From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V5 #438 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Thursday, December 14 2000 Volume 05 : Number 438 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [AVALON] Re: Virus alert ["Ivor Canning" ] Re: Re: [AVALON] Stumped ! (was Super Geordie & New to the list) ["Ivor C] Re: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter 12 ["R. Jackson" ] RE: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter 12 ["Guy Lawley" ] To leave the list, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon-digest ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 20:15:10 -0000 From: "Ivor Canning" Subject: [AVALON] Re: Virus alert Dear All, This evening I inadvertantly opened an email attachment from a list member (non-Avalonian) only to discover it was a 'trojan horse' virus. I have run a virus check and appear to be clear but to be safe, please DO NOT OPEN ANY ATTACHMENTS ON EMAILS PURPORTING TO COME FROM ME until I sound the all-clear !!! Just delete them. Sorry, Ivor. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:09:55 -0000 From: "Ivor Canning" Subject: Re: Re: [AVALON] Stumped ! (was Super Geordie & New to the list) Jeremy steps up to the crease: > I just finished the book by Paul Stump, last week. It was kind of lame wasn't it? I really disliked Stump's 'Unknown Pleasures' just as much as his previous one (purportedly a history of progressive rock, but possibly more revealing as a book about Paul Stump's shallow opinions). Frankly, I've been better informed (and entertained) by the average breakfast cereal packet... Worse, in an astonishing and awful synchronicity, the blighter has today emailed the Gentle Giant list I subscribe to, saying he has chosen this quintessential prog band as his latest hapless victims and asking people for contributions !!! Flipping cheek, says I... I'm going to suggest he turns his attention to a history of pub rock instead - why should proggers and Roxy fans be the only ones to suffer ? Regards, Ive. n.p. Marillion 'Singles 82-88' ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:31:59 -0800 From: "R. Jackson" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter 12 At 08:55 AM 12/13/2000 -0500, you wrote: >The Dumb"ing" of America: The Democratic Party's Legacy. Do we have to bring political ideology into this? FWIW, I don't see the Republican Party proposing an increased education budget. Now that Jr. has won the election I expect to see more military contracts going to his dad's old Cold War buddies, less environmental restrictions on big business and cutbacks on social programs. Neither of us want to see discussion about how pathetic the Republican agenda is on a Ferry/Roxy mailing list, do we? - -Rob ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 20:16:11 +0100 From: "Han Snijders" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: [AVALON] this love - ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht ----- Van: Aan: Verzonden: woensdag 13 december 2000 19:39 Onderwerp: [AVALON] Re: [AVALON] this love > "This love" was written by Craig Armstrong and a female called Jerry Burns - she is a friend from here in Glasgow and had her own album released on Sony about eight years ago. She also sings this song and has contributed backing vocals to an earlier , longer and more haunting version / demo of the song by Bryan.........[ which I was lucky enough to hear]. Did you hear any other songs, do you have or are you able to get that version? Han ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:23:25 +0000 From: gardner@onmail.co.uk Subject: [AVALON] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BAVALON=5D_Re:_=5BAVALON=5D_this_love?= At the time I couldn't because it was not released yet but now I think it may be different - only problem is that she's moved to Barcelona and sort of out of touch at the moment - I may be in touch soon and see if it's allowed - I did hear a half recorded song called Frantic, as I said before and it sounded like some of those songs that have a slightly Arabic feel to them - fuzzy guitar noises - precusive noises that sound eastern in origin - a wee bit like bits of Mamouna - which I found slightly dull but it was only a rough demo. both these things were definately being recored for the"new album" and that was about 2 years ago! ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 23:14:54 -0600 From: jas2347@xsite.net Subject: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter and Verse You know I think this is the 3rd or 4th time over the years that I have been on this list, that something I posted generated so much controversy! I must have something that just get's people all hot and bothered. I guess I got the power. I try not to overstate my postings just hit it, quit it, and then stage left. I guess some of our fellow Avalonians feel that they have to write dissertations to get their point(s) across( or to prove just how dumb the rest ot us are). I think that less is more. I like what I like wheter it's popular, kitchy or camp. If it makes me smile or laugh or think differently, then I'm all for it. It's what attracted me to Roxy in the first place. I thought they were well beyond what was supposed to be popular (at least here anyway) and tasteful and like flies to shit ( love that) I followed. Well I'm glad I "stuck" around. So Tim, post what you like. Your "argument" did not faze,impress, nor persuade me to not like liking Oprah, Toni Morrison, Star Wars, Titantic (minus the song by Celine Dion) or Arnold Schwartzenegger for that matter. Taste/Style is what you make it. Snowed under in the windy city Jas Bulletin: "W" is in. America gets what it deserves. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 06:55:28 -0000 From: "Guy Lawley" Subject: RE: [AVALON] stinky old books This is also a good site for finding out-of-print titles: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/ It's a network of 2nd hand dealers all over the English-speaking world (oh, and the USA too). Guy - -----Original Message----- From: jeremy72@mindspring.com I know, I know. Sorry. I'm not as much of a jerk as I sounded like in that post. My sense of humor didn't read as well as I wanted it to. I'll keep an eye out for them if I'm ever around a used bookshop. That Roxyrama page is great!!! Jeremy avalon@smoe.org wrote: > Sometimes seconhand is all you get. Take what you can..... SimonG _ ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:05:36 -0000 From: "Guy Lawley" Subject: RE: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter 12 KB, I particularly like this one: "Ferry's Popular American Culture of Yore: Overly Romanced Escapism." I would think the man Himself would agree with that now. And I'd agree with R.Jackson that the "dumbing" of American Culture cannot be laid at the door of any political party. Both parties support the great capitalist edifice, which makes most money by exploiting the lowest common cultural denominator, right? As Hearst supposedly said, "No-one ever went broke under-estimating the taste of the American people." Have you heard this old gag? "The American political system is just like the British one. They have their Republican Party, which is just like our Conservative Party. And they have their Democratic party, which is just like our Conservative Party." It's now rather out of date, of course, because we Brits now have New Labour, which is just like our Conservative Party too (or so many would say). Yrs. Some dribbling old pretentious arrogant elitist guy - -----Original Message----- From: owner-avalon@smoe.org [mailto:owner-avalon@smoe.org]On Behalf Of KB Porter Sent: 13 December 2000 13:55 To: avalon@smoe.org Subject: Re: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter 12 The Dumb"ing" of America: The Democratic Party's Legacy. The Death of American Academe: A Myth. The Infantile Quality of American Mainstream Culture: Determinism, at best. The Individual's Responsibility: Self Determination, at best. Ferry's Popular American Culture of Yore: Overly Romanced Escapism. Days of Yore: Subjective History. Frame Of Reference: Subjective Context. Reality: Everything. Nothing. Something. One Thing...You Name IT! ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:25:50 -0000 From: "Guy Lawley" Subject: RE: [AVALON] Camp Kitsch - Final word to Colleen? So I'm kinda like, you know, yeah dude, what she said. Guy PS: I mean, like, whatever. PPS: Er, you know. (Translation: well put, Colleen.) - -----Original Message----- Colleen Matan On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Guy Lawley wrote: > to? Are we not, like, just totally "sad" (another fave from the > arsenal !)? Don't forget "bitter." From what I hear they go hand-in-glove. On Wed, 13 Dec 2000 KWil632057@aol.com wrote: > Um, yeah, but you are being fantastically elitist and arrogant. You > seem to be stating that you are above the peasents who might > enjoy their experiences seeing Star Wars or Titanic. Fair play to them > I say, we live in a world of FREE CHOICE. I am sorry you have to > compromise so that your freinds have the benefit of your company. I'm > sure they are very greatful. I think you are missing the points which undergird this discussion, and I don't think it's too far off topic for this list: a world view which admits no critical thought, no weighing of the merits of an individual work of culture (popular or high), and fears to make any kind of judgement is just as bad as one which criticizes everything and can't find anything to be redeemed in cultural artifacts (such as Laura suggested when she wrote in essence that all campy items were merely crap). Yes, some things we can (almost) all agree are crap and somethings are masterpieces. And in between is the interesting conversation. I can eat at The Inn at Little Washington and at McDonalds and enjoy them both. But at the same time I can also be aware that there is a difference between the two. In fact, it diminishes both experiences if I do