From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V5 #332 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Monday, September 11 2000 Volume 05 : Number 332 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [AVALON] Translated back from the German ["organism-001" ] Re: [AVALON] Biography? [Daniel Atterbom ] RE: [AVALON] Biography? ["Chris Turner" ] [AVALON] Different coloured Siren covers ["Measures (roaming access addre] Re: [AVALON] Does he. Or doesn't he. [KB Porter ] [AVALON] Well this is such a sad affair ["C.H.S=?ISO-8859-1?B?9g==?=teman] Re: [AVALON] Well this is such a sad affair [Julialiva@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] Does he. Or doesn't he. [Julialiva@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] Well this is such a sad affair [William Sommers ] Re: [AVALON] Politics ["Martin Stockman" ] To leave the list, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon-digest ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 10:47:39 +0100 From: "organism-001" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Translated back from the German Dear Christian Thanks very much for the reply. I can see now how you are obviously right about the Wiedersehen bit; could be goodbye or rendezvous, no way of knowing what he meant, but your interpretation does sound better than mine in the context. Thinking about the "game" part, in light of your reply, makes me think that the actual meaning of the lyric *could* be: "And the game never ends" or "The game will always go on" or somesuch. And for goodness sake don't apologise...! You got this thing going (in respose to the original question from... er... someone else) and I'm very glad of it!!! (I thought it was we English who apologise for everything!) Now we need someone to start work on the Latin verse ! (it's all Greek to me...) XXX The Organism PS Or we need Mr Ferry to reveal his original English versions! Are you out there, BF? PPS I can't believe this hasn't been done before... any encyclopaedic Avalonians seen transaltions done anywhere in the past? - ----- Original Message ----- From: C.H.Sötemann To: Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Translated back from the German > Well, Organism, > > to some extent you are right. "Das Spiel geht weiter" is, > correctly translated, "the game goes on". I was probably > bending the meaning too much as I was thinking of an old, > well-known game going on and on - no end in sight. But your > translation seems more appropriate here, I see. > As for the word "Wiedersehen", this case is a bit more difficult - > on the one hand it really means "goodbye", as in "Auf Wiedersehen!", > but a Wiedersehen can also be another meeting, putting it literally > it's "wieder sehen" = to see again. So I thought it refers to a > meeting (perhaps a romantic one, hence "rendez-vous") at some point > in the future, as the game goes on... > When I was translating the lyric, I was thinking of how it might have > been in the original, so I was probably putting too much emphasis on > TRYING to get a decent-sounding lyric together, sorry! > > Auf Wiedersehen, > Christian > ---------- > >Von: "organism-001" > >An: > >Betreff: [AVALON] Translated back from the German > >Datum: Sam, 9. Sep 2000 12:24 Uhr > > > > >Now I'm confused; I'd have to bow to your superior knowledge of the German > >tongue, I suppose, but: > > > >"Das Spiel geht weiter..." -- I always read this as "the game goes on" (or > >"the game goes further") ... is "the game lingers" really a more appropriate > >translation? > > > >"Noch viele schone wiedersehen" I thought meant "still many beautiful > >goodbyes (to come)" or something like that; doesn't wiedersehen mean > >"goodbye" or "see you later"? > > > >(This is all from memory so tell me if I've got the German words wrong in > >the first place...) > > > >Maybe I'm being too literal and you know the idiomatic (and therefore more > >accurate) translation, Christian. Any comments? > > > >Your pal, The Organism > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing > selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe avalon > ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 06:52:42 EDT From: Julialiva@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] St Petersburg Hi Alex, compared to others Ferry presents himself quite exclusive. I wonder if he has any influence on the charge-situation; it's oviously an exspensive journey just for one concert but if people cannot afford to see him - what for? Just to add Russia on his list? It all looks strange to me. Hope you can sort out something to see him play. ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 07:12:36 EDT From: Julialiva@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Diplomatic core in St Petersburg I can only agree on the point that concerts have become fairly exspenisive these days and I guess it's just the simply result of an over-demanding market (people want to be entertainted each and every day) and the fact, tha toyu can make so much money with it. However, concerning Ferry, I believe that some of the concerts he did this year were more to please himself (places he always wanted to play), not caring about political circumstances (a lot of bands f.e. did not play Austria when Haider became populaire, Ferry did not mind at all). I doubt that he's political and I don't expect him to become a political-concerned artist (something he could never be) but as a private person, I can not imagine that he does not care at all. Yes, he is extremely conservative up to a point I cannot believe that he ones formed a band like Roxy Music. Contradictionary can be ta perfect impulsive for creative work but it seems he now lives his imagine, or does the image live him, wish I knew, he propably does not know himself. He did sing "A hard rain's gonna fall" on this tour and I believe he would love to bring more "edges" into his msuic but I doubt, with the kind of lifestyle he's living now, tha tit would make sense. It's not him anymore, no anger left over, he obviously suffers and that might explains his melancholy state of mind that still brings out beautiful songs. As long as he "honestly" suffers I'll be pleased; it keeps him within the progress of expressing.....let's wait for the next album with own material, it might turns out better then we expect it. Well, I hope so! ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 07:15:43 EDT From: Julialiva@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Diplomatic core in St Petersburg If he said really that this his political thoughts are even worse than I could ever imagine it. Britain is doing so much better without "the iron lady" and her bizarre dreams (Falkland, supporting Pinochet and so much more). I am not surprised about his exclusive russian concert now. Is he really so naive? It would be better not to say anything political at all. ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 07:25:56 EDT From: Julialiva@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Translated back from the German I would favour your translation. Wiedersehen means good-bye. Das Spiel geht weiter is the game goes on. ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:41:44 GMT From: "Tracy Connell" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Biography? Hi Paul, I work in a book shop and we get advanced notification of forthcoming titles from Reps and through our Book Data CD Rom. I check regularly for Bryan Ferry or Roxy Music books, but haven't seen anything recently. Last book was Unknown Pleasures. The Bryan Ferry Story is out of print, along with all the other books written on Ferry and Roxy before Unknown Pleasures. You just can't get anything at the moment, except the music book for the Taxi Album. Tracy. >From: "Paul Bodine" >Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org >To: >Subject: [AVALON] Biography? >Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:12:58 -0500 > >Does anyone know if a serious biography of Bryan Ferry is planned or >underway (i.e., not the Bryan Ferry Story or Unknown Pleasures? Any idea >what Ferry's attitude toward being the subject of a real biography would >be? >One would assume it would be written by an Englishman. Have any of the >major >sources of biographical info passed away? Just curious . . . > >Paul Bodine > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ >Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing >selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! >To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: >unsubscribe avalon > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:56:32 +0200 From: Daniel Atterbom Subject: Re: [AVALON] Biography? One can always try http://www.bibliofind.com for older books. Which biography is the best? Daniel ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:09:02 +0100 From: "Chris Turner" Subject: RE: [AVALON] Biography? You can find a list of some of the Roxy/Ferry books available at www.roxyrama.com under books, click on the thumbnails to see a description of each title. There are also a few other books I am aware of but do not have - an Italian title by Paulo Toffolo, Roxy's Music - Johannes Delmere's original discography, and another Roxy title by Steve Taylor. For my money, Rogan's book is reasonable but quotes other existing sources too much, Stump's has too many factual errors, and too much cultural claptrap, Puxley's book is good, if a little (understandably) sycophantic, leaving the Rees/Lazell book as my favourite - good photos and insightful prose albeit it only covers early Roxy in depth. Cheers Chris - -----Original Message----- From: owner-avalon@smoe.org [mailto:owner-avalon@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Daniel Atterbom Sent: 10 September 2000 13:57 To: avalon@smoe.org Subject: Re: [AVALON] Biography? One can always try http://www.bibliofind.com for older books. Which biography is the best? Daniel ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:13:47 -0300 From: "Measures (roaming access address)" Subject: [AVALON] Different coloured Siren covers Hi there from a long time lurker just returned to these (UK) shores from working in South America. Im sure some of you officianados will know the origins of a version of the Siren album produced with yellow as the background colour as opposed to the normally seen blue. This is currently up for auction on Ebay and is generating quite a lot of interest, currently up to £60 and rising. Is it that rare. Answers on a postcard to this list please !! Chris Measures ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:00:48 -0400 From: KB Porter Subject: Re: [AVALON] Does he. Or doesn't he. <" Contradictionary can be ta perfect impulsive for creative work but it seems he now lives his imagine, or does the image live him, wish I knew, he propably does not know himself. He did sing "A hard rain's gonna fall" on this tour and I believe he would love to bring more "edges" into his msuic but I doubt, with the kind of lifestyle he's living now, tha tit would make sense. It's not him anymore, no anger left over, he obviously suffers and that might explains his melancholy state of mind that still brings out beautiful songs. As long as he "honestly" suffers I'll be pleased; it keeps him within the progress of expressing.....let's wait for the next album with own material, it might turns out better then we expect it. Well, I hope so!"