From: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org (avalon-digest) To: avalon-digest@smoe.org Subject: avalon-digest V3 #166 Reply-To: avalon@smoe.org Sender: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-avalon-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk avalon-digest Tuesday, July 7 1998 Volume 03 : Number 166 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [AVALON] Ferry - Bowie [Roberto Galvez ] Re: [AVALON] Re: [ASchulberg@aol.com] [AVALON] Re: Eddie Riff [Dan Kelly ] [AVALON] Which came 1st: the Bowie or the Ferry? [JIM DONATO ] Re: [AVALON] Allen Schwartzberg (fwd) [KissNTime@aol.com] [AVALON] Re: Scott Walker [erik simpson ] [AVALON] Re: Ange [erik simpson ] Re: [AVALON] Connections [jspellma@techadvisers.com] Re: [AVALON] Which came 1st: the Bowie or the Ferry? [jspellma@techadvise] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 06:31:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Roberto Galvez Subject: [AVALON] Ferry - Bowie At 11:43 2/07/98 -0400, you wrote: >I have a question of all you knowledgeable Ferryphiles. I know that >David Bowie recorded before BR, but did Bowie copy BF vocal affects. >Bowie seems to sound an awfully like BF in songs lke Golden Year? I think we''l find notorious Roxy and Ferry influences on Bowie in 'Boys Keep Swinging' and 'Red Sails' from Bowie's 'Lodger'. In the former it seems we have Jobson on violin , Gustafson on bass (besides the real Eno who played in that album)and an early-Manzanera solo (from Belew). In 'Red Sails' it seems Manzanera is playing all over the song ,and in the end Bowie sings :' And it's fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-far away away da da da da da da (etc) ' really influenced by Ferry's vocals in'Virginia Plain'. Roberto. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 07:38:22 EDT From: ASchulberg@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: In a message dated 98-07-01 17:22:41 EDT, you write: << I forget...was it Ian McDonald? I think he was the keyboardist/mellotron player for the early early Crimson....I might be wrong though >> Ian played reeds and keyboards in the first incarnation of King Crimson. Arnie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 09:49:42 -0400 From: Dan Kelly Subject: [AVALON] Re: Eddie Riff jspellma@techadvisers.com wrote: > Andy McKay "In search of Eddie ?" 1974 Vinyl (Andy looks like a teen idol > on a red cover) this is Andy's first solo lp "In Search of Eddie Riff". was released in 2 versions: originally included a few songs w/ vocals, 2nd version was all instrumentals, the vocal songs being removed & replaced w/ new songs. I think the 2nd version included Andy's hit "Wild Weekend". Not a terrible lp, but 2nd version is more interesring. 1st version had Andy singing "A four-legged friend". I had both versions, the vocal verson autographed by Andy at a free concert Roxy did at Swathmore college in 1974. Was stolen, along w/ my autographed "For Your Pleasure" & 1st B.Ferry lps. dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 10:29:42 -0400 From: JIM DONATO Subject: [AVALON] Which came 1st: the Bowie or the Ferry? I always felt that Bowie more readily reflected the Roxy influence what with his appropriation of ENO for his best albums. Vocally his early years are unduly influenced by Anthony Newley but by the time of 72-73 his singing seems more in line with Ferry's crooning. If Ferry was influenced by Low that he was taking back what was already his, in a matter of speaking. In the last 5 years though, I have been reading an awful lot about Mr. Scott Walker and to anyone who is familiar with him he seems to be the meta-influence [aside from The Velvets] on both Ferry and Bowie. Scott started out in a pop combo called The Walker Brothers who though American, had enormous success [only] in the UK during the mid-60s. Scott split by 67 for a dramatic solo career marked by his own influence [at least in subject matter] of popular continental singers Jacques Brel and Serge Gainesbourg. Scott's powerful crooning was definitely his own though. At this same time he was popular enough in the UK to have his own TV show. A few years later when Messrs. Ferry and Bowie got their own careers seriously underway it was Scott's vocal style that was the touchstone for their own explorations. Some of the more intense Roxy songs from "For Your Pleasure" and especially "Country Life" bear the strong imprint of Walker. Bowie even covered Walker's brilliant '79 composition "Night Flights" on his uneven but ultimately worthy "Black Tie/White Noise" album of '93. It was the definite highlight of that waxing and a