From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V3 #224 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Tuesday, September 8 1998 Volume 03 : Number 224 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [AVALON] Zarathustra ["Decophile" ] Re: [AVALON] Zarathustra ["Decophile" ] [AVALON] Re: avalon-digest V3 #223 ["Vicente Dobroruka" ] Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz ["Michael Hillman" ] Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz ["Neil Ashar" ] Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz [Colleen Matan ] Re: [AVALON] Bryan's Jewish Soul ["Neil Ashar" ] Re: [AVALON] Bryan Ferryovitz ["Michael Hillman" ] To leave the list, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe avalon-digest ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 07:00:57 -0400 From: "Decophile" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Zarathustra - -----Original Message----- From: Rex Estorffe To: avalon@smoe.org Date: Sunday, September 06, 1998 11:05 PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Zarathustra >Decophile wrote: >> >> Here`s something that`s bugged me for some time. >> Why does Ferry consider Zarathustra "another time loser" when in reality, >> his works are considered the ground work for Plato, Aristotle, and other >> Greek thinkers along with influences noted in the Manual of Discipline found >> among the Dead Sea Scrolls. >> Just wondering. >> >> Gene > It rhymes,go get another hot from grill Gene Well, that`s the conclusion I`ve come to also, unless I`m missing something. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 07:42:01 -0400 From: "Decophile" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Zarathustra - -----Original Message----- From: HipChip To: avalon@smoe.org Date: Sunday, September 06, 1998 11:02 PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Zarathustra >Read "Thus Spake Zarathrustra"! > If it`s longer than "Froggy Goes A-Courting", then I`m afraid I don`t have the time. Actually, I watched one of those "Ancient Mysteries" type shows typical of A&E/Discovery/Learning Channel in which he was brought up. I was hoping for some insight that would collaborate Ferry`s contention of his being a loser, but found none. I guess Ferry was hard pressed to come up with a rhyme for "loser". Gene ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 08:58:05 -0700 From: "Vicente Dobroruka" Subject: [AVALON] Re: avalon-digest V3 #223 Dear Gene, Concerning your last message - "Here`s something that`s bugged me for some time. Why does Ferry consider Zarathustra "another time loser" when in reality, his works are considered the ground work for Plato, Aristotle, and other Greek thinkers along with influences noted in the Manual of Discipline found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Just wondering. Gene" In fact I work as a researcher on Jewish apocalyptic (and sometimes also NT apocrypha as well). The influence of Zoroastrianism in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in Daniel and other apocalyptic writers is indeed a hard thing to prove - since the oldest Zoroastrian manuscripts we have date only from the 5th or 6th centuries A.D., it is logically impossible for them to have influenced (a dangerous word in the history of ideas) texts from the 2nd/1st century B.C.. Of course, everyone knows that Zoroastrianism is much older than that, Zoroaster (i.e. Zarathustra) might have lived before 1.000 B.C. etc.. But, empirically, there is no documental proof of the influence of his teaching on late Judaism. Besides, there are always the same fundamentalists who claim that an "inspired" text (!) must show no traces of foreign thought, and hide themselves in the arguments above exposed. Maybe our hero Bryan claims that Zarathustra was "another-time loser" because his religion, in the end, was wiped out by Islam, and today there are more people subscribing to the Avalon-list than zoroastrians in the world (even though there used to be some modern stuff about them on the Web). For a fine introduction, see Mary Boyce. Zoroastrians - their beliefs and practices. London/New York. Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979. Finally - this is just my opinion, of course - I think Plato's or Aristotles's role in the western intellectual development is far greater than Zoroaster's. Just my opinion, of course. Best wishes for all Vicente ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 08:22:00 +0500 (GMT) From: Roberto Galvez Subject: Re: [AVALON] Zarathustra >If it`s longer than "Froggy Goes A-Courting", then I`m afraid I don`t have >the time. >Actually, I watched one of those "Ancient Mysteries" type shows typical of >A&E/Discovery/Learning Channel in which he was brought up. I was hoping for >some insight that would collaborate Ferry`s contention of his being a loser, >but found none. >I guess Ferry was hard pressed to come up with a rhyme for "loser". >Gene Ferry hasn't referred to sweet Zarathie as a 'loser' but a 'time loser'. At the beginning of 'Also Sprach' we know that he had spent years in a mountain, just thinking. Oh Mother of Pearl, Roberto. