From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V5 #435 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Tuesday, December 12 2000 Volume 05 : Number 435 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [AVALON] Cheese vs. Camp ["Laura Shadbolt" ] Re: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter 12 ["Tim Kendrick" ] RE: [AVALON] Sunday Mirror 11th December ["Chris Turner" ] Re: [AVALON] Sunday Mirror 11th December ["Theresa Fagan" ] Re: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter 12 ["Tim Kendrick" ] Re: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter 12 [KWil632057@aol.com] RE: [AVALON] Camp Kitsch-Chapter 94 ["Guy Lawley" Subject: [AVALON] Cheese vs. Camp Hi, me again ;-) To continue this cheesy thread, speaking as another youngster, I think cheesy/camp stuff (camp as in '60s Batman rather than Noel Coward) is a load of rubbish. Kitsch is a word used so that some people have an excuse for their crap tastes. No offence to anyone here - if you like Ferry, you can't have entirely crap tastes. But the kind of adults (or, indeed, older children) who attempt to justify their collection of Steps albums by saying that they're "kitsch" really are the lowest of the low. Luckily, most of the people I've encountered in real life who fit this description have now grown out of it. Hi to new list members Linn and Antoine - I'm a young member too, at 16! Bye Laura ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:25:58 -0500 From: "Tim Kendrick" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter 12 >Though an interesting side question ( not to encourage this digression >on AVALON) would be - does a good book become bad simply because the >monstrous Oprah Winfrey includes it on her book list? The to my mind >unreadable Toni Morrison is seen throughout American academe as >well as by Oprah fans as the ultimate 'great' contemporary novelist. >Which says a lot I guess about the dead world of American academe... > >Tim > >Tim: >Are YOU a member of academia? I don't want to go off the subject of >this list but what qualifies you to critique Toni Morrison or Oprah for >that matter? Million of viewers and readers and the Pulitzer Prize >committee can't be all wrong you know. Both of those woman are admired >for what they have achieved and the positive messages that they send out >to everyone. It's something I think Bryan would agree on. I'll answer this point, but I don't want this to become an endless discussion about something far removed from the world of Roxy. I think Oprah's contribution to American culture has been DISASTROUS. She is a symbol of the infantilism of this country's mainstream culture. We have reached a point where a politician who holds an opinion of any substance gets accused of "negativity' - which leads in the end to the death of serious thought. Instead of thinking, we hug and hug and hug until we are 'healed'. it is pernicious stuff. As for Toni Morrison - if you like her, fine. But compared to really great writers of the past - James, Twain, Whitman, James badwin - her work is thin and mediocre. PC has led to her status as an official 'genius'. Of course the Nobel committee can be wrong - they usually are, which is why neither Graham Greene nor Shusaku Endo won the prize.If you believe Toni Morrison is in this class, good luck to you. And millions of viewers and readers are wrong all the time. The deification of people like George Lucas and work like TITANIC are evidence of that. It al comes back to the infantile quality of the mainstream culture here. The popular American culture to which Ferry refers is one of the past. There is a substantive difference between the culture that produced Armstrong and Sinatra and CASBLANCA and CITIZEN KANE, and the current corporate crap that has left us with Schwarzennegger and James Cameron and Broadway 'spectacles.' These things are death, and should be recognised as such. Tim PS- Like the way i brought it back on-topic? ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:22:31 -0000 From: "Chris Turner" Subject: RE: [AVALON] Sunday Mirror 11th December Interesting story in the press today about Customs arresting ten Dutch people in a horse trailer towed by a quad bike... Chris ;0) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-avalon@smoe.org [mailto:owner-avalon@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Reecey Sent: 10 December 2000 21:55 To: avalon@smoe.org Subject: [AVALON] Sunday Mirror 11th December Little titbit in the press today, about Bryan being 'burgled', as it were, with a quad bike, and a horse trailer going missing last week from an 'orchard outhouse' at his home in Sussex. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:14:33 -0500 (EST) From: Colleen Matan Subject: Re: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter 12 On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Tim Kendrick wrote: [thoughtful post snipped for space] > PS- Like the way i brought it back on-topic? Some of it relates to meta-issues on this list. Thanks for taking the time to write and send it. Colleen ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:15:48 -0500 From: "Theresa Fagan" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Sunday Mirror 11th December what is a quad bike?? - --TriTri - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Turner" | Interesting story in the press today about Customs arresting ten Dutch | people in a horse trailer towed by a quad bike... | | Chris ;0) ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:08:42 EST From: KWil632057@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter 12 In a message dated 11/12/00 18:24:52 GMT Standard Time, tim63@earthlink.net writes: << The popular American culture to which Ferry refers is one of the past. There is a substantive difference between the culture that produced Armstrong and Sinatra and CASBLANCA and CITIZEN KANE, and the current corporate crap that has left us with Schwarzennegger and James Cameron and Broadway 'spectacles.' These things are death, and should be recognised as such. >> Ive never seen such idiotic snobbish crap in all my life. Are we not allowed to be entertained? ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 00:28:17 +0100 From: "Sebastian Fasthuber" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter 12 > Ive never seen such idiotic snobbish crap in all my life. Are we not allowed > to be entertained? if entertainment means switching off one's brain for two hours - then the answer, to me, is no! saw 'fahrenheit 451' with oskar werner tonight, now that's entertainment... sebastian ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:38:18 -0800 (PST) From: Adrew Howard Subject: [AVALON] Super Geordie Hi. Another question. Paul Stump's book has a chapter titled something like "The Making of Super Geordie". He makes out that this is how Ferry is referred to in Newcastle. Is he really held in such high esteem, almost God-like, in that part of the country? I would have thought the opposite i.e that Bryan would have benn labelled a "big pooftah like" from the early Roxy days, and "a smarmy git like" for his upper class pretentions. Anyone??? Regards, Drew _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:40:12 -0500 From: "Tim Kendrick" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter 12 HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Tim >Ive never seen such idiotic snobbish crap in all my life. Are we not allowed >to be entertained? > > >___________________________________________________________________________ >The subliminable footer says: >To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: >unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:52:01 EST From: KWil632057@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Camp Kitch-Chapter 12 saw 'fahrenheit 451' with oskar werner tonight, now that's entertainment... Fair enough, we are all massively impressed, but to ignore contemporary cinema shows narrow thought. Yes, much of it is utter crap but it can often be very relevant. Mass popular entertainment often speaks volumes to those willing to be humble enough to bother to listen. ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:06:05 -0000 From: "Guy Lawley" Subject: RE: [AVALON] Camp Kitsch-Chapter 94 - -----Original Message----- KWil632057@aol.com Sent: 11 December 2000 23:52 .....to ignore contemporary cinema shows narrow thought. Yes, much of it is utter crap but it can often be very relevant. Mass popular entertainment often speaks volumes to those willing to be humble enough to bother to listen. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------- Absolutely agreed. Mass popular entertainment speaks volumes about the ways its purveyors have developed to separate the customer from his/her cash. MPE can indeed be worth experiencing and "very relevant." If we bother to listen (and watch) we may learn much about our society, in which repetitious, sentimental, pious, hypocritical, wish-fulfilment fantasy, often larded with violence, is the most popular form of entertainment. As one gets older, though, and works for a living, one soon realises that life is too short for most popular entertainment. So many bad films (etc.), so little time. At least we now have the magic of the VCR and the fast-forward button. To be "humble" enough to enjoy pop pap uncritically is to be, at best, a baby bird with one's face turned up to the great parent's beak, constantly demanding more regurgitated dead worms and insects. (Unlike a baby bird, you are however paying for the privilege!) At worst it is, as Tim K has said, to be brain dead. Popular music is, for the most part, no better than popular cinema, except in one regard; a pop song may last 3 minutes, a Titanic 3 hours. And it is in this field that Our Man Ferry has chosen to compete. Small wonder he no longer troubles the upper reaches of the charts. Quite notable that he can still dent them at all, and carry on making a reasonable living after 30 years at the pop coalface, and still produce worthwhile material. I think that nails my colours pretty firmly to the mast. Thanks for raising the issue, Tim. Regards to all, Guy ___________________________________________________________________________ The subliminable footer says: To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V5 #435 **************************** ======================================================================== For further info, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info avalon-digest