From: owner-angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org (angry-psychos-digest) To: angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org Subject: angry-psychos-digest V6 #456 Reply-To: angry-psychos@smoe.org Sender: owner-angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "angry-psychos-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. angry-psychos-digest Thursday, October 11 2001 Volume 06 : Number 456 Today's Subjects: ----------------- NPR: Terrorism ["Carl" ] Re: NPR Scorpios APS - age/sign [Peaceofpiedesign@aol.com] RE: NPR Scorpios APS [Jennifer Cook ] NPR NPR NPR NPR peaceful solution and the recent arguments on the board [] Re: NPR 'Tis the season.... ["jayson g" ] NPR - Lamb ["jayson g" ] RE: NPR - Lamb ["Jorrit Harssema" ] Re: NPR A Peaceful Solution. ["John A. Bell" ] Re: NPR A clear head and a cold heart... ["John A. Bell" ] ReNPR Tinfoil Dan [Spidersrcute2@aol.com] Re: NPR - Lamb [BUDave18@aol.com] Poe news from p-o-e.com [Dan98908@aol.com] Re: ReNPR Tinfoil Dan [JaunasAddiccion@aol.com] Re: the SEXIEST SONG EVER!!! [LadyMsThang@aol.c] teste [AT ] PR peace related pt Deux [AT ] Re: NPR Scorpio AP's ["The Lauren" ] part Trois [AT ] NPR I dont know the French word for 4 [AT ] PR peace related Part ONE [AT ] Fw: Fw:NPR Our man in Afghanistan...Part 1 ["Brian Brantley" Subject: NPR: Terrorism If you'd all listen to this important terrorist message: I will now dismiss the children for today. How many pants DO I have? NONE! NO PANTS! God! Look at the thorax on *THAT* guy! HE IS SOOOO HOT, but those monkeys are dangerous, if you get the greebert... How about England today? HAPPY! Landlegriddlepoking going on over there in France though. How dare Subway only give me $6.99 for 2 foot longs ONLY on Sundays? BASTARDS Anthrax wrote questionable music in the 80's. Nothing to be THAT afraid of though. Someone pass the taco... Can we please talk about Poe now? PS: Miki, I'm still an asshole for forgetting about your lighter. It's coming I swear! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:42:43 EDT From: Peaceofpiedesign@aol.com Subject: Re: NPR Scorpios APS - age/sign In a message dated 10/10/01 9:56:44 PM Central Daylight Time, UnbrokenVixen@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 10/10/2001 6:57:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > JaunasAddiccion@aol.com writes: > > > > wow...i'm starting to feel like an old man, everyone's turning 20 and 21 > > this year, well i'm gonna be 23 and i'm damned noncommittal about it! > > ---tinfoil dan > > You aren't alone Dan. :) I'm gonna be 23 this year too. I can't believe > it... 21 was great, but 23 seems really traumatic, lol. > > ~alexandra > After 25, you have to really think when someone asks how old you are ... I have to do the mental math. By the way ... GEMINI'S RULE!!! JP ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:53:24 -0500 From: Jennifer Cook Subject: RE: NPR Scorpios APS Hey there! I just turned 25! But then again, I'm getting better with age, so I look forward to each passing year!!! Let's see, I was the chubby, goofy kid in High School. By 20, I was the cute, charming, not so chubby girl. Now at 25, I'm told I'm beautiful and sexy (well, that's by my boyfriend, so he may be biased! :-) ). Damn, I can't wait for 50 - I could be the first Grandma to appear in Playboy!!! HA!!! - -----Original Message----- From: Miharu Nakatani [mailto:miharu@shoujorobot.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 6:41 PM To: angry-psychos@smoe.org Subject: Re: NPR Scorpios APS At 06:55 PM 10/10/2001 -0400, you wrote: >wow...i'm starting to feel like an old man, everyone's turning 20 and 21 >this year, well i'm gonna be 23 and i'm damned noncommittal about it! >---tinfoil dan hahaha.. don't feel bad about it.. i'm turning 23 soon as well. god knows it's an inappropriate number for me.. i'm still a kid. - -miharu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:28:22 -0400 From: Michael Anderson Subject: NPR NPR NPR NPR peaceful solution and the recent arguments on the board Ian, I think the whole part of being a freedom loving American is loving the fact that people can say when they disagree, even when we know they are wrong. I am part of the 94% of Americans who support the attack on Afghanistan, but I am very close to being on the side that doesn't