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 16:39:34 +0200 From: "Michael Hillman" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz This recent discussion of Zaratustra etc. reminds me of this line in Do The Strand which has particularly interested me for a while The word Shmaltz is a Yiddish word meaning chicken lard - I wonder why BF would chose to use it in a song and what might have inspired him - as far as I know Shmaltz has not "slipped" into the English language like some other Yiddish words such as "shlep" (to tarry doing something) or even occasionally "shmuck" (losely meaning idiot) Anyone? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 11:40:11 -0500 From: HipChip Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz Schmaltz; highly sentimaental music or literature according to Webster. Root is rendered chicken fat from Yiddish. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:46:17 -0700 From: "Neil Ashar" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz >The word Shmaltz is a Yiddish word meaning chicken lard - I wonder why BF >would chose to use it in a song and what might have inspired him - as far >as I know Shmaltz has not "slipped" into the English language like some >other Yiddish words such as "shlep" (to tarry doing something) or even >occasionally "shmuck" (losely meaning idiot) Oh yes it has... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:52:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Matan Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Michael Hillman wrote: > The word Shmaltz is a Yiddish word meaning chicken lard - I wonder why BF > would chose to use it in a song and what might have inspired him - as far > as I know Shmaltz has not "slipped" into the English language like some > other Yiddish words such as "shlep" (to tarry doing something) or even > occasionally "shmuck" (losely meaning idiot) > > Anyone? Well, I can't speak for how prevalent the use of "s[c]hmaltz" is in British English--I'll leave that to the native speakers and/or the Anglophiles amongst us--but it's certainly part of American English. [discussion of vaudeville, Tin Pan Alley, etc., snipped] As for "s[c]hmuck", well a more strict definition of it yields "idiot" as well, no? Colleen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:37:07 +0200 From: "Michael Hillman" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz and my Lexicon of Hebrew Slang says: " over flamboyant/sweetish/flowery...example sentence "you want me to play this SHMALTZ music at a party?! this is supermarket music!" (Origin: German/Yiddish) " I think that interpretation of the word is more adjectival, where one would add a Y i.e. "Shmaltzy" or "kitsch" so there we go - ---------- > From: HipChip > To: avalon@smoe.org > Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz > Date: 07 September 1998 18.40 > > Schmaltz; highly sentimaental music or literature according to Webster. > Root is rendered chicken fat from Yiddish. > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 11:11:55 -0700 From: "Neil Ashar" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz I have a weird problem with posting on this list. It seems whenever I mail directly to "avalon @smoe.org", my mail doesn't reach the list, although it doesn't get returned to me either. I can only post by replying, it seems, so I'll ask my question now: Does anyone know the release date for the new Ferry, British date? thanks Neil PS: Isn't schmuck (and putz) Yiddish slang for schlang, er, penis? - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Hillman To: avalon@smoe.org Date: Monday, September 07, 1998 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz >and my Lexicon of Hebrew Slang says: > >" over flamboyant/sweetish/flowery...example sentence "you want me to play >this SHMALTZ music at a party?! this is supermarket music!" (Origin: >German/Yiddish) " > >I think that interpretation of the word is more adjectival, where one would >add a Y i.e. "Shmaltzy" or "kitsch" > >so there we go > >---------- >> From: HipChip >> To: avalon@smoe.org >> Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz >> Date: 07 September 1998 18.40 >> >> Schmaltz; highly sentimaental music or literature according to Webster. >> Root is rendered chicken fat from Yiddish. >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:11:57 +0200 From: "Michael Hillman" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz > As for "s[c]hmuck", well a more strict definition of it yields "idiot" as > well, no? > > Colleen > > > Well the literal translation is a little less appropriate for airing to however many subscribers there are to this chatgroup!!!... