From: owner-angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org (angry-psychos-digest) To: angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org Subject: angry-psychos-digest V8 #154 Reply-To: angry-psychos@smoe.org Sender: owner-angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "angry-psychos-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. angry-psychos-digest Monday, July 14 2003 Volume 08 : Number 154 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: prostitution [LivTheMdns@aol.com] Advertising, Prostitution, and self-worth [Uhura Bisa Jones ] [none] ["DesertOpal" ] Re: alcohol, prostitution, backstage passes [D G ] Re: prostitution [Carey101C@aol.com] Re: [LivTheMdns@aol.com] Re: prostitution ["Reg" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 02:18:49 EDT From: LivTheMdns@aol.com Subject: Re: prostitution Selling is legal and fucking is legal, so why not selling fucking? I wasn't going to reply to this one to the list, but why not, everyone else has :) All joking aside, I think it should be (for the most part anyway) legal. The problem with making prostitution illegal is the same thing as making drugs illegal. When something becomes illegal, that means that someone has picked as the solution to the problem having the cops arrest people. Making burglery illegal is fine and making rape and murder illegal is fine, when any of those crimes occur, someone's been hurt. When you throw a rapist/thief/killer in prison, they've left behind victims. When you ban drugs or prostitution, you're saying that the cops should arrest people for getting high or being a john (which leaves no clear victims and is done with express permission of all involved). When you arrest a hooker or a dealer, you've left behind customers holding out money. Maybe the answer isn't arresting people, maybe the answer is to try and influence them as though they're a market (which they are). Discourage it by cutting the profits and make it less damaging through harm reduction measures. There will never be a drug law good enough to stop people from doing drugs, but a good drug law is one that makes for a safer society. Same can be said about prostitution. Just my 2 cents. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:57:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Uhura Bisa Jones Subject: Advertising, Prostitution, and self-worth Amen to that. On another note: This whole thing with prostitution being equated with self-worth...just because YOUR self-worth is affected negatively by whom you have sex with (how often, and for what currency..), doesn't mean OTHER people's is. Don't project your own emotional responses and reactions onto other people. For *you* the life of prostitution may mean a lack of choice, but that doesn't hold for everyone or other's who would be able to *make* that choice. Hence why p some people think it should be legalized: let people make the choice for themselves and keep the government OUT of the bedroom. (kitchen, back alley, wooded area, living room..whatever) *wink* Uhura On Sat, 12 Jul 2003, Mike Vaughn wrote: > > Ask me when I get out of advertising. > -MikeV > > > > > Question: Do you think that prostitution should be legalized in this country? > > > > xoxo Poe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 03:04:51 -0700 From: "DesertOpal" Subject: [none] you ban drugs or prostitution, you're saying that the cops should arrest people for getting high or being a john (which leaves no clear victims) that is not the truth. Getting high leaves victims, being a john leaves victims.....The driver, or the passenger, the wife, or the girlfriend. There are always victims of your choices, dont forget it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 03:08:17 -0700 From: "DesertOpal" Subject: [none] ...just because YOUR self-worth is affected negatively by whom you have sex with (how often, and for what currency..), doesn't mean OTHER people's is. hence the fact that I said, some of those women are not affected by it, so maybe if there were psycholocial exams first. LOL. But the majority of women ARE affected by it....mentally, emotionally, pysiologically....fact. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 01:18:33 -0700 (PDT) From: D G Subject: Re: alcohol, prostitution, backstage passes The general idea that people should be able to do whatever they want as long as they aren't hurting anyone else seems to be the national philosophy, not just for liberals but also conservatives. It is so much a part of our political mindset that it is taken for granted and woven into the fabric of any debate. When people debate about abortion, one side argues that restriciting abortion violates women's individual right to bodily sovereignty. The other side seeks to vindicate a fetus' individual right to life. The crux of the argument is whether abortion is hurting "someone else." Similarly, we naturally tend to frame debates about legalizing drugs or prostitution in terms of whether the activity is hurting anyone else. The question assumes that people are islands- that is is possible to do ANYTHING without affecting EVERYONE else. Alcohol/drugs are a perfect example- people think "it is an individual, personal choice to put a substance in your body- it doesn't hurt anyone else." But anyone who has been a son or daughter of one of the 20 million alcoholics in this country understands that it never happens in isolation- it effects generations of people, emotionally, psychologically, physically. Each of the 17,970 people who died last year from drunk drivers had mothers, brothers, children, and networks of people affected. Furthermore, everyone is socialized into a culture and alcohol is a part of that culture. Whether people drink, how people view drinking, the content of beer commercials on TV- it is all imprinted upon every single American from childhood and affects who we all are and how we live. Individually behaviors may seem completely isolated. But taken in the aggregate they effect EVERYONE, because we are all part of a community and a civilization. You may think that you could not possibly affect anybody else by having consenting sex behind closed doors. However, the manner in which people treat sex DOES effect everyone else. It determines the culture into which kids are socialized and how kids will view sex. It determines the expectations and mores we will be expected to follow when we go on dates or relate to each other. Of course you are free to form your own opinions and control your own behaviors but you are generally not free to completely remove yourself from the influence of your culture or the need to interact with that culture. I am not saying