From: owner-angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org (angry-psychos-digest) To: angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org Subject: angry-psychos-digest V7 #205 Reply-To: angry-psychos@smoe.org Sender: owner-angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "angry-psychos-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. angry-psychos-digest Tuesday, July 23 2002 Volume 07 : Number 205 Today's Subjects: ----------------- house of leaves [Ducky015@aol.com] Re: house of leaves ["mike brame" ] Super Digest Reply, etc, etc (npr) [Kevin Intoen ] NPR: What to do? ["Ed Hunsinger" ] Explosive Devices [SnugaKitn@aol.com] Re: Explosive Devices ["Reg" ] Re: Explosive Devices [SnugaKitn@aol.com] Re: Explosive Devices ["Reg" ] NPR: Kitties and Kiddies [tohaveaplan@att.net] Re: Explosive Devices [SnugaKitn@aol.com] NPR: patriotism forward [Sharonda220@aol.com] Re: NPR: patriotism forward [JennaBopo@aol.com] Re: NPR Kiddies & Kitties ["Melly" ] Re: NPR: patriotism forward ["Andrea E. Jackman" ] Re: NPR: patriotism forward ["Andrea E. Jackman" ] Re: NPR: Poe ring tones for Nokia [PURPLMOJO@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 01:50:15 EDT From: Ducky015@aol.com Subject: house of leaves ive been reading house of leaves, and i wasnt sure how to go about reading it so i read the zampano stuff and now im reading the johnny truant stuff. did anyone else have a better suggestion on how to read the book? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 23:18:04 -0700 From: "mike brame" Subject: Re: house of leaves ??? Maybe it's just me, but I read it straight through. You know, read a page, read the next page, repeat. Yes, the footnotes too. Seemed to work fine for me, although maybe I did it wrong since it didn't change my way of thinking or anything like that. I would say that there is no "right" way, whichever way works best for you. Rock on, RevMike >From: Ducky015@aol.com >To: angry-psychos@smoe.org >Subject: house of leaves >Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 01:50:15 EDT > > >ive been reading house of leaves, and i wasnt sure how to go about reading >it >so i read the zampano stuff and now im reading the johnny truant stuff. did >anyone else have a better suggestion on how to read the book? _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 05:13:48 -0400 From: Kevin Intoen Subject: Super Digest Reply, etc, etc (npr) Okay, one big reply here. Andrea: I'm not saying that there's NOT a link, my point is just that it doesn't NECESSARILY translate into violence towards humans, and that you can't say that he's going to hurt another person without some sort of psychiatric evaluation at the very least. If he is, then sure, lock him up in a psychiatric ward or something. But as a human, he deserves the benefit of the doubt. Pierce: I agree with the first part of what you said, showing a willingness to harm defenseless organisms. As for the second part, I disagree because I think that the act, rather than the motivation, should be punished. I personally don't see a problem with it, but it's a fairly reasonable law (unlike some others I could name) and so he should bear whatever legal consequences there are. But I don't think that a larger punishment should be imposed simply because he was "malicious". As for the pure logic vs. emotional response thing, I agree totally. I guess what I was trying to say, in a roundabout way, was that an emotional response is fine, but for christ's sake think things through before you do/say them. Tracie: Same thing I said to Andrea, who's to say he will? You can't treat a person like a criminal before a crime occurs. Well, of course you CAN, but it's goes against the ideal of American justice (and yes, I realize the ideal and the reality are two different things). Melissa: I don't want to constantly fight with you either. But I'm not going to sit here and listen to you get pissy with me just because I didn't word a letter carefully enough to avoid offending your delicate sensibilities. The first response was not meant to be 'abrasive', the second one was, due to your reply, which was certainly as whiny as you assumed I was calling your original post. It is not IMPOSSIBLE to make an assumption about your behavior; we all make assumptions and in this case I assumed certain things from the tone of your post. However. I did not state any of those assumptions, even though I was right about quite a few of them, as I found out later. You were the one who chose to interpret my words a certain way. For instance, if you'll go back and read my original reply, you'll see that I said that there were worse things in the world, and simply asked you what you were doing about any of them. Nowhere in there did it say anything about assuming you were doing nothing but whining about the kitten; you were the one who somehow inserted that in there. And yes, we do have two different opinions about the existence of animal rights. I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree on that. What I do take exception to is the assumption that it AUTOMATICALLY makes the guy a child molester, or abuser, or whatever you obviously think of him as. Joey/Mindy: Yes, the bonsaikitten.com site is not real -- it's all a joke. There's also one out there, I forget the url at the moment, that sells human flesh as a delicacy. KrodKnid: Ted Nugent is a badass motherfucker. I remember reading articles about him way back in the day in Rolling Stone and the like, and in ever other picture he'd have his shotgun. Bet you couldn't get away with that now :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:21:41 -0400 From: "Ed Hunsinger" Subject: NPR: What to do? *sigh* So I'm sitting at home all by myself dog/cat-sitting, bored to death. My friends have all left town thanks to college, so it's just me and the cats. The gf is off on vacation in Myrtle Beach, and I'm on hold waiting to move to Columbus, OH. So, what this horribly off topic email is about is a simple question. What the heck is there for me to do to entertain myself for the next week? Anyone out there in the Winston-Salem, NC area that wants to hang out? - ----- Ed Hunsinger edward@hunsinger.org http://ed.hunsinger.org/resume.