From: owner-apple-tree-digest@smoe.org (apple-tree-digest) To: apple-tree-digest@smoe.org Subject: apple-tree-digest V1 #35 Reply-To: apple-tree@smoe.org Sender: owner-apple-tree-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-apple-tree-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk apple-tree-digest Friday, August 28 1998 Volume 01 : Number 035 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #34 ["Roger Lai" ] RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #33 ["Roger Lai" ] RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #33 ["Roger Lai" ] this whole thing [ChldisGone@aol.com] RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #33 ["Ethan Mitchell" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:41:45 -0700 From: "Roger Lai" Subject: RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #34 There's a drinking issue?!? I didn't know she'd been drinking. I haven't read the hundreds of articles, I'm just a fan of her music that happened to see the show and recently joined the list. So completely ignorant of anyone else's opinion of the speech, I made my own conclusions - way back after she had made the speech - that this was a sign of Fi's immaturity. Y'know, I've thought about this some more, and I guess that it's okay for her to be that way - because I was that way at her age... there's certainly no reason to expect her to be otherwise. I wish I had her energy. But being yourself does not mean being rebellious. Being yourself does not mean being rash or irrational. Being yourself means trusting your own thoughts, regardless of whether they are different or the same as other peoples' thoughts. So in this case, I guess my thoughts matched that of a lot of other people, and Fi's thoughts didn't. Drinking doesn't make you more "honest," just less inhibited and more rash. Are your first impressions always right? If you think, "Gee, that outfit makes her look ugly" - should you REALLY share that with your girlfriend? Even if it does make her look ugly, is it worth throwing away a relationship? Probably not to the sober person, but the drunk person has already called his or her girlfriend a fat cow before considering the real consequences. So how does this apply to Fi? She probably should have said something about being yourself without pissing people off. That would have gotten the message across to her fans, wouldn't it? Or does it have to be provocative in order for you to listen? I don't think there's anything wrong with what you say is her intended message - I do have a problem with the WAY that she said it, because her intended message was not the one that people heard. Can you honestly say that the message you got from the speech (just the speech, and not anything that she said to justify her speech) was "go with yourself"? The one I heard was kind of like that, but had a different word in the middle. Actually, I'm really sick of this, so let me just stop this thread right here. Feel free to respond, but I don't think it's doing anyone any good for me to try to explain this to you. I'm glad that you guys are still passionate enough to think anybody really cares about all this, but I'm getting too old to be arguing over silly things. I'll let you guys have the last word, if you want, because I know that's important to you. Roger ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:45:37 -0700 From: "Roger Lai" Subject: RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #33 Oops. I'm sorry, I skiped a digest and missed the whole drinking thread. Sorry about that. Roger ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:55:06 -0700 From: "Roger Lai" Subject: RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #33 Okay, sorry, I read a little more of the messages and realized that we're all pretty much in agreement. Fine. Be yourself. We're not arguing about that. The point, I think, is that it could have been said better. By being obnoxious, she was disrespectful of me as a member of the audience. What, I'm not smart enough to listen to what she says unless she pisses off a bunch of people? Saying "Hey kids, be yourself" isn't good enough? Get real -- she said what she said, and it didn't sound anything like her "intended" message. Maybe it doesn't make her an immature little brat. Maybe it just makes her an ineffective communicator. Maybe she's just a ungrateful little... anyhow, this is a waste of time, and you guys will change your minds when you get older - just mark my words. This is it. I mean it this time. No more. Roger "No more rhymes, I mean it!" "Anybody want a peanut?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 04:08:38 EDT From: ChldisGone@aol.com Subject: this whole thing one thing - Her intention was not to piss off a bunch of people. It's not as if she thought "Oh, hey... everyone is stupid... maybe if I piss off a bunch of people I'll get noticed." I found the speech perfectly relative to her intended message, even if it was a bit shaky. It was a spontaneous thing, not prepared, memorized, or written down. She took the opportunity given to her at that second and tried to do her best with it. In her interview with Serena (sorry, I can't spell her last name) on MTV's Peep show, Fiona readily admitted that she could have communicated it better. She didn't go up there with a "holier than thou" attitude plotting some big explosion to piss everyone off. Because of this one thing she's done, I don't believe it should mark her an "ineffective communicator" or "immature little brat". I think her songs prove that wrong ten fold. And I personally found nothing in the speech which automatically makes her an ungrateful person. I seriously doubt I will change my mind because I don't judge people over a single action they've taken in their lives. In 2 years of watching Fiona, I've seen that she's a spontaneous, emotionally heightened person. I wasn't very surprised by the speech because of that fact. One