treat on the subsequent "Outside " tour. Right now I'm listening to "Boy Child" [liner notes by Scott acolyte Marc Almond] a UK Walker compilation of 67-70 tracks and it is whetting my appetite for more. The most obvious vocal reference to Walker's style for young moderns is Julian Cope, who has never made his admiration of Walker a secret. He even compiled a Scott Walker best of in the early 80's with the audacious title: "Fire Escape In The Sky - The Godlike Genius of Scott Walker." If you have heard Julian Cope, imagine that voice with more control and you have Walker in a nutshell. Much has been mentioned of late on this list of "Tilt," Walkers most recent album of a year or 2 ago. It has a reputation for being a most challenging and audacious record and if Roxy fans want to hear what Ferry or Bowie might sound like in the next millenium they would do well to seek it out. It's next on my purchase list! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:31:24 -0500 From: "Victor Hastings" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Which came 1st: the Bowie or the Ferry? - -----Original Message----- From: JIM DONATO To: avalon@smoe.org Date: Monday, July 06, 1998 9:44 AM Subject: [AVALON] Which came 1st: the Bowie or the Ferry? >In the last 5 years though, I have been reading an awful lot about >Mr.Scott Walker and to anyone who is familiar with him he seems to >be the meta-influence [aside from The Velvets] on both Ferry and >Bowie. (snip) interesting -- i've never heard of him. a friend once told me that ferry drew heavily on a french group of the late 60s/early 70s called "ange" when he created the roxy sound. alas, i've never been able to find any of their work, so i can't verify this. has anybody ever heard of this group? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:15:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Colleen Matan Subject: [AVALON] Allen Schwartzberg (fwd) hey y'all, any help you can provide will be appreciated. Colleen - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 18:19:41 +0000 From: scenicd@ix.netcom.com To: matanc@gusun.georgetown.edu Subject: Allen Schwartzberg Hi, I am trying to find out what band Allen Schwartzberg would have been playing with in the early 70s. He is a drummer and was listed in the Roxy Music FAQ. Any help will be appreciated. Daryl Smith scenicd@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:37:23 -0500 From: skgeist@juno.com (Sarah K Geist) Subject: [AVALON] Allen Schwartzberg I'm trying to get info for this person - please post whatever you know to Avalon and I'll contact Daryl - Thanks, Sarah - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 18:19:41 +0000 From: scenicd@ix.netcom.com To: matanc@gusun.georgetown.edu Subject: Allen Schwartzberg Hi, I am trying to find out what band Allen Schwartzberg would have been playing with in the early 70s. He is a drummer and was listed in the Roxy Music FAQ. Any help will be appreciated. Daryl Smith scenicd@ix.netcom.com - --------- End forwarded message ---------- _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:49:12 EDT From: ShyGuy8119@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Allen Schwartzberg In a message dated 98-07-06 15:47:30 EDT, you write: << I'm trying to get info for this person - please post whatever you know to Avalon and I'll contact Daryl - >> I know he was a very popular session drummer in the 70s...I think he played on Gene Simmons' (from KISS) solo album...I don't know what's happened to him as of late.... Paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:08:33 +0100 From: Bahi Para Subject: Re: [AVALON] Which came 1st: the Bowie or the Ferry? Jim Donato wrote: > to anyone who is familiar with him [Scott Walker] seems to be the >meta-influence (aside from The Velvets) on both Ferry and Bowie. Less clear with Ferry than with Bowie. And Bowie has made no secret of his admiration for Walker's music... >"Tilt" [...] has a reputation for being a most challenging and audacious >record Tilt is fantastic and it's a real pity that Bryan chose to turn away from doing anything similar. >and if Roxy fans want to hear what Ferry or Bowie might sound >like in the next millenium they would do well to seek it out It may be seen differently in the future but on its release, Tilt appealed to a far smaller group of people than did something like Mamouna or Bete Noire. Ferry's audience may be (in proportion) miniscule in the US but in the UK and much of Europe, his is still a household name and no recent Ferry album has entered the UK charts outside the Top 10. Boys and Girls *entered* at number 1. Each new album generates