From: owner-apple-tree-digest@smoe.org (apple-tree-digest) To: apple-tree-digest@smoe.org Subject: apple-tree-digest V1 #37 Reply-To: apple-tree@smoe.org Sender: owner-apple-tree-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-apple-tree-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk apple-tree-digest Sunday, August 30 1998 Volume 01 : Number 037 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #36 ["Roger Lai" ] RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #36 [Melis ] RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #36 ["Ethan Mitchell" ] RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #36 [Melis ] RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #36 ["Ethan Mitchell" ] If you don't vote for this one, YOU DIE! :p ["Ethan Mitchell" Subject: RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #36 > about it. This > debate has sparked up the mailing list, but it has also caused > some dissention > among us, which (hate to sound corny), Fiona wouldn't like. > Just wanna say one thing before I sign off and go to bed Ethan, I > don't think > there's anything wrong with drinking. (For some reason you > thought I did.) In > fact, I think the drinking age should be lowered, but that's > another subject. Why would Fiona care that her fans have differences of opinion? There's nothing wrong with people having differences of opinion - it's just each of us going with ourselves! Also, there's definitely nothing wrong with drinking, as long as it's done responsibly. For some reason, kids are taught that drinking is bad (often by parents who are social drinkers themselves). Roger ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 11:57:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Melis Subject: RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #36 > For some reason, kids are > taught that drinking is bad (often by parents who are social drinkers > themselves). > > Roger > > Just a thought that came to mind: I like Fiona's messages of "go with yourself", but let's face it, kids today like to imitate their favorite celebrities and icons. The big deal that was made of the awards speech, and the press's subsequent revelation that this was all alcohol-induced was probably not a good thing. Chalking your actions up to "I was a little drunk" seems to be an excuse, and I think it was probably a bad example to set for the kids. Just some food for thought. Melissa ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:43:23 +0000 From: "Ethan Mitchell" Subject: RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #36 > Just a thought that came to mind: I like Fiona's messages of "go with > yourself", but let's face it, kids today like to imitate their favorite > celebrities and icons. > The big deal that was made of the awards speech, and the press's > subsequent revelation that this was all alcohol-induced was probably not a > good thing. Chalking your actions up to "I was a little drunk" seems to > be an excuse, and I think it was probably a bad example to set for the > kids. > > Just some food for thought. > Melissa The whole point of her speech was to tell those kids to stop. And while the press or whoever likes to play up the fact that she drank before the speech, Fi never says chalks up her actions to that. Like, it's never been an excuse, nor should it be. And it's like, if people are telling you not to try to be like them, but then you ignore that and think it's OK for you to get drunk just cause they are, then you're a dumb fucknut and should be the only one to blame. Like, if Fi had decided to shoot herself in the head onstage right after her speech, and someone in the audience decided "Oh, Fi did that, I should too, cause it's obviously the cool thing to do," right after she told that audience member to go with himself and not to imitate celebreties just based on what they think is cool, then that person's really fucked up and needs to learn how to prioritize and could definitely use psychological help anyway. Ethan Ethan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 15:45:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Melis Subject: RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #36 > > The whole point of her speech was to tell those kids to stop. And > while the press or whoever likes to play up the fact that she drank > before the speech, Fi never says chalks up her actions to that. Like, > it's never been an excuse, nor should it be. And it's like, if > people are telling you not to try to be like them, but then you > ignore that and think it's OK for you to get drunk just cause they > are, then you're a dumb fucknut and should be the only one to blame. > Like, if Fi had decided to shoot herself in the head onstage right > after her speech, and someone in the audience decided "Oh, Fi did > that, I should too, cause it's obviously the cool thing to do," right > after she told that audience member to go with himself and not to > imitate celebreties just based on what they think is cool, then that > person's really fucked up and needs to learn how to prioritize and > could definitely use psychological help anyway. > > Ethan > I understand the point you're trying to make, but I believe you're exaggerating the situation with your example. I tend to think that most people see a distinct difference between having a drink and shooting yourself in the head, and wouldn't imitate such an act. You missed my point if you think I'm saying that kids are going to get drunk because fiona does. But if they do get drunk on their own accord, and then end up doing something they end up regretting (*NOT* to say that fiona regrets her speech) they've been reinforced with this image that it's ok for alcohol to be an excuse; it's become an *acceptable* justification for people's actions. I'm not saying that this is all fiona's fault. I'm merely pointing out that this reasoning has perpetuated throughout society and will become a model for kids if it's not nipped in the bud. Ok, I'm getting off my soapbox now :-) Melissa ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 15:58:04 +0000 From: "Ethan Mitchell" Subject: RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #36 > I'm not saying that this is all fiona's > fault. I'm merely pointing out that this reasoning has perpetuated > throughout society and will become a model for kids if it's not nipped in > the bud. > > Ok, I'm getting off my soapbox now :-) > > Melissa Obviously, and I think it's high time it's nipped in the bud. But i don't think it's any responsibility of the celebreities, because people have hugely different thresholds of what they find acceptable based on what celebreties do. If I feel something is OK to do because I've seen it done several times on TV, and I do it, I take responsibilty for it. These people on TV are just living their lives, and if someone is telling me not to imitate her, I think I can forgive her most of all for very indirectly giving me the impression that drinking is OK. Like, I just don't see this as an issue at all for Fiona, because it wasn't as though she was up there saying "I'm drunk." That came up afterwards and only in a few places subtly. But her speech was certainly not subtle. So if we're going into grey areas here, I think it's perfectly clear we should be blaming just about everyone else before we blame Fi for anything...or for any part in it. Certainly we might be able to attribute someone's drinking to here...like 5% of the reason or whatever. But I would certainly pardon her for that 5%. In other words, certainly someone's drinking will be *perpetuated* by that speech. And I respond to that: "So what?" If we say say that she should watch out for herself, that implies she must take some of the blame. And as I showed, I don't think she should. Ethan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 19:06:28 +0000 From: "Ethan Mitchell" Subject: If you don't vote for this one, YOU DIE! :p OK, WallofSound is asking visitors to vote for the best albums of the 90s, and Tidal is one of their 100 nominees! So go here and vote: http://www.wallofsound.com/features/stories/top_100_albums/90s/index_v oting.html Ethan ------------------------------ End of apple-tree-digest V1 #37 *******************************