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:32:23 EDT From: SnugaKitn@aol.com Subject: Explosive Devices I know we have quite a lot of parents on the list, and after all the 4th of July "near-death" stories, I think that this is definitely something you should all hear about. This weekend my best friend's little sister was babysitting for a close family friend. They have 4 small children, the eldest is 8 years old. The babysitter is 14. Early in the morning, she was feeding the kids breakfast and lit what she believed to be a candle, and from her later description, I probably would not have thought otherwise either and I am 24. It was half a stick of a dynamite-type explosive...they are not quite sure just yet what exactly it was. Some are speculating it may have been an M-100 type homemade firework. She realized it was not a candle when she lit it, and she desperately tried to put it out in the sink to save the kids. It went off before she could run. She is alive thankfully, the sink took the majority of the blast and caved in on itself. However, shrapnel ripped her left arm open to the bone, and left a hole in her chest. She also blew off 2 of her fingers and part of her hand on the right. She is going to have to undergo several very lengthy and painful operations and months of physical therapy...as well as having to adjust to not having 2 fingers, possibly a third as well. If you are a parent and you have any type of explosive devices in your house whether it is a bottle rocket, firecracker, or something more extensive... PLEASE get it the fuck OUT of your house. If a mature 14 year old girl can make this mistake, any child can. I have known this girl since she was 3 years old and she is practically family to me. Don't play around with your childrens' lives. The parents of these children are now possibly facing major jail time and losing all 4 of their children. This particular explosive could have blown all 5 of them to bits, and instead of visiting a very brave 14 year old in pain at the hospital....we could be going to 5 funerals. These things are NOT toys...not for children OR adults. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:12:02 -0500 From: "Reg" Subject: Re: Explosive Devices wow. i'm glad to hear that no lives were lost. hopefully, the girl can get past this horrible mishap. this is definately an example of how parents should not leave stuff like that laying around the house. sometimes weapons and fireworks are way too easily accesible to children. - -reg - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 9:32 AM Subject: Explosive Devices > > I know we have quite a lot of parents on the list, and after all the 4th of > July "near-death" stories, I think that this is definitely something you > should all hear about. > > This weekend my best friend's little sister was babysitting for a close > family friend. They have 4 small children, the eldest is 8 years old. The > babysitter is 14. Early in the morning, she was feeding the kids breakfast > and lit what she believed to be a candle, and from her later description, I > probably would not have thought otherwise either and I am 24. It was half a > stick of a dynamite-type explosive...they are not quite sure just yet what > exactly it was. Some are speculating it may have been an M-100 type homemade > firework. She realized it was not a candle when she lit it, and she > desperately tried to put it out in the sink to save the kids. It went off > before she could run. She is alive thankfully, the sink took the majority of > the blast and caved in on itself. However, shrapnel ripped her left arm open > to the bone, and left a hole in her chest. She also blew off 2 of her > fingers and part of her hand on the right. She is going to have to undergo > several very lengthy and painful operations and months of physical > therapy...as well as having to adjust to not having 2 fingers, possibly a > third as well. > If you are a parent and you have any type of explosive devices in your house > whether it is a bottle rocket, firecracker, or something more extensive... > PLEASE get it the fuck OUT of your house. If a mature 14 year old girl can > make this mistake, any child can. I have known this girl since she was 3 > years old and she is practically family to me. Don't play around with your > childrens' lives. The parents of these children are now possibly facing > major jail time and losing all 4 of their children. > This particular explosive could have blown all 5 of them to bits, and instead > of visiting a very brave 14 year old in pain at the hospital....we could be > going to 5 funerals. These things are NOT toys...not for children OR adults. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:23:16 EDT From: SnugaKitn@aol.com Subject: Re: Explosive Devices Frankly I do not see the need to have that shit in your house at ALL. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:38:18 -0500 From: "Reg" Subject: Re: Explosive Devices you mean the firework/explosive device? or any weapons in general. if it was a firework type thing, it could be understandable since 4th of july wasn't that far away. but a stick of dynamite? that's freakin' ridiculous. there's no way that should be available to a kid. even a 14 year old. now weapons on the other hand, are a whole different issue all together. while i do feel people have the right to protect their property, i do think guns are a bit harsh. i know when i get my own house, i won't have a gun simply because it can fall into my childrens hand. even if i put it in a shoebox on the top shelf of my closet, children are still gonna be curious and are still gonna try and get to it. but that's not to say i don't want anyone else to have a gun in their house. it's a free country, they can do whatever they want to protect themselves. that's why i love this country.... also, how could she mistake it for a candle?... - -reg - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 11:23 AM Subject: Re: Explosive Devices > > Frankly I do not see the need to have that shit in your house at ALL. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:06:24 +0000 From: tohaveaplan@att.net Subject: NPR: Kitties and Kiddies I just wanted to write and say that I appreciate the post of the Clay County Prosecutor's information. Not only was this story terribly sad but it came on the heels of the story about the 5-y-o kid abducted and found a copule days later in California. I personally think anyone who has the time or energy to write a letter about something as small as a kitten, as tragic as a child, or as complex and disconcerting as saving the planet or feeding the world, should get out their pens and stationary (or soap box) and express themselves to their heart's content. There is certainly no shortage of causes in the world and I understand when people make statements like "why don't you spend you time on something more important." The amount of problems in this world can truly become overwhelming. But if we can make an example out of people that BBQ (or in TX & ME microwave) kitties perhaps that grain or respect learned for a small creature will prevent other kiddy stories from becoming a reality. In closing, I would just like to ask others out there if they think there should be some concerted effort out there to teach respect for others? I don't know if this should be led by government created public service announcements (ala "I am an American" commercials); by rockers who rave against violence or for humanity (think Farm aid); or by a grassroots organization with some really clever bumper stickers. But is anyone else really concerned about our society's degradation and thinking something has to be done? Hence, I step down from my own soapbox. ABC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:41:38 EDT From: SnugaKitn@aol.com Subject: Re: Explosive Devices First of all, they are not sure whether it was a stick of dynamite or a homemade M-100 firework just yet. They are still investigating. Secondly, BOTH of these are illegal to own without a permit. The steel kitchen sink which took the brunt of the blast completely caved in on itself and it took out the entire counter. Had she been actually holding the device when it went off, she would have been blown to bits. The way it was described to me by Dawn (the victim) was a large column-like "candle" with wax all around. She said she had not reason to suspect it was anything but a candle. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:13:17 EDT From: Sharonda220@aol.com Subject: NPR: patriotism forward After hearing that the state of Florida changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face covered, I believe this is even more appropriate. Read on, please! This is an editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa newspaper. He did quite a job; didn't he? IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost entirely comprised of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of America being a multi- cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language! "In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture. If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE. If you agree -- pass this along; if you don't agree -- I don't want to hear about it. AMEN ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:44:25 -0400 From: JennaBopo@aol.com Subject: Re: NPR: patriotism forward wow... whereas he seemed to start off with some valid points, I'd say this was way too much of an emotion-based essay to take seriously. I mean, I've lived in this country my whole life, as have my parents, and I find the mention of God in regards to my country offensive, so I guess I should do as this guy suggests and use my right to leave and... go back to where I... came from? Glad to know I always understood what my country was all about... closed-mindedness. lol j ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:42:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Melly" Subject: Re: NPR Kiddies & Kitties I would just like to make a small comment on this topic. =0D =0D I live in Portland, Oregon, and this past week they had what is called=20 Rock-n-Roll Camp for Girls". It is a non-profit camp, they run on donati= ons this was the 2nd year it was put on. I don't know a lot of details but = the short version is: a week-long learning experience for girls ages 8-18, teaching an instrument or singing, they also learned self defense, and we= re treated to many concerts by female bands local and distant. =0D =0D I took my four year old daughter to the finale performance this last Saturday, and it was the most amazing thing I've ever experienced. Littl= e tiny girls, holding guitars bigger than they are, singing into the microphone about boys being mean on the playground "I think he likes me", songs they wrote both music and lyrics for...it gives me goosebumps again just thinking about it. I would encourage every other town or city in th= e country to do something like this. Not only did the girls walk away with= an enhanced knowledge of music, they also walked away with greater self-este= em.