not do so. It's not an all or nothing proposition. Was it Kierkegaard who suggested that the world might not be "and/or" but instead "both/and?" And isn't that a much more interesting way to live? Certain Roxy played the conventions of what was camp or kitsch or even cheese and what was elite. Ferry has spent most of his life creating a style which both embraces and pokes fun at class conventions, from the story recently reported here via Paul Thompson about his accent to the frayed collars on his expensive shirts. The dark and seedy and sophisticated allure of Ferry and of Roxy, the intelligence, the discernment, the courage to make decisions about what was worth celebrating and what was not is what keeps their music vibrant and alive 25 years later. It's not just Ferry--the other members of the band have gone on to do very interesting things and for the most part to keep that spirit alive in what they are doing. It's not just riding the Nostalgia Circuit for them (which is also why I fear a reunion just for the sake of a reunion--take the money and run). Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:13:00 -0000 From: "Guy Lawley" Subject: RE: [AVALON] Camp Kitsch - Chapter 1200 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-avalon@smoe.org [mailto:owner-avalon@smoe.org]On Behalf Of KWil632057@aol.com Sent: 13 December 2000 13:37 To: avalon@smoe.org Subject: Re: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter 12 enjoy their experiences seeing Star Wars or Titanic.> - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------ This feels like going over very old ground to me, but I'll give it a(nother) shot.... No, I don't think (nor did I say) that I'm above anyone. We are all individuals, my individual tastes differ. I think I'm being as objective as possible. If I "sit in judgement" on anyone, it's the cynical millionaire manipulators of popular taste. I'm a consumer like anyone else, I can enjoy "low" and "middlebrow" culture, with the very occasional foray into "high" when I'm in the mood. But I don't/can't switch off my critical faculties in the face of *any* of those three types of culture. It's just the way I am. (See conditioning, below!) "Elitist, arrogant..."; two more words from the knee-jerk arsenal that I don't think describe me very well. I'll have you know that I have a room full of comic books (US, UK and Euro) which I treasure greatly, and a substantial collection of Buffy The Vampire Slayer videos! Here's a quote from a Lou Reed song which I love: "I don't like opera And I don't like ballet And New Wave French movies They just drive me away. I guess that I'm dumb Cos I know I ain't smart, But deep down inside I got a rock'n'roll heart." And another from Howard Devoto: "I know the highest and the best. I accord them all due respect. But the brightest jewel inside of me Glows with pleasure at my own stupidity." (Actually I quite like *some* New Wave French movies.) - --------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------- Wake up and smell the coffee, mon ami! We live in a world of *costly* choice! When did you last pay zero bucks for a movie ticket or a Bryan Ferry CD? We also live in a world of *conditioned* choice. My conditioning is just different from that of most Star Wars fans. Have you read Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World"? Scary. We live in it. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- What a cheap shot!! (But I deserve it for being flippant on the topic.) It's more that *I* have the benefit of *their* company. I also have friends who share a more realistic (you might call it "cynical" - your choice!) view of the George Lucas syndrome. Many on both sides of the fence share my love of comics and SF. But many of them don't like Buffy!!! Some of them don't even like Roxy Music!!!!!! Oh, it's a complicated old world, that's for sure. Let's not try and simplify it too much, tempting and reassuring though it might be. XXX Guy PS: This is positively my last "dissertation" on the topic. Hurrah! PPS: "Pointless passing through Harvard or Yale. It's only window shopping, and strictly no sale!" (he quoted only semi-ironically). ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:31:40 +0000 From: "Martin Stockman" Subject: Re: [AVALON] This Love Chris relates - ---------- > I was told that Ferry's version of This Love dated from the Dave Stewart > sessions of circa 1996, and by implication therefore pre-dated Armstrong's > own version. I was also told that it added to the STL album as an inducement > to buy, but was considered the weakest of the unreleased material. Still my beating heart. If this sumptuous soundscape is held up as runt of the litter then God only knows what wonders are in store. Martineaux. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V5 #438 **************************** ======================================================================== For further info, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info avalon-digest