From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V4 #250 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Sunday, August 22 1999 Volume 04 : Number 250 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [AVALON] Lyrics: Falling In Love Again ["Han Snijders en Willy v/d Geest"] Re: [AVALON] Appalachian AVALONians Bus Trip [ASchulberg@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff [ASchulberg@aol.com] [AVALON] Re: REMASTERS [Brian Lindsay ] Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff ["JKBarbanell" ] Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff [shinoballo@webtv.net (Jeff Pavlock)] Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff ["Decophile" ] Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff ["Decophile" ] Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff ["Decophile" ] Re: Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff [Alison Brown ] To leave the list, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon-digest ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 11:51:10 +0200 From: "Han Snijders en Willy v/d Geest" Subject: [AVALON] Lyrics: Falling In Love Again FALLING IN LOVE AGAIN Failing in love again Never wanted to What am I to do? Can't help it Love's always been my game Play it as I may I was born that way Can't help it Men (Girls) flock around me Like moths around a flame And if their wings burn I know I'm not to blame I'm falling Can't help it - -------------------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 09:21:02 EDT From: ASchulberg@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Appalachian AVALONians Bus Trip In a message dated 99-08-21 01:28:49 EDT, you write: << And, of course, shall we charter a bus to pick each of us up and transport > us > to the venue? > > Arnie > Sure, Arnie, all three of us....haha. >> Alright, a limo instead. Arnie - -------------------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 09:38:46 EDT From: ASchulberg@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff In a message dated 99-08-20 21:17:29 EDT, you write: << The days of fan club releases are long gone since the record companies have adopted the "Screw die-hard fans! If we can`t make mega millions off of it, then forget it!" attitude. >> Too bad we can't get Bryan back together with Fripp so that some back stuff (the "Horoscope" album???) could be released through the DGM Collectors Club, the King Crimson answer to fan club releases. Arnie - -------------------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 10:07:10 -0400 From: Brian Lindsay Subject: [AVALON] Re: REMASTERS > Boy, if there ever was a scam to rehash a CD, the Rykodisc releases were it. > I suppose the demos/outtakes on the Bowie Rykodisc could have supported a CD > all their own and would have probably sold very well. But, spread them out > and sell more!! > Anyway, I bought the Ziggy Stardust Rykodisc strictly for the acoustic > version of Ziggy Stardust and the piano only version of Lady Stardust. > Great! > But I certainly didn`t want another John, I`m Only Dancing, the most > horrible song Bowie did during that era, IMO. Well, one of three horrible > songs and the other two are also included in this release. (Velvet Goldmine > and Sweet Head....awful!) > > The outtakes on the Diamond Dogs Rykodisc also left a lot to be desired. > [...] I steered > clear of Rykodisc after those two. Well, some of the Bowie Rykodisc reissues did have some great additions: Station To Station had 2 extra live tracks that blew away the originals. Low, Heroes, and Lodger also had some great extra tracks (e.g. All Saints, Abulmajid, and I Pray Ole respectively). - -------------------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 08:39:04 -0700 From: "JKBarbanell" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff I own most of the Bowie & Elvis stuff and rather like the extra bits. I had recorded a few of the B sides on the ends of tapes, but lost track of which tapes over the years. I wouldn't mind finding where I recorded "Hula Kula" or "Pride and the Pain" either, but remastered CD versions of these songs would be even better. I'm not much for box sets in general, so I'd vote for tagging them on. Good marketing, too, as old and new fans would have equal motivation to buy beyond improved sound quality. Jeff - ----- Original Message ----- From: William Sommers To: Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff > At 02:49 PM 8/20/99 -0400, JObinv01@aol.com wrote: > > > I felt that a lot of the remnants from the Bowie sessions > > spoiled the overall quality of the albums and that a lot of the > > stuff would have been on the original albums if it was good > > enough. All these tracks collected together and put in a Box set > > would have been better rather than spread over the individual > > albums. > > Marketing 101: But that wouldn't promote sales of the remasters to the > levels of fan just shy of completist. Spread the tracks out, sell more > individual copies, make more money. > > (Not that I disagree with you in principal -- in fact, I don't expect I'll > ever purchase another Bowie item, certainly not a remaster of something I > already own and rarely listen to as is, but *would* buy an "alternates" box.) > > Disclaimer: I've not heard any of these Bowie releases, so