=0D =0D This can only lead to bigger and better things for our youth.=0D =0D Thanks for listening,=0D POE love,=0D ~Melly =0D =0D for more information go to www.girlsrockcamp.org [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/gif] [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type Image/jpeg] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:53:39 -0400 From: "Andrea E. Jackman" Subject: Re: NPR: patriotism forward i second that emotion . . . the author's main gripe with the GOD thing is badly directed. all that forefather talk is always incongruous with the folks who floated over. We The People started out seeking religious freedom, and as it was then --- so it is now, we still require a place where we can allow our own version of God to rule. Let's not forget we told the Native Americans to shove off if they didn't like it, those poor unsuspecting heathens readily equipped with their own multitude of spirits and gods --- and a good navigational lay of the land as well as how to harvest it. But let's move onto those forefathers . . . A handful of occasionally wise, (some more than others) privileged white men decided to figure on a way we could negotiate with the people and create the law of land WITHOUT having too much God around. So they all met in port and dock taverns and got sloshed and drew up some documents and salt & pepper spiced it with God to make it palatable to the commoners. And i know this to be historical fact because not only do i live near DC, i live in the original national Capital, Annapolis, Maryland, where all the fine white brothers of our country met and discussed these things, in a major sailing port town. The tavern still serves beer and brisket and crabcakes right where Franklin and Jefferson and the like met. Take the guided tour. And if you read these documents ... the main jive is SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. Our hell-bent author makes it a point to say that the Christian motto "In God We Trust" has been around forever, and is not attached to any "wing." Well actually it IS. Dwight D. Eisenhower, captain right wing himself, pursued the moderate policies of what he called, "Modern Republicanism," Responding to increasing public demand, as a response to communism at the height of the Cold War with Russia in 1954, Congress did pass legislation requiring the use of the phrase "In God We Trust" on all coins which had previously borne the motto. President Roosevelt signed the new law of May 18, 1908, and "In God We Trust" was restored to the coins. The law stated:That the motto "In God We Trust," heretofore inscribed on certain denominations of the gold and silver coins of the United States of America, shall hereafter be inscribed upon all such gold and silver coins of said denominations as heretofore. This, perhaps the most disastrous blow to American unity was delivered by Congress in 1956, when it "retired" our national motto, E Pluribus Unum, and replaced it with theology: "In God We Trust." E Pluribus Unum, which means "Out Of Many, One," had been suggested by Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. It can be traced to the Epistles of Horace, and was intended to signify the union of the original 13 Colonies. Once again, completely at odds with the forefathers. Over time, E Pluribus Unum came to represent the most fundamental ideal of America: that a diverse people living on a vast continent could put aside their differences and work together So once again kiddies, we could all do with a history lesson before we start spouting off wildly over-charged sentiments and telling our own people to fuck right off again, to get down with God or get gone. And if you want to read some 1950's literature (propaganda) put out at that time i encourage you to check out http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/home.html That'll tell you more about this culture than our author suggests. Now to end my tirade, i appreciate anyone who had the kindness to read this far . . . i am not particularly fond of any nationalism or patriotism, i find Americana is household decor to be nauseating. Cultural reflection of our Stars and Stripes or no. I also am revolted by many things that go on in the name of God not only here, but anywhere. Why do you think we're at war now? Does anyone know we are currently accused of being a godless society by our attackers, and maybe we should realize that in some respects we ARE becoming increasingly so. i would like anyone who wants to research the opposing, yet inclusive view at http://secular.ws/pledge/ . And DO check out their RESOURCES page for some exercises in open-mindedness. Though this site has wonderful info, it also has regretfully, some horrible MIDIs