tidbit that makes everyone think she's pissed off is her tone. That is, in fact, the way she speaks sometimes. I have a bootleg where she sounds the same way when she's simply telling a story to the audience. Not everyone is in the same mind mold here. I know for a fact many people will sit here and write another letter disagreeing with me. That's fine. All I'm doing here is bringing in some things I've noticed or heard her say. And I'm willing to bet some of us won't change our minds.. and none of us, including Roger, are completely right, because this affects people in different ways. The way you look at her speech depends on the kind of person you are, not how old you are. And just because some of us may be short on years doesn't mean we're short on anything else. Don't treat us like we're stupid, please. That's all I'm going to say. lane* fionahaswings.com Apple Addicts Anonymous onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/apple-addicts ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 17:10:15 +0000 From: "Ethan Mitchell" Subject: RE: apple-tree-digest V1 #33 > Okay, sorry, I read a little more of the messages and realized that we're > all pretty much in agreement. Fine. Be yourself. We're not arguing about > that. The point, I think, is that it could have been said better. By being > obnoxious, she was disrespectful of me as a member of the audience. I suppose you know exactly what the best way Fi can communicate her inner thoughts is? *She wasn't up there to appease you*...it was the exact opposite. She was up there to appease herself, and that's what she did. And that might make her guilty of being impolite. But I would subtract ten points from her overall speech score for the rudeness, then I would add like 1000 for the reasoning behind her being rude. Like, someimtes you have to sacrifice some style to get the content heard. And exactly how many awards speeches are you talking about on mailing lists these days? On any...I'd be guessing that this is a big one. "It could have been said better." No, it could have been said more nicely, but the point would then have been lost along with all the other polite little awards speeches. Not that those are bad speeches, but *those* are the speeches that would have been inappropriate for her to give. > What, > I'm not smart enough to listen to what she says unless she pisses off a > bunch of people? Saying "Hey kids, be yourself" isn't good enough? Get > real -- she said what she said, and it didn't sound anything like her > "intended" message. "I didn't prepare a speech and I'm sorry, but I'm glad that I didn't, because I'm not going to do this like everybody else does it." Setting up what she's going to say...basically "get ready, this is going to be weird." "Um. Cause everybody that I should be thanking, I'm really sorry, but I have to use this time. See Maya Angelou said that we, we as human beings at our best can only create [co--], opportunities, and I'm gonna use this opportunity the way that I want to use it." What's she saying here is that instead of using the time like she's supposed to be using it, she's going ot break the rules and go with herself. Instead of appeasing all the people who've produced at the expense of her true thoughts, she's going to go with her true thoughts at the expense of the people. "So, what I want to say is...um...everybody out there that's watching, everybody that's watching this world, this world is bullshit," The world you're watching me in (the world of celebrities) is bullshit. "and you shouldn't model your life--wait a second--you shouldn't model your life about what you think that we think is cool and what we're wearing and what we're saying and everything. Go with yourself! Go with yourself!" Don't make celebrities out to be your one-stop shop for advice on life. Be your own person. "And there's just a few people that I want to say something to. I wanna say Mama, I love you, I'm so glad that we're becoming friends. Amber, I love you, you're my sister, you're my best friend. Andrew Slater, no one else could have produced this album, and no one else did. Um. And it's just stupid that I'm in this world, but you're all very cool to me, so thank you very much. And I'm sorry for all the people I didn't thank, but man, it's good, bye." Sounds very ungrateful. Especially at the end. Now, I'm just wondering: what part of "intended message" don't you understand? I think she made herself quite clear in the amount of words she used. And part of clarity is delivery. "Hey, kids, be yourself" would have been about as honest as not saying any of it at all...if you're talking, do you use a monotone voice, or do you express part of the meaning with inflection? > Maybe it doesn't make her an immature little brat. Maybe it just makes her > an ineffective communicator. I think that's very clear in that she writes extremely well, and there're a lot of us on this list who understood what she was saying. If you didn't get it, she's not the one with the problem. > Maybe she's just a ungrateful little... anyhow, Why, because she didn't say exactly what you wanted to hear and what all the people she should have been thanking wanted to hear? She is a person...I'm sure she's thanked all of her crew on numerous occasions...and she did rattle off a bunch of good wishes at the end. > this is a waste of time, and you guys will change your minds when you get > older - just mark my words. > > This is it. I mean it this time. No more. > > Roger OK, I find that downright ridiculous and insulting. Here I am, 19, explaining the speech for you almost line-by-line, because you quite obviously missed a lot of its meaning. Like Fiona says, it's not in the number of experiences you have, it's in how you learn from those experiences and the quality of them. That should be pretty obvious, I think. Ethan ------------------------------ End of apple-tree-digest V1 #35 *******************************