acres of coverage (no longer in the contemporary music press, just the glossy monthlies). The man has some way to go to turn into a Scott Walker. And while Valentine, The Chosen One and Boys & Girls all pointed toward darker, more experimental music, any subsequent journey in that direction seems to have been postponed. Perhaps, as you say, sometime in the next century. The sooner the better. When Eno worked on Mamouna, you get the impression that he made the album more unusual, slightly more off the wall, albeit in a jokey, playful way. When Eno (and Lanois) worked with Walker, the project was binned, after Walker (by more than one account) felt that he was being pressured into being too commercial. Nothing could make the differences clearer. Parts of each of his last four albums show what great things Ferry could do should he choose to go without the critical and commercial interest that accompanies each new release. As great as it is, Tilt ultimately doesn't have the depth you'd expect of a Ferry album of that kind. I'm not too fond of Bowie's stuff but there's an interesting part of Eno's "A Year (With Swollen Appendices)" in which Brian describes his fear that Bowie would abandon everything they'd recorded for "1. Outside" should Walker's album turn out to be similar. That album was Tilt, and similar it wasn't. >It's next on my purchase list! It's bizarre and inspiring. Play it really loud. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 23:40:04 +0300 From: "Michael Hillman" Subject: Re: [AVALON] Which came 1st: the Bowie or the Ferry? Bahi I beg to differ...Mamouna I believe entered the UK charts at around 32 and disappeared shortly thereafter, if I am not mistaken...none of the singles reached even the top 40 again if I am not mistaken...the biggest "hit" single he had of "recent" was "I Put a Spell on You" which entered UK charts @ no.18, stayed there for a couple of weeks and then went down He is a household name of sorts but in a nostalgic sort of way - people of my age (26) sometimes remember one or two singles such as "Slave to Love" although older people generally remember Roxy Music as a 70's band It obviously was disappointing to see Mamouna had such little success particularly as BF had spent 7 years working on it and apparently a very great deal of money - he had to sell a property he had in New York to continue to finance the project... I really wonder how he feels himself about his success or lack of it recently; perhaps he earns enough from royalties etc. that it is not so important to him - i.e. that he can just relax and take as long as he likes over an album without worrying about getting forgotten about I read some article of an interview when he said his voice probably has another ten years left; so let's say that was two years ago at the rate he is going his next album may very well be the last one which is quite a shame Michael **************************************** Michael Hillman 65B Tchernikovsky Street Jerusalem 92587 Israel Tel: ++ 972 2 561 2359 Fax: ++ 972 2 563 8374 Email: michaelh@actcom.co.il **************************************** - ---------- > From: Bahi Para > To: avalon@smoe.org > Subject: Re: [AVALON] Which came 1st: the Bowie or the Ferry? > Date: 07 July 1998 00.08 > > Jim Donato wrote: > > > to anyone who is familiar with him [Scott Walker] seems to be the > >meta-influence (aside from The Velvets) on both Ferry and Bowie. > > Less clear with Ferry than with Bowie. And Bowie has made no secret of his > admiration for Walker's music... > > >"Tilt" [...] has a reputation for being a most challenging and audacious > >record > > Tilt is fantastic and it's a real pity that Bryan chose to turn away from > doing anything similar. > > >and if Roxy fans want to hear what Ferry or Bowie might sound > >like in the next millenium they would do well to seek it out > > It may be seen differently in the future but on its release, Tilt appealed > to a far smaller group of people than did something like Mamouna or Bete > Noire. Ferry's audience may be (in proportion) miniscule in the US but in > the UK and much of Europe, his is still a household name and no recent > Ferry album has entered the UK charts outside the Top 10. Boys and Girls > *entered* at number 1. Each new album generates acres of coverage (no > longer in the contemporary music press, just the glossy monthlies). The man > has some way to go to turn into a Scott Walker. > > And while Valentine, The Chosen One and Boys & Girls all pointed toward > darker, more experimental music, any subsequent journey in that direction > seems to have been postponed. Perhaps, as you