which you can turn down your volume at. thanks for listening ... ///Andrea littleREDelf Info gleaned from : http://www.nlf.net/in_god_we_trust.htm#CONTROVERSY%20OVER%20THE%20MOTTO'S%20USE - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 2:44 PM Subject: Re: NPR: patriotism forward wow... whereas he seemed to start off with some valid points, I'd say this was way too much of an emotion-based essay to take seriously. I mean, I've lived in this country my whole life, as have my parents, and I find the mention of God in regards to my country offensive, so I guess I should do as this guy suggests and use my right to leave and... go back to where I... came from? Glad to know I always understood what my country was all about... closed-mindedness. lol j ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:12:20 -0700 From: "~ Melly ~" Subject: Re: NPR Kiddies & Kitties Wow, sorry that email I sent came out all scripted. I apologize for the difficulty in reading it. Now I know not to send anything to the list from my Incredimail account. My sincerest apologies, ~Melly Here it is again, for those of you who just decided to delete instead of try to read it... I live in Portland, Oregon, and this past week they had what is called "Rock-n-Roll Camp for Girls". It is a non-profit camp, they run on donations, this was the 2nd year it was put on. I don't know a lot of details but the short version is: a week-long learning experience for girls ages 8-18, teaching an instrument or singing, they also learned self defense, and were treated to many concerts by female bands local and distant. I took my four year old daughter to the finale performance this last Saturday, and it was the most amazing thing I've ever experienced. Little tiny girls, holding guitars bigger than they are, singing into the microphone about boys being mean on the playground "I think he likes me", songs they wrote both music and lyrics for...it gives me goosebumps again just thinking about it. I would encourage every other town or city in the country to do something like this. Not only did the girls walk away with an enhanced knowledge of music, they also walked away with greater self-esteem. This can only lead to bigger and better things for our youth. Thanks for listening, POE love, ~Melly for more information go to www.girlsrockcamp.org _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:00:01 -0400 From: "Andrea E. Jackman" Subject: Re: NPR: patriotism forward Thank you reg, more than anything, i appreciate you telling me so, despite your not being in complete accordance. it takes a great effort to say "hey that sounds reasonable enough in someone's world, maybe not in mine, but i can see where you reside." After all, one must be intimately familiar with, be able understand both sides for any sort of progressive debate/argument to go on. i try not to argue, just point out inconsistencies and perhaps end with just a smidge of my own sentiment. i never try to get too heavy. and i NEVER discuss politics OR religion with strangers, especially at dinner, never in public, and i try to avoid message boards with it so as to NOT stir up a flame war. it's bad form, and often, the other person REALLY does NOT want to hear what you have to say. This thread being particularly dangerous, as the two topics of religion and politics are so deeply woven, often interchangeable in America both politically and historically. and as a small after thought, some Mark Twain who i am related to by marriage in my tree: Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you lease. --Mark Twain Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. --Mark Twain Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human oul. --Mark Twain ///Andrea littleREDelf - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Reg" To: "Andrea E. Jackman" Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 4:01 PM Subject: Re: NPR: patriotism forward very well put andrea. while i may not agree totally with you, i do appreciate the effort and knowledge you put into your reply. way to go. - -reg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:16:28 +0000 From: BifNakedFan@attbi.com Subject: You rock Andrea I like the way you think... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:25:50 -0400 From: "crack head" Subject: NPR: Poe ring tones for Nokia OK... I know this has been discussed at great length on this list, but I always thought, "Pah, I'm never getting a cellphone... I don't need to buy into that craze... I'll just delete this message!" But now, I have actually bought into the cellphone craze, and I have a Nokia phone and would LOVE to download the Poe ring tone, so... if anyone isn't too upset with having to explain how to do it, AGAIN, I'd greatly appreciate it! Thanks, Erin _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:36:57 EDT From: PURPLMOJO@aol.com Subject: Re: NPR: Poe ring tones for Nokia In regards to this question I'd like to input my own question and know if anyone has found a site other than at&t that has poe ring tones. You have to have at&t cell service in order to d/l their ring tones. One trick I was thinking is if I found someone with at&t service maybe they could download the ringtone to my phone for me? I don't know if this would work, cause I don't know if it asks you for the cell # to download to and if it does if it will accept anything other than the cell # with at&t service.. thanks ------------------------------ End of angry-psychos-digest V7 #205 ***********************************