have no opinion > on whether or not they were "spoiled"... I do have the first several Elvis > Costello ones, and thought them rather well done. (There's a long enough > pause after the end of the "normal" tracks to allow me to choose whether to > continue.) - -------------------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 18:37:05 +0200 From: oberon Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff Hi! My name is Oberon. I have been on the list for a while as a passive onlooker, and have enjoyed it very much! I am one of those persons who discovered both B.F. and David Bowie just a little too late to have bought the original LPs, so I have had no other option than buying the re-issues. I think they had some interesting material, especially the Scary Monsters re-issue featuring the track "Crystal Japan" and the stripped down version of "Space Oddity". Does anyone know where I can get a copy of that "1980 Floor Show" boot? Being quite familiar with the record industry, I think many of us are doomed as far as our musical tastes are concerned. I read an interview with Peter Criss, the original drummer of KISS, and he said that during the 50ies and 60ies and probably also in the 70ies, the people who ran the major labels were often veterans of the industry with a genuine interest in music. But as we headed into the last two decades of this century, they were replaced by younger lawyers and businessmen with their cell phones whose sole interest were the sound of money swamping their bank accounts. When an album does 500.000 copies it's considered a flop. I can't believe that!!! I also can't believe that groups like Boyzone are already releasing best of albums. Come on, their back catalogues contain, what, one or two albums??!!! Also, the Norwegian record industry blames the public for the low album sales it has been experiencing over the last few years. They say that "people have such an inferior and outdated taste in music. We try to sell good quality records, and all they want is Bonnie Tyler and Kate Bush. It really shows the level of the record buying public". Can you believe that statement??? But I'd prefer if they released these remasters on vinyl, perhaps with an additional 7" single feat. any bonus material. Of course it would be more expensive, but the songs that we all love would have deserved it. Some original LPs actually sounds inferior to new remastered CD editions, and that is probably also because of the original recording fascilities. Hope I didn't miss the point altogether! All the best, Oberon http://home.sol.no/~titlesta/oberon/ > > >Well, some of the Bowie Rykodisc reissues did have some great additions: > >Station To Station had 2 extra live tracks that blew away the originals. > >Low, Heroes, and Lodger also had some great extra tracks (e.g. All Saints, > >Abulmajid, and > >I Pray Ole respectively). > > -------------------- > To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe avalon - -------------------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:49:44 -0400 (EDT) From: shinoballo@webtv.net (Jeff Pavlock) Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff I gotta add my two cents....I liked the Bowie add ons. I find it interesting to find out what else could have been on classic releases. I'd love to hear what else was on Roxy's mind during recording of at least the first five albums. Hey, I wouldn't mind hearing in progress working songs (ala Beatles Anthology)of Both Ends Burning or In Every Dream Home A Heartache. I have the B sides and want the C sides. Hell I'd even grow potatoes by the score for them. The Quiet Sun CD seems to be but not quite "rehearsals" for Listen Now and 801 Live. If anyone doesn't have it, it's worth looking up. Face it kiddies we ain't gonna see a Roxy reunion,so I would just as soon see some new "old" material. Jeff - -------------------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:16:41 -0400 From: "Decophile" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff - -----Original Message----- From: JKBarbanell To: avalon@smoe.org Date: Saturday, August 21, 1999 11:55 AM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff >I wouldn't mind finding where I recorded "Hula Kula" or "Pride and the Pain" >either, but remastered CD versions of these songs would be even better. > Hula Kula, Pride and the Pain, Pyjamarama, and Your Application`s Filled appear on the "Absinthe Makes The Heart Grow Fondle" bootleg. The Numberer appears on the Kornyphone release of the Champagne and Novocain boot, but I think this track is really The Bob, or are they the same song with The Numberer being a demo name? I seem to recall that Grey Lagoons was dubbed Bogus Man pt. 2, or something like that. As a matter of fact, on the Champagne and Novocain boot, it`s called Bogus Man which I thought was a misprint until I read about the name change somewhere. Anyone with more info? Gene - -------------------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:50:22 -0400 From: "Decophile" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff - -----Original Message----- From: oberon To: avalon@smoe.org Date: Saturday, August 21, 1999 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff >Hi! > >My name is Oberon. I have been on the list for a while as a passive onlooker, and >have enjoyed it very much! Welcome to the Avalon list, Oberon. (Snip all too familiar observation) >Also, the Norwegian record industry blames the public for the low album sales it >has been experiencing over the last few years. They say that "people have such an >inferior and outdated taste in music. (Snip) Here in America, Kraft Foods used that same excuse to explain the slump in their cheeze-in-a-can sales. > >But I'd prefer if they released these remasters on vinyl, perhaps with an >additional 7" single feat. As a matter of fact. At the beginning of the year, I recall ads appearing in "Goldmine" magazine (a collectable LP/CD publication) about a limited edition release of For Your Pleasure remastered and pressed on 180 gram virgin vinyl. I`ll try to dig it up. (snip) >Some original LPs actually sounds inferior to new remastered CD >editions, and that is probably also because of the original recording facilities. Not so much the fault of the recording facilities, but in the quality of vinyl used in the pressings. (Virgin vinyl vs. a recycled mix. Hold an LP up to a 100w light bulb. The easier it is to make out the shape of the bulb, the better the vinyl quality) I have many albums that sound exceptionally clear. However, these are import albums from Europe who used 180 gram virgin vinyl until the end. U.S. pressing were being mixed by the mid '70`s and got gradually worse. Into the early '80`s, they didn`t even bother to strip the old labels off the vinyl before melting them down. You can look real close at some records from the mid '80`s on and actually see pieces of paper in the vinyl and when held up to a 100w bulb, you can`t even see light, let alone the bulb. After the public had enough of these crappy pressings, the record industry used this as a spring board to launch CDs claiming it to be far superior, indestructible and cheaper to make. However, music on these cheap pieces of plastic shot up to 3 times the price of an album and began to experience CD rot, warping in the sun, distortion from finger prints, scratches etc. ......in other words, the record industry put the fork to us and has been twisting it ever since. Gene - -------------------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 21:08:44 -0400 From: "Decophile" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff - -----Original Message----- From: oberon To: avalon@smoe.org Date: Saturday, August 21, 1999 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff >Does anyone know where I can get a copy of that "1980 Floor Show" boot? If you`re equipped with Real Player G2 (www.realaudio.com for a free download) and at least a 56k modem, then go to: http://www.creaven.freeserve.co.uk/ and scroll down to "Absolutely Rare". This version is the one lifted from the original NBC master. As far as recording, you can either connect the "speaker" jack in your sound card to your home stereo and record it, or you can get a "Y" adapter for your "speaker jack" and connect to the "Line In" jack on your sound card. Then record it with whatever recorder you have installed on your computer. Good luck. Gene - -------------------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 21:14:42 -0800 From: Alison Brown Subject: Re: Re: [AVALON] Re: The Wrong Stuff You may have discovered Ferry and Bowie "just a little too late," but I missed the originals by such a long shot that I haven't even been able to find the Rykodisc versions at any record stores! I suppose I don't know what I'm missing in terms of sound and quality, since I've never heard my music on anything other than CDs and the occasional tape. Which may change, since my mother just gave me her record collection from the 60s and 70s. Mostly jazz and classic rock, but I did unearth a few gems - David Bowie narrating "Peter and the Wolf," for one. I had no idea it existed! I'm so completely incompetent that I had to have her tell me how to get the records out of the packaging. Next we're going to have a lesson on how to play them. :P Alison At 8/20/99 6:37:00 PM, you wrote: >Hi! > >My name is Oberon. I have been on the list for a while as a passive onlooker, and >have enjoyed it very much! > >I am one of those persons who discovered both B.F. and David Bowie just a little >too late to >have bought the original LPs, so I have had no other option than buying the >re-issues. I think >they had some interesting material, especially the Scary Monsters re-issue >featuring the track >"Crystal Japan" and the stripped down version of "Space Oddity". - -------------------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 00:19:18 -0700 From: erik simpson Subject: [AVALON] Remaster/Reissue Hi; Some random neural firings, regarding remasters/reissues. It's growing longer by the minute and only barely on-topic, so be forewarned; I understand the argument here from both sides, but my personal preference is in favor of bonus tracks. (I am frequently a willing sucker for this kind of brazenly cynical marketing where an artist (or label) reissues an artists back catalog with enhanced audio quality and extra tracks. Sometimes I think the occasional rarities disc(s) would be a better deal (much like the recent "Grow Fins" Capt. Beefheart 5 disc rarities box), but they wouldn't get to move nearly as much product, as these kinds of projects do