> Dear Julia: I quite agree. Where does an artist go when they have seemingly assumed the lifestyle and culture they once parodied? The conundrum of success made from mocking success - the artistic irony once musically employed, now manifest as the person himself, Bryan Ferry - must be personally difficult to reconcile. Does art imitate reality, or does reality imitate art? Do you suppose Mr. Ferry struggles with the idea? "No secret life, there's no secret you can steal. Your lips are moving, I'll never know what they mean. Kiss and Tell. Money talks, of love that burns. Kiss and tell, money talks, you live and learn." (probably a mondegreen on my part) There is no doubt, in my mind, that it is (has been) BF's introspection which has produced many melancholic lyrics, and thus far seem to me to be genuine. As long as the artist is true to himself, the artwork's expression is real. Perhaps not to one's liking, but a true reflection of self. Bryan Ferry never fails to surprise me with his artistic remaking/remodeling of himself and his world. I await his next release in blind faith. Of course none of this speaks to commercial appeal. Do you imagine BF sometimes finds himself in a private hell - writing what is native to his mind, knowing it probably will not be a top ten vs. forcing numbed lyrics to easy music, hoping for a top ten? True art, or commercial art. Which is the stronger driver? Best wishes, KBP ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:04:22 +0200 From: "C.H.S=?ISO-8859-1?B?9g==?=temann" Subject: [AVALON] Well this is such a sad affair I think Ferry's statement about Thatcher (which I actually found worse than my anticipated tennis socks trade with John Major) has to be placed in context a bit. I remember having read that Thatcher's rise to the prime minister chair was quite heavily greeted by many at the time in Britain (probably also the young T. Blair, hahaha! Sorry, I'm so leftist). The Falklands war among many, many other things show what the iron lady was like, but I think although Ferry is conservative in some respects, he is far from being really rightist - I would agree with you that he is not a very political person. I always found it refreshing that he and Roxy did not sing naive peace songs and so on, but were much more decadent and ironic and melancholic. As for playing Austria in spite of Haider (did he think "This means nothing to me - aaaaaaaah Vienna"???) I think it was OK that Lou Reed etc. didn't play there, but I'm sure Ferry is completely against racism - as far as I know, he has had so many people from different countries in his touring bands and in the studio. And in 1993, in a German music magazine, there was printed at the bottom of the ad something like "Künstler gegen Rassismus". As well, I have read somewher he took part in the "Earth Pledge" concert in NYC in 1992. Does anyone know more about that (what intended message, which songs did BF perform)? Incidentally, I still would maintain the double meaning of "Wiedersehen" - - "ein Wiedersehen" is less the goodbye and more another meeting, don't you think? Cheers, Genosse Christian - ---------- >Von: Julialiva@aol.com >An: avalon@smoe.org >Betreff: Re: [AVALON] Diplomatic core in St Petersburg >Datum: Son, 10. Sep 2000 13:15 Uhr > >If he said really that this his political thoughts are even worse than I >could ever imagine it. Britain is doing so much better without "the iron >lady" and her bizarre dreams (Falkland, supporting Pinochet and so much >more). I am not surprised about his exclusive russian concert now. Is he >really so naive? It would be better not to say anything political at all. > > >___________________________________________________________________________ >Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing >selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! >To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: >unsubscribe avalon > > ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:54:12 EDT From: Julialiva@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Well this is such a sad affair To answer Christian, who said: Incidentally, I still would maintain the double meaning of "Wiedersehen" - - "ein Wiedersehen" is less the goodbye and more another meeting, don't you think? There is a double-meaning to "Wiedersehen", that's true but personally I find it neither close to simply "goodbye" nor "another meeting" in this only sense. How can I explain: after singing "noch viele schönste....he stops for a second and then sings wiedersehen; it gives the lyrics a different angle. There's something missing out, a memory of "noch viele schönste" and then he falls into the "Wiedersehen", like giving an answer to himself. That's what he loves to come again. Does this make any sense? I must admit that it's not easy to explain this in English. An then, it's just my personal translation of Ferry writing-style. It's all about an artistic view, believing in "das Spiel" , that goes on, that keeps him creative. Do I go too far to suggest that he was thinking (and in many ways heavily influenced) by Friedrich Nietzsche? "I'm for the man who drives the hammer, who knocks you by surprise" (manifesto-lyrics) - if so, I am not worried about Ferry; he will find a way out of this nostalgic-journey that has been something for his (and our) pleasure inbetween and it least it brought him back "on the road". ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 16:06:02 EDT From: Julialiva@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Does he. Or doesn't he. In einer eMail vom 10.09.00 19:02:38 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit schreibt kbporte@attglobal.net: << Does art imitate reality, or does reality imitate art? Do you suppose Mr. Ferry struggles with the idea? >> The real artist does distrust reality and then "what's real and make believe". It's his interpretation of the world and therefore as real as anything else, there's no difference to him. If art would just imitate reality is would be rather boring; I can not see how reality can imitate art. Concerning art I think Ferry has a pretty clear view of things that are important and necessary to him. Being a visual person he creates his world and becomes a part of it....concerning this aspect it's just natural for him to live the way he lives. (A bit like Andy Warhol who became (and understood himself) an art-object). This is really getting complicated now....I better stop! ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:11:47 -0700 From: William Sommers Subject: Re: [AVALON] Well this is such a sad affair At 09:04 PM 9/10/00 +0200, C.H.Sötemann wrote: > Incidentally, I still would maintain the double meaning of > "Wiedersehen" - "ein Wiedersehen" is less the goodbye and more > another meeting, don't you think? Oh, I agree completely. In fact, here's a slightly edited version of a previous post I made on the topic (perhaps I should point out that I understand German well enough to not need to do any sort of "internal translation" when I listen to the song... the poetic nuance of the German remains intact for me) : - --- Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 20:24:30 PST From: William Sommers Subject: Re: FAQ I think we all know that some things just don't translate well between languages, and we must keep in mind that the verse was orginally written in English and translated by native German speakers, probably with an emphasis on maintaining the feeling of the lyric rather than a literal. Going in reverse is not likely to reveal with much accuracy what Ferry wrote. With that pedantic caveat in place... ;-) Literal: No -- that is not The end of the world Stranded on life and art And the game goes further As one knows Still many beauties ... to see again Best guess figuratives -- i.e. what Sommers hears: No -- it is not The end of the world To have failed in both life and art The Game continues (The Game's not over) As you know (You can be sure) There's still much beauty ... to see again (There're many beautiful things ... you'll find again) - --- -wfs ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:55:15 +0200 From: "Han Snijders en Willy v/d Geest" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Translated back from the German Organism wrote: > And for goodness sake don't apologise...! I'm sorry, won't do that again ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:53:52 +0200 From: "Han Snijders en Willy v/d Geest" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Well this is such a sad affair > As well, I have read somewher he took part in the "Earth Pledge" concert > in NYC in 1992. Does anyone know more about that (what intended message, > which songs did BF perform)? > Incidentally, I still would maintain the double meaning of "Wiedersehen" > - "ein Wiedersehen" is less the goodbye and more another meeting, don't > you think? > > Cheers, > Genosse Christian In the eighties there was a televisionevening for Greenpeace to collect money, Ferry was one of the many artists to perform one or two songs. In an article in a Greenpeace magazine there was a picture of Ferry at the rainbowwarrior with the remark that he was the only performing artist that visited the ship. I remember the long strikes in the eighties against the closing of the mines. Ferry was asked several times to do a charity concert to support the strikes but he refused. I remember that his remarks about Tatcher were made in those days. Han ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:43:02 0000 From: "diane whateley" Subject: [AVALON] other Gigs Does anyone know of any dates that BF has, other than in Russia and Hannover, in the near future? Get your FREE Email and Voicemail at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:02:38 +0100 From: "Martin Stockman" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Politics - ---------- >From: Julialiva@aol.com > If he said really that this his political thoughts are even worse than I > could ever imagine it. Britain is doing so much better without "the iron > lady" and her bizarre dreams (Falkland, supporting Pinochet and so much > more). I am not surprised about his exclusive russian concert now. Is he > really so naive? It would be better not to say anything political at all. Well that's the point Julia. He hasn't really said anything political of any consequence in nearly thirty years of press scrutiny. In the late Seventies and early Eighties there was seemingly a witch-hunt in the UK music press to "out" any artist who wasn't manning the anti-Thatcher barricades. When pressed on the subject our quiffed cappucino-quaffing croon-meister muttered something about admiring Ken Livingstone - then Leader of Greater London Council, gesture politician of the left - as well as Quentin Hogg, celebrated establishment conservative. His way of expressing then , as now, that he doesn't really give a shit about politics. If there is a thread in his take on current affairs it is to be found in his love of the countryside, which is a hot issue in this (English) neck of the woods. It is perceived that the present Government has a "townie" agenda - eg. Blair continues to support a bill to ban fox-hunting which, although I agree, is probably a vote loser and is viewed by pressure groups such as the "Countryside Alliance" as symptomatic of a government out of touch with the rural population. I would assume that Bryan's political agenda, if he indeed has one at all, would stretch to supporting conservation of the present rural order. To pick and mix Ferry's quasi-political references to form an impression of his worldview is foolhardy. He inhabits an artistic netherworld best found within the sumptuous soundscape of Windswept. Regards all, Martino ___________________________________________________________________________ Come to Las Vegas and hear the indestructible tagline sing selections from "The Jazz Singer" ! To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V5 #332 **************************** ======================================================================== For further info, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info avalon-digest