any of these things are necessarily for better or for worse, I am saying that it is foolish to argue "I am not affected by what others choose to do; I am against prostitution personally, but other consenting people have a right to do it because it doesn't involve anyone else." This denies or ignores our physical, spiritual, and cultural interconnectedness. You can't seperate yourself from the woman next door who was raped by a man who developed a hateful, inhuman view of women that was perpetuated by pornography and prostitution. You aren't isolated from the hopelessness and despair of women thrust into a life of drugs and prostitution. Yes, you can buy a house in an upscale neighborhood where you don't have to look at them, and you can lock your door at night, but they are still a part of your culture and who WE are as a people. It doesn't answer the question of whether prostitution should be legal. It is quite possible that regulating it in a way that makes it safer (mandatory AIDS testing and health services for the prostitutes, strictly enforced age minimums, regulation of those who supervise the prostitutes, prosecution of those who commit acts of violence against prostitutes), and use of the tax revenues to provide social services and HELP to the women who need it (counselling, education, addiction recovery programs, childcare, shelters, etc.), could do more good than harm. But JadeShamrock's excellent points about the harm of legalized prostitution are also persuasive. Either way, it is not enough just to point to "personal choice" and pretend that those choices do not affect us all. I am not saying that individual liberties should be tossed out the window, but the entire system has been skewed so far towards individualism that America resembles much less a democracy than a judicially run oligarchy (almost every major issue is ultimately decided not by a legislature but by a court, which has no interest in what is best for society and does not look beyond the question of individual rights). If Poe wants to auction her toenail clippings or anything else, I say good 4 her! She deserves a lot more reward than she has received, not only because she creates amazing, innovative music but also because she touches peoples' lives in a positive way (both through her music and through the kind way she treats her fans). I am sure whoever bought the pass does not feel cheated at all and will probably have an amazing time when Poe starts touring. my .04 cents SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 01:36:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Miki Proud Subject: Re: In that case extra-marital affairs, fast food, drinking, smoking, gambling, contact sports, and divorce should all be illegal. '1984' anyone? - --- DesertOpal wrote: > > you ban drugs or prostitution, you're saying that > the cops should arrest > people for getting high or being a john (which > leaves no clear victims) > > > > that is not the truth. Getting high leaves victims, > being a john leaves > victims.....The driver, or the passenger, the wife, > or the girlfriend. There > are always victims of your choices, dont forget it. ===== "Be who you are and say what you feel. Because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - --Dr. Suess __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 04:47:25 EDT From: Carey101C@aol.com Subject: Re: prostitution Am I really the first one here to point out that throughout HIStory a woman could cut her johns down to one sugar daddy, legally, through MARRIAGE? I'm Carey, hello hello! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 12:00:30 EDT From: LivTheMdns@aol.com Subject: Re: In a message dated 7/13/2003 12:01:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, DesertOpal@neo.rr.com writes: > you ban drugs or prostitution, you're saying that the cops should arrest > people for getting high or being a john (which leaves no clear victims) > > > > that is not the truth. Getting high leaves victims, being a john leaves > victims.....The driver, or the passenger, the wife, or the girlfriend. There > are always victims of your choices, dont forget it. > I never said that driving under the influence should be legal, I actually happen to think that there should be stronger deterants on that kind of activity. I'm just talking about someone of age deciding of their own free will to pay for sex or get stoned. If they drive it's a crime, if they neglect their kid, it's a crime. If they get stoned on a friday night and go to work monday morning like everyone else, then it shouldn't be a crime. Also, the wife or girlfriend isn't a victim of the prostitute, she's the victim of a cheating boyfriend/husband. If a guy is cheating on his wife with a prostitute, then it's the cheating that's wrong and not the hooking. The it's just as bad if the guy stay late at work shtupping his secretary. All this being said, I am opposed to both drugs and prostitution, being a customer of none of those. I just think that incarceration is a public bad, and that it should only be carried out when letting the person go free is even worse for the public. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 16:36:49 -0500 From: "Reg" Subject: Re: prostitution - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peace of Pie" To: "AP" ; Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 4:07 PM Subject: Re: > > In my book, prostitution falls into the pro-choice category. I believe in > the right to choose. I choose to smoke, I choose to drink caffeine, I choose > to get up and go to work everyday, and I choose to stay on this list. I > suppose if I felt the need to exchange sex for goods, well I'd like to know > I had the right to choose to do so. > > Now if we could just get those marijuana laws overturned ... we're even > facing a cigarette ban here, choosing is losing. Damnit. > > Julie ugh stupid smoking ban! can't they just let people live their lives the way they want to?! even if that includes prostitution, smoking, drinking, or doing drugs. i for one don't like paying for sex when i can get it for free. i don't do drugs and i occasionally smoke and drink. ok, i drink a lot more than occasionally =) but i would like the option to do any of that if i wanted to. who am i to choose what's right and wrong for someone else. i don't want someone telling me what to do so therefore i won't tell someone else what to do. - -reg > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 3:42 PM > > > > > > Question: Do you think that prostitution should be legalized in this > country? > > > > xoxo Poe ------------------------------ End of angry-psychos-digest V8 #154 ***********************************