say, sometime in the next > century. The sooner the better. > > When Eno worked on Mamouna, you get the impression that he made the album > more unusual, slightly more off the wall, albeit in a jokey, playful way. > When Eno (and Lanois) worked with Walker, the project was binned, after > Walker (by more than one account) felt that he was being pressured into > being too commercial. Nothing could make the differences clearer. > > Parts of each of his last four albums show what great things Ferry could do > should he choose to go without the critical and commercial interest that > accompanies each new release. As great as it is, Tilt ultimately doesn't > have the depth you'd expect of a Ferry album of that kind. > > I'm not too fond of Bowie's stuff but there's an interesting part of Eno's > "A Year (With Swollen Appendices)" in which Brian describes his fear that > Bowie would abandon everything they'd recorded for "1. Outside" should > Walker's album turn out to be similar. That album was Tilt, and similar it > wasn't. > > >It's next on my purchase list! > > It's bizarre and inspiring. Play it really loud. > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 23:23:41 +0100 From: Bahi Para Subject: Re: [AVALON] Which came 1st: the Bowie or the Ferry? Michael Hillman wrote: >I beg to differ...Mamouna I believe entered the UK charts at around 32 and >disappeared shortly thereafter, if I am not mistaken I had no idea it did that badly but you're probably right. Taxi, though, was a top 5 album and featured in at least one "best of the year" summary. Not exactly a strong seller but not a Scott Walker album by any means. Nor Bete Noire, which entered within the Top 10, too. You're right about the singles - they do badly unless they're covers (and have done since Boys & Girls). But his success and, more importantly, image mean that Ferry gets a lots of coverage. A lot of people are interested because, on the surface, the music's not difficult enough to be off-putting for media types in search of an easy listen. Moving into Scott Walker territory would see Bryan losing one set of fans but winning another. My point is that the latter is far smaller in number. (Er..probably. Number 32! Much, much worse than I'd thought...are you sure?) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:21:28 +0100 From: John Kent Subject: RE: [AVALON] Re: Ian can also be found on the "Tokyo Tapes" as part of Steve Hacketts band. John Kent > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-avalon@smoe.org [mailto:owner-avalon@smoe.org]On Behalf Of > ASchulberg@aol.com > Sent: 06 July 1998 12:38 > To: avalon@smoe.org > Subject: Re: [AVALON] Re: > > > In a message dated 98-07-01 17:22:41 EDT, you write: > > << > I forget...was it Ian McDonald? I think he was the keyboardist/mellotron > player for the early early Crimson....I might be wrong though >> > > Ian played reeds and keyboards in the first incarnation of King Crimson. > > Arnie > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 21:04:36 EDT From: KissNTime@aol.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Allen Schwartzberg (fwd) In a message dated 98-07-06 14:19:56 EDT, you write: << hey y'all, any help you can provide will be appreciated. Colle >> Hello....what is the question about Allen Schwartzberg?? Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 18:24:17 -0700 From: erik simpson Subject: [AVALON] Re: Scott Walker At 10:08 PM 7/6/98 +0100, you wrote: >>"Tilt" [...] has a reputation for being a most challenging and audacious >>record > >Tilt is fantastic and it's a real pity that Bryan chose to turn away from >doing anything similar. >>It's next on my purchase list! > >It's bizarre and inspiring. Play it really loud. Also very much worth checking out is Walkers relatively obscure "Climate of Hunter" from '83. And the next time you start to fret about Ferrys slow output, take a look at Scott Walker and his 2 albums in the last 20 years. Still, I would love to hear what Eno and Lanois could have done with Walker. Good to read that there are some other SW fans on the list. Also worth noting is that the relatively obscure, and now defunct I suspect, (Irish?, British?) band the Fatima Mansions did an excellent cover of "Nite Flights" right about the same time as Bowie, which I liked better than Bowies. But nobody will ever beat the Walker Brothers version. It's just one of those perfectly realised songs, where it seems the closer someone stays to the original, the better a cover it is. Bye; Erik S Erik Simpson eriks@on-ramp.ior.com http://www.ior.com/~eriks ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 18:26:30 -0700 