tend to preach primarily to the converted.) I have mixed feelings about Bowie in general (the success of so many of his projects seems to relate directly to who his collaborator(s) of the moment is/are), so I only have some of his stuff, but the bonus tracks on the Ryko reissues that I did purchase (primarily the Eno stuff and "Scary Monsters") I enjoyed mostly, and if I didn't feel like intruding on the mood of the original release, I just programmed them out. But then, I rarely listen to a CD all the way through at once, except as a new release. With my media-assisted short attention span, I am indeed the guy they invented the "shuffle" button on the CD player for. I did however purchase ALL the Elvis Costello (who I rate very highly indeed) reisssues on Ryko. And for my money, this is a perfect example of the job being done right. The original CD reissues on Columbia were among the worst sounding I have ever heard. I would have been real surprised to find that Columbia even went to the trouble of making their EC CDs from the original master tapes, and not just the most convenient source that was available at the moment. The reissues were a world of sonic difference; crisp, clear and vibrant. Unlike Roxy, Costello has an incredible wealth of B-sides, EPs, live tracks and the likes, and I thought they did an excellent job of filling out each CD with extra tracks that were from the same basic period of time and thus made fairly good sense thematically. And, as William said, they placed a little spacer of dead time between the album proper and the extra cuts so as to maintain the basic integrity of the original recording. Fortunately, I hadn't spent much at all on Costello CDs when the Ryko reissues came out (mainly due to the fact that I had been very unimpressed with the sound quality of what I had heard). Would I have bought them all, if I had already invested a healthy sum in Costello CDs? Probably. But this is both a testament to the excellent job done with the reissues and the high regard in which I hold Costello's body of work. Another approach is when an artist puts out a "career-defining" box set, such as the Velvet Underground's "Pull Slowly and See" and Pere Ubu's "Datapanik In The Year Zero" box sets of recent years where they collected all their official releases (complete w/improved sound) and enough unreleased archival material to entice completists like me who already had most official releases on CD. These are usually a better deal than buying the entire catalog disc by disc, but you have to usually sacrifice the original packaging, and often the overall flow. (The Ubu set compiled 5 studio albums onto 3 CD's, so continuity went down the toilet, unless you wanted to go to the trouble of programming the original song sequences in.) I like quite a bit what Sony has been doing with the Miles Davis catalog, where they have been releasing several multi disc sets highlighting various periods of Miles' career, each with much improved sound, scads of unreleased material, and a massive book with all kinds of session notes, liner notes and photos. They have been pretty pricey actually, but Sony has been releasing them one at a time and spacing them out, so as not to glut the market. Really quality product, reissued by people who obviously care about the job they are doing, and take Miles' legacy very seriously. I almost bought some of the remastered King Crimson reissues a few years back but instead took a "wait and see" attitude. This now strikes me as having been a good idea, as Fripp/DGM is apparently going to remaster and reissue his catalog every few years, as technology advances to a point to make it seem worth the trouble to him. But I don't attribute DGM's doing this to greed (as I would if it was a major label), as much as I think Fripp just wants to have the best quality recordings available to his fans, as much as possible. (For whatever it's worth, I think DGM is the ultimate rarity in the music business; a record company that wants to give both artists and listeners a fair shake; an honorable attempt to prove that integrity and commerce needn't be mutually exclusive.) Basically, how well these marketing ploys work on me depends pretty much entirely on the esteem in which I hold the artist. However, the addition of unreleased or rare material has more often than not been the deciding factor for me in most of the previous mentioned examples. So, in my case, bonus tracks=big sales. Will I buy the Roxy reissues, even though I have all the individual albums on CD already? Most likely. I was impressed enough with the sonic improvements made on "The Thrill Of It All" to make it seem worth while, but probably not all at once and not right away. So, yes, the completist and obsessive collector in me is apparently in the drivers seat, but only just barely, and only just occasionally. Enough rambling. I'm going to send this now, because every time I revise it, trying to shorten it, it gets longer. Be well. Bye; Erik S NP; "The Soft Bulletin"-the Flaming Lips - -------------------- To unsub, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V4 #250 **************************** ======================================================================== For further info, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info avalon-digest