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:20:24 +0200 From: "Michael Hillman" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz Neil maybe your computer is being a shmuck or a potz but THIS message got thru OK! potz (putz) is defined in my Hebrew Slang Lexicon as "General derogatory word: stupid, unsuccessful, thick etc." and your translation of shmuck is correct - I guess I'm just too prudish... zei gezunt (be well in Yiddish), Michael - ---------- > From: Neil Ashar > To: avalon@smoe.org > Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz > Date: 07 September 1998 20.11 > > I have a weird problem with posting on this list. It seems whenever I mail > directly to "avalon @smoe.org", my mail doesn't reach the list, although it > doesn't get returned to me either. I can only post by replying, it seems, so > I'll ask my question now: > Does anyone know the release date for the new Ferry, British date? > thanks > Neil > PS: Isn't schmuck (and putz) Yiddish slang for schlang, er, penis? > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Hillman > To: avalon@smoe.org > Date: Monday, September 07, 1998 11:00 AM > Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz > > > >and my Lexicon of Hebrew Slang says: > > > >" over flamboyant/sweetish/flowery...example sentence "you want me to play > >this SHMALTZ music at a party?! this is supermarket music!" (Origin: > >German/Yiddish) " > > > >I think that interpretation of the word is more adjectival, where one would > >add a Y i.e. "Shmaltzy" or "kitsch" > > > >so there we go > > > >---------- > >> From: HipChip > >> To: avalon@smoe.org > >> Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz > >> Date: 07 September 1998 18.40 > >> > >> Schmaltz; highly sentimaental music or literature according to Webster. > >> Root is rendered chicken fat from Yiddish. > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 23:34:06 -0700 From: dawndalion Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz Colleen, I happen to have a German Dictionary here with me, and the word, Schmuck, in German, means, "Jewel, ornament, decoration." Also means, "neat, smart." Never could quite get the contrast in usage and meaning with the Yiddish.... perhaps someone can enlighten me? Dawne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:51:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Matan Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, dawndalion wrote: > Colleen, > I happen to have a German Dictionary here with me, and the word, > Schmuck, in German, means, "Jewel, ornament, decoration." Also means, > "neat, smart." > > Never could quite get the contrast in usage and meaning with the > Yiddish.... perhaps someone can enlighten me? Uh, sorry folks. I was being ironic when I suggested its loose and more precise translations meant the same thing. I just can't bring myself to use those smiley faces. Not being a linguist, my first thought as to the different meanings in Yiddish and German is that languages evolve differently and shared words come to have different meanings over time. My second thought is, loosely, "one man's meat is another man's poison". Colleen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:00:59 +0200 From: "Michael Hillman" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz Dawne interesting one that from the German dictionary in Yiddish it is pronounced "shmok" or "shmuk", maybe the word in the German dictionary is pronounced "shmuch" as in "Loch (Ness)" or "shmooch" being a different word entirely??? The thing about sometimes contrasting meaning and usage in Yiddish is probably due to the fact that Yiddish evolved from several languages - Hebrew, Polish, German, English, Hungarian in the main - and was originally spoken in several different countries in Eastern Europe in several different dialects and is a heavily slanged language (I cannot conduct a conversation in Yiddish but I know a hell of a lot of Yiddish slang) as well as being extremely expressive (i.e. a lot of these words such as shmuck and pots, meshuganeh - can be used in conversation to convey a feeling that is understood without actually knowing the true meaning e.g. that guy is a shmuck, I feel so shlecht, those delivery guys are such shleppers, keep shtum about what I am telling you, "tahkeh" as an expression of surprise etc) the American comedian Jackie Mason uses quite a lot of Yiddish in his shows - - usually before crowds that are quite often not Jewish or Yiddish speakers - - and the audience is in hysterics I think it is very much the way Yiddish slang sounds effective that makes the use of some words that are not true translations feasible excuse me for being such a shmerel causing this diversion from our usual discussion amazing in fact we end up discussing Yiddish on a BF/RM chatgroup!!! Michael - ---------- > From: dawndalion > To: avalon@smoe.org > Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz > Date: 07 September 1998 08.34 > > Colleen, > I happen to have a German Dictionary here with me, and the word, > Schmuck, in German, means, "Jewel, ornament, decoration." Also means, > "neat, smart." > > Never could quite get the contrast in usage and meaning with the > Yiddish.... perhaps someone can enlighten me? > > Dawne > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:11:30 +0200 From: "Michael Hillman" Subject: [AVALON] Re: So what got you interested in Ferry? Neil hi Well I got interested in BF almost coincidentally. In fact I'm 26 yrs old so the whole RM thing was all over by the time I was a mid-teenager. When