From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V3 #182 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Thursday, July 23 1998 Volume 03 : Number 182 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative [Dawndalian@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] So, Who Wants A Copy? [POE1527@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative [Heather Marie Propes ] Re: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative [HipChip ] [AVALON] Gary Tibbs [jspellma@techadvisers.com] Re: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative [ASchulberg@aol.com] [AVALON] Who Wants A Copy? [ASchulberg@aol.com] Re: [AVALON] Roxy Bass Players [ASchulberg@aol.com] RE: [AVALON] Bring Back Bryan's Manifesto, Dump Marx's Manifesto,please! ["Donna Caskey" ] Re[2]: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative [Stephen Scott Subject: Re: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 Dawndalian@aol.com wrote: > So there are some of you out here in Avalonia who cling to the notion that how > you speak and how your comport yourself and how you ar perceived by the > outside world has less to do about your success than how much tax dollars > your particular region garnishes from its residents. > > I have to agree, that sounds pretty bogus to me. The problem with "initiative" theories of those who perceive the world as a place in which one's self-determination is wholly responsible for one's sucess in life (i.e.,those who subscribe to Ayn Rand's philosophy of life) is that they can cite one or two examples of "perfect" or even "idealistic" cases of rags to riches stories and then use these to justify a policy of deteriorating social standards (lower taxes, less governments, more prisons) to which they subscribe. > The other problem is that these theories make is easy to see people in terms of two types, those who have "got it," in some abstract normative idea of what "it" is, and those who don't. They fail to see life and people in all of its complexity, a collectivity of talents and abilities, some of which will lead to commercial and economic sucess, and some of which won't. I subscribe to a liberal, social-welfare ideology which says, "Some people will become rich and some won't. All the more power to those who become rich. But people have the right to happiness in life and a certain level of material comfort even if wealth is not their life's destiny, or their personal goal." I believe that it is necessary to embrace the whole sphere of human life, not just those who are rich or those who are working their way to sucess. Yes, wealth is wonderful, riches are wonderful, travel is wonderful, and so are dream houses, but when you aren't eating enough in school because your parents can't afford school lunches, and when there are kids outside your house selling crack and destroying the lives of people you know, and when your mom has to work "flippin' burgers" for $5.15 and hour because the limo-and-five-star-catering set in Washinton have decided that it would be good for her "initiative" to send her out into the work place and let the streets take care of her babies, then I think that a whole new set of priorities, beyond and above learning to speak "proper English" present themselves. I don't think one can apply to Fortune 500 companies, or even office jobs, until the basic resources needed to maintain a healthy mind and body, namely, adequate textbooks, food, a safe and quiet place to study, and mentors who have the time and resouces to do their jobs adequately (in short, all the "material" needs which mysteriously elude conservatives when they are talking ambition) are provided. And I think the only way to guarantee the improvement of the lives of the "have-nots," is for the rest of us "haves" to talk and think in terms of social responsibility, not justification. Heather Propes > Since I have worked in my parents businesses for the past 20 years, and also > am in charge of hiring and firing their employees, I can tell you right now, > that if their grammar is poor, and their attitude is too, say, for example, > "cholo" (for those of yor who aren't familiar with that term, it means someone > who carries themselves like a Hispanic La Raza gang member), they won't last > in any sort of quality job. Hell, they cna't even get in the door! Might as > well head to McDonald's and plan a lifetime of flippin' burgers. > > Now before you all start howling at me for your interpretation of me (racist), > I should imform you that I am married to a Latino man who grew up in the > Barrios of East LA, and came from complete poverty.And I am now fluent in > Spanish because of him. How did he get so far in life? Well, has crappy > neighbouhood did not keep him down, nor did the evil greedy corporations, no, > he actaully WENT to school and learned something, and did well. It is called > Initiative. Ambiton. Work ethic. And most of all, knowing what it takes to be > successful. Examples of success abound ... just look around, and do what the > sucessful ones do. Lose the ebonics, (or whatever) and get your act together. > That is what, IMHO, is lacking.... > > Sorry, although I love to rant politics, I would rather see this group get > back to Music or even sexual fantasies (my fave).... > > "Can't we all just Get Along?" > > Dawne > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:52:54 -0500 From: HipChip Subject: Re: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative Heather, Perhaps you should consider moving to Norway, the only country on earth where your socialist utopia exists - so long as their oil reserves are not depleted. The welfare state only serves to perpetuate itself indefinitely and I don't care to pay for it. I prefer to choose to where my alms go; and I