going to: www.LeeSullivan.co.uk won't help either . . . ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:49:20 +0200 From: Daniel Atterbom Subject: Re: [AVALON] Jet Cover, Jack Kirby & DC At 07.11 -0400 1-06-23, Grant Goggans wrote: >and if you would claim Carl Barks is one based on >his cultural impact, then you are blind to neither see Kirby's cultural >impact nor give him the credit he is due. It's easy to win this argument. The Ducks comics sell more copies per week in Scandinavia (with a population of 20 millions), 131,600 copies in Sweden alone, then most monthly American comic books do in the States. That is 4 x 131,600 = 526,400 copies of the Donald Duck weekly a month in Sweden, a country with less then 9 million people. Few American comic books outsell that in a market that is about 30 times bugger. If you then other Europeans countries we're talking millions and millions every month. The biggest producer of Disney comics in the world is Egmont in Copenhagen and they use Barks' work as the model they work from. The Disney stores in the US do not even sell duck comics. From my point of view, Northern Europe, Jack Kirby has made little impact. His comics do not sell in European countries, U.K. excepted. Hergi, Goscinny, Uderzo, Franquin et all of the Franco-Belgian artists have left a much larger impact on Europe then Kirby. Their work, as well as Barks, are reprinted in Europe. Exibitions are being held, stamps are being issued, their deaths are front-page news in Swedish newspapers and is on the evening news. Is Kirby being held in high esteem in the US? When Seattle-based The Comics Journal published the "Top 100 Comics of the Century" it reads like: > 1) Krazy Kat by George Herriman > 2) Peanuts by Charles Schulz > 3) Pogo by Walt Kelly > 4) Maus by Art Spiegelman > 5) Little Nemo in Slumberland by Winsor McCay > 6) Feiffer by Jules Feiffer > 7) Donald Duck by Carl Barks > 8) Mad by Harvey Kurtzman & various > 9) Binky Brown Meets the Holy Virgin Mary by Justin Greene >10) The Weirdo stories of R. Crumb >11) Thimble Theatre by E.C. Segar >12) EC's "New Trend" war comics by Harvey Kurtzman & various >13) Wigwam Bam by Jaime Hernandez >14) Blood of Palomar by Gilbert Hernandez >15) The Spirit by Will Eisner >16) RAW, edited by Art Spiegelman & Francoise Mouly >17) The ACME Novelty Library by Chris Ware >18) Polly & Her Pals by Cliff Sterret >19) The sketchbooks of R. Crumb >20) Uncle Scrooge by Carl Barks >21) The New Yorker cartoons of Peter Arno >22) The Death of Speedy Ortez by Jaime Hernandez >23) Terry and the Pirates by Milton Caniff >24) Flies on the Ceiling by Jaime Hernandez >25) Wash Tubbs by Roy Crane >26) The Jungle Book by Harvey Kurtzman >27) Palestine by Joe Sacco >28) The "Mishkin" saga by Kim Deitch >29) Gasoline Alley by Frank King >30) Fantastic Four by Jack Kirby & Stan Lee ** >88) Jack Kirby's "Fourth World" comics Two Barks entrees, and three the Los Bros Hernandez albums, before Kirby. I rest my case. Daniel ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 07:45:08 -0400 From: Rick Subject: RE: [AVALON] Jet Cover, Jack Kirby & DC I think it's pretty funny how a thread can get off subject and have a life of its own, but I found I just had to comment on this one. Grant, RIGHT ON! Having grown up with a very high interest in comics, for both story content and artwork, I was always drawn (no pun intended) back to Jack Kirby and Stan Lee's work. It's one thing to praise someone's work, but quite another to discount someone's entire body of work in a single statement like "without merit"! Who the flip are you? I've never read or seen any of your "work"! Grant, I'm with you on this one. 'Nuff Said - -----Original Message----- From: Grant Goggans [SMTP:gmslegion@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 7:12 AM To: avalon@smoe.org Subject: [AVALON] Jet Cover, Jack Kirby & DC Before my hackles get well and truly raised, does anyone know a site where this Jet album cover can be seen? >Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:56:19 +0200 >From: Daniel Atterbom >Subject: Re: [AVALON] Jet Cover, Jack Kirby & DC >In order to start a debate, and some of my British friends like Guy on the >this list have heard this before :-), IMHO Kirby is vastly overrated. Very >little of his work is of merit. But I am in a minority on this. > >Of the American comicbook artists working in the 40's to 60's, very few can >be considered geniuses... Wow. That's not just misinformed, that's massively offensive. One of the main criteria of genius is the ability to inspire other people. Now, I'm no musician (but if we have any musicians on this list, chip in), but I can call Ferry a genius, and his collaborators equally so. (Well, apart from Waddy Wachtel, anyway.) When I sit down and listen to most any Roxy song closely (as opposed to terrifying my