they released "Streetlife" the Greatest Hits collection I had heard of Roxy being a very influential band. I had picked up a copy of Boys and Girls at a highschool second-hand fayre but not really listened to it too much. And I was interested in Duran Duran and Simon LeBon had said his most missed act of 1982 was RM - they won a UK music magazine top spot for Most Missed Act in 1982/3. I was at a market one day in London and picked up a copy of Streetlife for about $3. And one thing led to another and I started collecting all of their/his stuff and became an obssesive fan over the years. So that's my story. Sounds a bit like a psychotherapy session taking you back to your childhood in depth but there you go! Neil I'm posting this reply back to the chatgroup even though we started this conversation privately coz I think it might be an interesting topic for discussion - how people got interested in BF/RM. All the best Michael - ---------- From: Neil Ashar To: michaelh@actcom.co.il Subject: Ferry Date: 07 September 1998 20.59 So what got you interested in Mr. Ferry? Shamefully, for me it was an Esquire spread on various, currently low-profile Brits: Hardy Amies, Terence Stamp, Peter O'Toole... and Bryan Ferry, fresh from Taxi. NA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:29:42 EDT From: ASchulberg@aol.com Subject: [AVALON] Bryan's Jewish Soul In a message dated 98-09-07 13:57:38 EDT, you write: << The word Shmaltz is a Yiddish word meaning chicken lard - I wonder why BF > would chose to use it in a song and what might have inspired him - as far > as I know Shmaltz has not "slipped" into the English language like some > other Yiddish words such as "shlep" (to tarry doing something) or even > occasionally "shmuck" (losely meaning idiot) > > Anyone? Well, I can't speak for how prevalent the use of "s[c]hmaltz" is in British English--I'll leave that to the native speakers and/or the Anglophiles amongst us--but it's certainly part of American English. [discussion of vaudeville, Tin Pan Alley, etc., snipped] As for "s[c]hmuck", well a more strict definition of it yields "idiot" as well, no? >> Hey, while we're on the subject, how about that "Oy veh, high life ecstasy, you might as well live," from The Thrill of It All? What is this Jewish lingo doing in our High Brit friend's works. Arnie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:12:29 -0500 From: "Victor Hastings" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: So what got you interested in Ferry? - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Hillman To: [AVALON] ; Neil Ashar Date: Monday, September 07, 1998 2:19 PM Subject: [AVALON] Re: So what got you interested in Ferry? (snip) >Neil I'm posting this reply back to the chatgroup even though we started >this conversation privately coz I think it might be an interesting topic >for discussion - how people got interested in BF/RM. > >All the best > >Michael i'll add my $0.02 ... tho i don't claim this is a terribly earthshattering tale! i _never_ bought music as a young teen, and my musical knowledge was limited to AM top 40 radio of the 70s ('american pie,' 'brandy,' that sort of stuff). when i was 16, i began car pooling to school with a girl who lived down the street. she listened to a funky 'album oriented rock' station that played stuff i had absolutely never heard of, including 'love is the drug' which was the first roxy song i ever heard. she hated the song and would change stations whenever it was played. i made a mental note, though. two years later i went off to college, roomed with a music fan who encouraged me to follow my own tastes, and came home that christmas to buy the first three albums of my collection -- 'siren,' the now deleted greatest hits package, and elvis costello's 'my aim is true.' all of which have stood me in good stead over the last 20 years. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:17:37 -0500 From: "Victor Hastings" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bryan's Jewish Soul - -----Original Message----- From: ASchulberg@aol.com To: avalon@smoe.org Date: Monday, September 07, 1998 8:32 PM Subject: [AVALON] Bryan's Jewish Soul (snip) > Well, I can't speak for how prevalent the use of "s[c]hmaltz" is in > British English--I'll leave that to the native speakers and/or the > Anglophiles amongst us--but it's certainly part of American English. > [discussion of vaudeville, Tin Pan Alley, etc., snipped] i have always assumed that the line 'mashed potato schmaltz' referred to the early sixties dance tune of the same name. i can't recall the performer; carole king may have been involved either as artist or writer or both, but i am not sure. 'mashed potato' was really schmaltzy. it would fit. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:31:32 EDT From: LizzieJim@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: So what got you interested in Ferry? I first saw Roxy when they appeared on the Friday concert show years and years ago and I was like these guyz are really bizarre. It was not long after that my older brother bought one of the albums, I think it might have been Stranded and I was hooked, especially when I saw what Bran looked like. I figured he looked like that and came out with these absolutely great songs that are still so listenable today. Well I've been hooked for what is it about 20 years now? and he's still my favorite all-time singer and worth the wait to see what he's going to do next. I remember even kind of liking Tony Bennett's music a while back and hearing that Bryan was not that crazy about him and liked Sinatra better and I never bought another Tony album. It's scary how he could even influence me like that. I just think he's great there's no other singer that's like him or looks like him and few have tried and failed miserably but he's still so cool today not MOR like Elton John or Billy Joel etc. I just adore him! Janeen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 05:50:00 +0200 From: ccd@dataweb.nl Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz "Michael Hillman" wrote: >...(I cannot conduct a >conversation in Yiddish but I know a hell of a lot of Yiddish slang) as >well as being extremely expressive... > >excuse me for being such a shmerel causing this diversion from our usual >discussion > >amazing in fact we end up discussing Yiddish on a BF/RM chatgroup!!! > >Michael NP Michael! please explain "Oy Weh"(Oy Veh?)-The Thrill Of It All ...singing... The time has come It's getting late It's now or never... so Bryan, new album please! Frank ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:08:52 -0700 From: "Neil Ashar" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bryan's Jewish Soul - -----Original Message----- From: ASchulberg@aol.com To: avalon@smoe.org Date: Monday, September 07, 1998 6:32 PM Subject: [AVALON] Bryan's Jewish Soul >In a message dated 98-09-07 13:57:38 EDT, you write: > ><< The word Shmaltz is a Yiddish word meaning chicken lard - I wonder why BF > > would chose to use it in a song and what might have inspired him - as far > > as I know Shmaltz has not "slipped" into the English language like some > > other Yiddish words such as "shlep" (to tarry doing something) or even > > occasionally "shmuck" (losely meaning idiot) > > > > Anyone? > > Well, I can't speak for how prevalent the use of "s[c]hmaltz" is in > British English--I'll leave that to the native speakers and/or the > Anglophiles amongst us--but it's certainly part of American English. > [discussion of vaudeville, Tin Pan Alley, etc., snipped] > > As for "s[c]hmuck", well a more strict definition of it yields "idiot" as > well, no? >> > >Hey, while we're on the subject, how about that "Oy veh, high life ecstasy, >you might as well live," from The Thrill of It All? What is this Jewish lingo >doing in our High Brit friend's works. > >Arnie It's called camp. I understand it was somewhat en vogue around the same period Bryan was. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:10:00 -0700 From: "Neil Ashar" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bryan's Jewish Soul - -----Original Message----- From: Victor Hastings To: avalon@smoe.org Date: Monday, September 07, 1998 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bryan's Jewish Soul > >-----Original Message----- >From: ASchulberg@aol.com >To: avalon@smoe.org >Date: Monday, September 07, 1998 8:32 PM >Subject: [AVALON] Bryan's Jewish Soul > > >(snip) > >> Well, I can't speak for how prevalent the use of "s[c]hmaltz" is in >> British English--I'll leave that to the native speakers and/or the >> Anglophiles amongst us--but it's certainly part of American English. >> [discussion of vaudeville, Tin Pan Alley, etc., snipped] > >i have always assumed that the line 'mashed potato schmaltz' referred to the >early sixties dance tune of the same name. i can't recall the performer; >carole king may have been involved either as artist or writer or both, but i >am not sure. > >'mashed potato' was really schmaltzy. it would fit. > Especially thinking of its use in the Catskills resort film Dirty Dancing -- how appropriate ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:01:59 +0200 From: "Michael Hillman" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bryan Ferryovitz - ---------- > From: ccd@DATAWEB.NL > To: avalon@smoe.org > Subject: Re: [AVALON] Mashed Potato Shmaltz > Date: 08 September 1998 05.50 > > "Michael Hillman" wrote: > >...(I cannot conduct a > >conversation in Yiddish but I know a hell of a lot of Yiddish slang) as > >well as being extremely expressive... > > > >excuse me for being such a shmerel causing this diversion from our usual > >discussion > > > >amazing in fact we end up discussing Yiddish on a BF/RM chatgroup!!! > > > >Michael > > NP Michael! > please explain "Oy Weh"(Oy Veh?)-The Thrill Of It All Oy Veh'z mir! I never noticed that in ten years of listening to that track. That's one of those expressions of negative surprise in Yiddish which doesn't translate! Michael ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V3 #224 **************************** ======================================================================== For further info, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info avalon-digest