do so very generously and discretely "without my right hand knowingwhat my left hand is doing." In the meanwhile, let's get back to Mssr Ferry and Roxy Music. This really has become the Rush Limbaugh discussion group [or Louis Farrakahn's (?sp)] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:01:18 EDT From: Dawndalian@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bring Back Bryan's Manifesto, Dump Marx's Manifesto,please! In a message dated 7/22/98 12:07:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, asbuch@midway.uchicago.edu writes: > > your parents can't afford school lunches, and when there are kids outside > your house selling crack and destroying the lives of people you know, and > when your mom has to work "flippin' burgers" for $5.15 and hour because > the limo-and-five-star-catering set in Washinton have decided that it > would be good for her "initiative" to send her out into the work place and > let the streets take care of her babies, then I think that a whole new set > of priorities, beyond and above learning to speak "proper English" present > themselves. Heather, The above scenario sounds IDENTICAL to my husband's childhood.. But again, it boils down to... What Do You Want To Do With Your Life? My husband chose to GO to school (public, scary ones in East LA), DO the homework (not drugs with the Homies) LISTEN to teachers...(not shoot them) and lo and behold, he is a Doctor now. He had the desire to do MORE than be some Cholo in the barrio.... and THAT is what saved him, not some Program from the Government... I for one would rather see this group get back to All Things Fine And Ferry, as opposed to becoming a launchpad for someone's Political Ideas.... I don't care to hear Marx's Manifesto here. I am here to hear Bryan's Manifesto....And I think many others would agree. I enjoy the rant, but I the "World According To Marxists" has no place here on this list, just as the "World According to Reagan Republicans" has no business here either.... I would keep this all private, but mail blocks have prevented me. Dawne the Dawndalian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:33:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Heather Marie Propes Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bring Back Bryan's Manifesto, Dump Marx's Manifesto,please! > I enjoy the rant, but I the "World According To Marxists" has no place here on > this list, just as the "World According to Reagan Republicans" has no business > here either.... I would keep this all private, but mail blocks have prevented > me. > For some reason, I think these discussions go on every place BUT the marxist/Reagan mailing lists. But I'm happy to stop whenever you guys are! Heatherita> > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:16:42 -0400 From: jspellma@techadvisers.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative Dawn wrote: >..........Examples of success abound ... just look around, and do what the >sucessful ones do. Lose the ebonics, (or whatever) and get your act together. >That is what, IMHO, is lacking.... Dawn, Neither my ex-wife or any of her family speak in Ebonics. Schooled in the Islands their education was far superior to mine, yet I found success with far fewer barriers. Why should they have to work harder? Why should my 20 yr. old nephew have the cops pull a gun to his head ( twice in the last year) because he "looks like" someone else? This has never happened to his white friends. Being black in America can really suck. It can get discouraging after a while. I've noticed people treat me far differently alone as to in their company. Fortunately, before we split I moved my kids out of Hyde Park where we were called the N word almost daily. She and her family have finally done well from ignoring the insults and not letting the bastards wear them down, it had nothing to do with "losing the Ebonics and getting their act together". Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:39:05 EDT From: Dawndalian@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative Jim, I really have a tremedous amount of empathy for your situation...sincerely. The discussion was about the way people talk, accents, dialects and the like. All I wanted to point out is, is that How you talk, and how your carry yourself takes you a whole Hell of a lot further in life than How many food stamps or gov. program you are enrolled in. That goes for Causcasians as well. I would not hire a toothless white-trasher to work for me, just b/c they are White. I hire based on Skill Level, competency, and professionalism, colour and ethinicity do not matter (I have in my employ 2 Hispanics and one Caucasian). I brought up the ebonics concept (not all African Americans speak it, I know) because I thought it clearly illustrated the Fact that no matter HOW much $$ you throw at a prob, if you don't fix from WITHIN the person, you get nowhere FAST. I would not hire someone who could not speak proper English. Period. I think it truly SUCKS having cops mindF*** people and threaten them b/c of ethnitcity. I am not questioning that it exists.In fact, that is an entirely different topic. I am just saying that if people worked at bettering themselves they would not have to RELY on others. Self-Reliance is a GREAT thing! Now THAT is Truly Liberating!! So, Jim please know that I am on your side, okay? And let's bring back all those Terribly important queries about Who Is Bass Player When, better yet, let's bring back The Vapor Man. Regards, Dawne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:29:43 -0400 From: jspellma@techadvisers.com Subject: [AVALON] Enough is Enough Thanks Dawn, I'm on your side as well. I agree this isn't the place but It's hard to read this stuff and not respond. Now for some real issues. Hey Arnie what happened to the rest of the reviews? Did they stop at Siren or did Vapor Man scare you away? I liked reading these. It cracks me up how he rags on an album then gives it an A-. That's like a 9 out 10 right? Like he wants to hate it but just can't. JV never did respond to Heather's challenge did he? Inquiring minds want to know. Peace from the East. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:36:29 EDT From: Dawndalian@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Enough is Enough JSpell, Yeah, the Vapor Man did not even respond to my Fantasy with Mr. Ferry composition... Where IS he? That guy is why I stay on this list!!!! Aside, of course, people like YOU! Thanks, Dawne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:55:31 From: Stephen Scott Subject: [none] For the little its worth, I vote for moving the politics and social analysis to another forum. Not for the least reason than its an absolutely pointless exercise, as it does not relate to many of us in different countries. Solve your social problems elsewhere. Please!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:31:46 -0400 From: jspellma@techadvisers.com Subject: [AVALON] Gary Tibbs The following paragraph is from the liner notes of Roxy "Concert Classics" 1979. - -----The groups heart, Ferry, McKay, Manzenera - is fleshed out by Gary Tibbs (achieving the notable distinction of playing bass a second time around) Paul Thompson on drums, and keyboardist David Skinner.----- Does that mean Tibbs played in the old Roxy? Or is Roxy's idea of a 2nd time around playing on the album and the tour? Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:37:25 EDT From: ASchulberg@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative People, people, people. Can't we all just get along and get back to dissecting the music and motives of Roxiana? Jeez, this political stuff is BORING. Get back on topic, s'il vous plais. Arnie (and don't bother correcting my French, if it's wrong) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:40:32 EDT From: ASchulberg@aol.com Subject: [AVALON] Who Wants A Copy? Gene Guess I missed it. What are we talking about copying? Arnie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:43:31 EDT From: ASchulberg@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Roxy Bass Players In a message dated 98-07-21 09:39:16 EDT, you write: << decophile@pipeline.com (Decophile) Sender: owner-avalon@smoe.org >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:49:34 -0400 From: "Donna Caskey" Subject: RE: [AVALON] Bring Back Bryan's Manifesto, Dump Marx's Manifesto,please! God bless Ronald Reagan! > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-avalon@smoe.org [mailto:owner-avalon@smoe.org]On Behalf Of > Heather Marie Propes > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 4:33 PM > To: Dawndalian@aol.com > Cc: avalon@smoe.org > Subject: Re: [AVALON] Bring Back Bryan's Manifesto, Dump Marx's > Manifesto,please! > > > > I enjoy the rant, but I the "World According To Marxists" has > no place here on > > this list, just as the "World According to Reagan Republicans" > has no business > > here either.... I would keep this all private, but mail blocks > have prevented > > me. > > > For some reason, I think these discussions go on every place BUT the > marxist/Reagan mailing lists. > > But I'm happy to stop whenever you guys are! > > Heatherita> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:49:40 -0400 From: "Donna Caskey" Subject: RE: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative God bless Rush Limbaugh! > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-avalon@smoe.org [mailto:owner-avalon@smoe.org]On Behalf Of > HipChip > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 3:53 PM > To: avalon@smoe.org > Subject: Re: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative > > > Heather, > > Perhaps you should consider moving to Norway, the only country on earth > where your socialist utopia exists - so long as their oil reserves are > not depleted. The welfare state only serves to perpetuate itself > indefinitely and I don't care to pay for it. I prefer to choose to > where my alms go; and I do so very generously and discretely "without my > right hand knowingwhat my left hand is doing." > > In the meanwhile, let's get back to Mssr Ferry and Roxy Music. This > really has become the Rush Limbaugh discussion group [or Louis > Farrakahn's (?sp)] > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:38:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Heather Marie Propes Subject: RE: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative Viva Jimmy Buffet! http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/asbuch/index.htm#hometop Heather Marie Propes asbuch@midway.uchicago.edu On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Donna Caskey wrote: > God bless Rush Limbaugh! > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-avalon@smoe.org [mailto:owner-avalon@smoe.org]On Behalf Of > > HipChip > > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 3:53 PM > > To: avalon@smoe.org > > Subject: Re: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative > > > > > > Heather, > > > > Perhaps you should consider moving to Norway, the only country on earth > > where your socialist utopia exists - so long as their oil reserves are > > not depleted. The welfare state only serves to perpetuate itself > > indefinitely and I don't care to pay for it. I prefer to choose to > > where my alms go; and I do so very generously and discretely "without my > > right hand knowingwhat my left hand is doing." > > > > In the meanwhile, let's get back to Mssr Ferry and Roxy Music. This > > really has become the Rush Limbaugh discussion group [or Louis > > Farrakahn's (?sp)] > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:38:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Heather Marie Propes Subject: RE: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative Hooray for Micky Mouse! http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/asbuch/index.htm#hometop Heather Marie Propes asbuch@midway.uchicago.edu On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Donna Caskey wrote: > God bless Rush Limbaugh! > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-avalon@smoe.org [mailto:owner-avalon@smoe.org]On Behalf Of > > HipChip > > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 3:53 PM > > To: avalon@smoe.org > > Subject: Re: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative > > > > > > Heather, > > > > Perhaps you should consider moving to Norway, the only country on earth > > where your socialist utopia exists - so long as their oil reserves are > > not depleted. The welfare state only serves to perpetuate itself > > indefinitely and I don't care to pay for it. I prefer to choose to > > where my alms go; and I do so very generously and discretely "without my > > right hand knowingwhat my left hand is doing." > > > > In the meanwhile, let's get back to Mssr Ferry and Roxy Music. This > > really has become the Rush Limbaugh discussion group [or Louis > > Farrakahn's (?sp)] > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:13:31 -0400 From: jspellma@techadvisers.com Subject: [AVALON] Curved Air Curved Air, did Eddie Jobson play in this band? Anybody heard it? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 00:28:43 EDT From: Dawndalian@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative In a message dated 7/22/98 7:40:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, asbuch@midway.uchicago.edu writes: > > Hooray for Micky Mouse! > the above in reference to a mention of Reagan) Hey Gang, in the name of Fairness, I guess we should include some Commies..... cheer hooray for Mass Murderer Josef Stalin..... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 98 14:33:36 +1000 From: Jeffrey Hogan Subject: Re: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative >> >> Hooray for Micky Mouse! >> >the above in reference to a mention of Reagan) >Hey Gang, in the name of Fairness, I guess we should include some Commies..... >cheer hooray for Mass Murderer Josef Stalin..... Would someone PLEASE let someone else have the last word on this? Jeff Hogan. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 15:27:41 EST From: "Paul Geiger" Subject: Re: [AVALON] "If There Is Something" on VIVA! While the subject of class vs. class rages on, as the temperature hits 98 degrees here in NYC, I'd just thought I suggest a Roxy related activity - something I just did -- Print out Arnie's description of ITIS on VIVA! , and take it to the stereo and listen to the song again. Now I've always loved this song (and VIVA! in it's entirety) but accompanied by this description I appreciate it even more than before. It caused me to listen specifically to parts that I've appreciated subconsciously (PT's drums, the mellotron?) and brought them front and center. I think he's really nailed the essence of this version of the song. Anyone else who feels passionately descriptive about a Roxy song -- my CD tray is open! Paul (back to extreme lurking mode) ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [AVALON] "If There Is Something" on VIVA! Author: avalon@smoe.org at INTERNET-MAIL Date: 7/17/98 1:50 PM My recommendation of the performance of ITIS on VIVA! caused me to dig out the cd and I'm listening to it right now. It starts out light, a little "country"-ish, with Eddie sounding very much like a fiddle player and Phil playing twangy even in his first solo. After Phil's first solo the tune starts to bear a stronger resemblance to its original performance. Now Bryan and the boys are in earnest, they're done fooling around with the song, starting to sound more "Roxy," in my opinion. Then the song quiets down for Phil's second solo which is a masterpiece. Wish I had it on video to watch his work. Very stirring and soulful. Followed by the tension of Eddie's violin interlude with the crowd and the music hushed. The band crashes back in, everyone blazing. Now quiet again as Andy slowly, mournfully, solos as Eddie tastefully accompanies. Now the dramatic highpoint. Just Paul Thompson (the song's MVP?) nailing the drums solidly and Bryan (or is it Eddie?) on piano with the starkest chords as Bryan, so emotionally, sings backed by Andy and Phil (maybe John Wetton??). Now goosebump time as the band re-enters backed by mellotron (it sounds like to me) so that it sounds like an orchestra or chorus supporting Bryan's wrenching vocals. For all those who think of Roxy as a decadent or effete art-rock band, this performance surely belies those perceptions. Arnie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:38:26 From: Stephen Scott Subject: [none] Yes, Eddie played in Curved Air. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:39:19 From: Stephen Scott Subject: Re[2]: [AVALON] Show us the money, show me initiative How about, "Shut Up" (Sorry, thats two words) In your message you wrote: >>> >>> Hooray for Micky Mouse! >>> > >>the above in reference to a mention of Reagan) > >>Hey Gang, in the name of Fairness, I guess we should include some Commies..... >>cheer hooray for Mass Murderer Josef Stalin..... > > > >Would someone PLEASE let someone else have the last word on this? > >Jeff Hogan. > > ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V3 #182 **************************** ======================================================================== Please send any questions or comments about the list to avalon-digest-owner@smoe.org