fellow drivers on GA 400 with my off-key wailing), I am *amazed* by what a great lyricist Ferry is, and how well and how original the songs are written. "Mother of Pearl" makes me think "Wow, I wish I could could write something that powerful." I spent a couple of years in college trying to learn keyboards and guitar because of the inspiration I took from a few musicians. I failed mightily, but I tried to create music because a few geniuses (genii?) in the pop/rock field inspired me to give it my best. I cannot create music; it is beyond my mediocre talents. But I can draw comics. You know why Kirby's considered a genius? Because Jack Kirby inspired **every single person who's got a job in American comics right now** to get out a pencil and draw. Every last one of them. If they claim he didn't, then they're a punk like Frank Cho, looking to start debates and win publicity. Never mind the *millions* of kids who doodled and imagined what the universe is like based on Kirby's visuals. I am not capable of reading any of my collected Fantastic Four or Mr. Miracle compilations cover-to-cover. It only takes about forty pages before I have to put the book down, and go to my studio and draw. I don't have any time to read when I have things to create. Why do I think that? Because Kirby tells me so. As indeed he tells an entire blasted industry. Therefore he is a genius, and if you would claim Carl Barks is one based on his cultural impact, then you are blind to neither see Kirby's cultural impact nor give him the credit he is due. You don't like his panel composition or his hands or his visual effects? Fine; I always thought he drew Thor a little smaller than he should be myself. But saying "Very little of his work is of merit" is the least sensible statement this list has seen since Monquiboy went back up his tree, and a personally offensive one. *I* draw because of Jack Kirby. (And Schulz and Massimo Belardinelli.) How dare you call his work without merit? >Others, like Steve Ditko, Jim Steranko and most of the Golden Age artists >that I've read, are people that are readable, but not great. *eyes fall out of head* You just don't know when to quit, do you? - --G. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef] ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 07:09:45 -0500 (CDT) From: MarlanaK@webtv.net (M.M.K.) Subject: [AVALON] Re; Richard's review Richard, first let me thank you for an overall honest review of the concert. So many leave out ( many empty seats ), Not every single concert can always be a sell out. From sitting across the pond with anticipation of what will go on here. I know, not every song will be heard but it gets interesting as they go as what songs are dropped & what is added. " Song For Europe" may be dropped for the US. which I will regret. The reason I think this; I wanted to hear this live by Ferry last time I saw him but it was not to be heard.( shame to ) Another thing you pointed out -- people standing for the entire show. Now , I know if you bought a ticket thinking you had a seat & had to stand. There would be a lot of unhappy souls upset because they had to stand.--- On the other hand if one wants to dance , dance when the need is there. Not every number requires a dance. You can still move to the beat from a seated position. There are places here for concerts ( arenas ) where down on the floor, if you purchase a ticket for the floor it's a guarantee for dancing. At least you get the choice to be there are in seats back up a way. Too many times the floor is hot , & you have to look up to the stage. So really those on the floor when One stands to dance everyone does or the people back can't see. But all who purchase seating there know what their in for. I think if you want to dance which I like to do ,as long as you don't hinder someone's view, then by all means dance. ---I was at a Ottmar Libert , a great guitarist concert. Well someone did block my view by standing ( inappropriate ) & I tapped them on the shoulder & asked them would they please sit down this was not a Rock concert. They did with no remark whatsoever, this was like a stage show where something on stage was happening all the time . I paid big money to see it & sure as hell wanted to see it all. I believe there's a time & place for everything & one hopes that discretion is used. Everyone these days are paying big bucks to see a gig. Marlana........................................................ PS - Hoping no more songs will be dropped. I don't believe anyone has said how long the Roxy concert lasts. 11/2 hrs. 2hrs. Would someone give. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V6 #247 **************************** ======================================================================== For further info, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info avalon-digest