From: erik simpson Subject: [AVALON] Re: Ange At 10:31 AM 7/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >a friend once told me that ferry drew heavily on a french group of the late >60s/early 70s called "ange" when he created the roxy sound. alas, i've >never been able to find any of their work, so i can't verify this. has >anybody ever heard of this group? This isn't much to go on, but I dug out my Rhino 5 disc "Supernatural Fairy Tales" prog-rock collection which has 1 track by them and listened to it more closely (as it had never made much of an impression on me before). To be honest i don't see much of a relationship here, but one song isn't much to go on either, no matter how representative it might be. The liner notes call them the French Genesis, which makes more sense w/lots of mellotron. The guitar has a harsher edge than most music of this type. Still, not much to go on. Maybe someone else knows more. As an aside, this is a fairly interesting collection. They define Progressive Rock fairly openly. There's the obvious stuff; ELP, Yes, Genesis. There's some Krautrock; Amon Duul II, Can, Faust. There's Roxy (2 songs! The only others to get 2 songs are ELP, Yes and Genesis) w/"Ladytron" and "Virginia Plain" and Quiet Sun (Manzanera, Eno, etc.) w/"Mummy was an Asteroid, Daddy was a Small Non-Stick Kitchen Utensil". There's some classic stuff like Traffic, Procol Harum, the Nice. And there's a bunch of stuff by lesser known but still top notch artists such as Van Der Graff Generator, Magma, Kingdom Come, Strawbs, Hatfield and the North, Gong, Henry Cow, etc. And a couple of head scratchers like Golden Earring and Wishbone Ash, which stretch even the very loose definition of Prog that is being used here. The only American act to make the set was Frank Zappa and the Mothers. Oh, and one GLARING omission. No King Crimson. I'm assuming this was a contractual problem. Bye; Erik S Erik Simpson eriks@on-ramp.ior.com http://www.ior.com/~eriks ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:18:13 -0400 From: jspellma@techadvisers.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Connections Jas wrote: .............As for Gang of Four. I can not say enough about them. I saw them everytime they plyed here starting in 1981.I even got a chance to chat with them after two of their concerts. They were gracious ans were grateful that people came out to see them. As in the case of Ferry/Roxy, only one radio staion here in Chicago cared enough to even seek them out, play them, and promote to promote their efforts-WXRT. This is how I found out about both and I think I'm a better person for it. Jas Yes we have only one station here, WFNX. Everyone else is play it safe radio. This is where I heard GOF. Also the only place you will hear deeper cuts of Ferry/Roxy. They're not in constant rotation but they don't pretend it never happened either. About a month ago in between Scott Weiland and Blur they played "Editions of You". I was stunned. They do take chances, on Saturday nights they play punk and funk, literally. They'll play The Jam, then Gene Knight, then the Sex Pistols, then Parliament. All in a row, then 1/2 hour of reg programming and then do another pair or two. Everyone thought they were crazy, except the people that listen. They do play a lot of crap though....... But I'll listen to crap I've never heard before over the same old crap any day. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:59:43 -0400 From: jspellma@techadvisers.com Subject: Re: [AVALON] Which came 1st: the Bowie or the Ferry? Michael Hillman wrote .....I really wonder how he feels himself about his success or lack >of it recently; perhaps he earns enough from royalties etc. that it is not so >important to him - i.e. that he can just relax and take as long as he likes >over an album without worrying about getting forgotten about........ I think those who remember always will, those who won't remember already forgot. I think it happens with every artist, one day they can't just crank out the hits. Maybe he tries to make up for it with production and that's why it takes so long. I think he would benefit from getting back into a band situation where the other guys had a lot of input and helped with songwriting. It did wonders in 1979. More push and pull and less isolation ....Hey Arnie, why can't you stoke up the EJ hotline and find out what's going on? Jim ------------------------------ End of avalon-digest V3 #166 **************************** ======================================================================== Please send any questions or comments about the list to avalon-digest-owner@smoe.org