THE PUNCH THE PEACE PROTESTERS IN THE NOSE ANALOGY IS THE WORST ANALOGY I HAVE EVER HEARD. What the United States is doing is more akin to being ticked off at the person who punched us but not being able to reach them so instead punching their friends, parents and siblings until we can reach the person that punched us. >7: the Norhtern Alliance struck the taliban at the same time that the first bombing raids commenced. >I've heard nothing about what became of that. WHAT? what news source do you use. Try NPR radio coverage. It is all over the place there ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:49:38 -0500 From: "jayson g" Subject: Re: NPR 'Tis the season.... Any local YMCA... - -Jayson - ------------------------------------ Teenage gifts are always in high demand. People would much >prefer to give to a small child. Some great ideas are gift cards, gift >certificates for movies or cd's .. make up .. body spray, bubble bath etc. >There are many organizations out there.. your local church, United Way, The >Salvation Army , Toys For Tots , your local food bank. Most of these >organizations work together in a combined effort to reach more people. > >Just something to think about.... > >~jez _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:58:13 -0500 From: "jayson g" Subject: NPR - Lamb Whatever happened to Lamb? They were awesome. They almost gave Portishead a run for their money for the "most-wicked-to-listen-to-on-drugs" sound. If anybody knows, let me know... >From: "Enzo Molinari" >To: angry-psychos@smoe.org >Subject: Re: NPR: Massive Attack Fans... DVD of Videos is coming!!! >Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:15:57 -0400 > > >Hot damn!!! I absolutely can't wait for this one....now if only Portishead, >Tricky, Lamb, Luscious Jackson, Liz Phair.....etc etc would see great DVD >releases... > >can't wait, >Kung-Gene > >----Original Message Follows---- >From: LiveThruThisVow@aol.com >To: angry-psychos@smoe.org >Subject: NPR: Massive Attack Fans... DVD of Videos is coming!!! >Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:13:13 EDT > > >In a message dated 10/9/01 3:11:57 AM Central Daylight Time, >massiveattackgroup@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > The following is from NME.com > > > > Massive Attack - Compile up! > > MASSIVE COMPILATION! > > > > MASSIVE ATTACK are set to release a compilation of 11 of their videos > > on a career spanning DVD on November 5. > > > > It is the first time the videos will be commercially available on one > > body of work. All videos are full length, director's cuts, rarely see > > in their entirety. 'Angel' has never been seen by the viewing public. > > > > Packaging for the DVD will be a simple, clear plastic cover. Frontman > > 3D explained the thinking behind the presentation. "I wanted to > > undesign it rather than design it, the reason being that this is a > > retrospective work - it's a collection of videos from the last three > > albums and I felt that no one piece of artwork could summarise the > > work that we've done," he said. "So I decided to minimise it and take > > away all the packaging so that it almost looks like data. This is in > > keeping with the feel of the DVD generally. I didn't want to do loads > > of extras; I just wanted to keep it simple on every level. But if > > anyone is really inclined, they can go to the website and download > > their own artwork.' > > > > The DVD will feature two web-links, one to a microsite containing > > exclusive artwork and images from which users can choose and download > > their own cover images; the second link is to >Massive Attack 's > > website. All royalties from the DVD will go to the Red Cross. > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:09:21 +0200 From: "Jorrit Harssema" Subject: RE: NPR - Lamb > Whatever happened to Lamb? They were awesome. They almost gave > Portishead A few weeks ago, they appeared on the latest release "Cafe del Mar" cd-series, with a new song, named "Gabriel". So, they are still alive, and I really hope they will release a new album soon. Jorrit ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:00:57 -0400 From: "John A. Bell" Subject: Re: NPR A Peaceful Solution. > more and more about dependence on other countries. The Taliban is not self > sufficient to fight a war as far as I know. (I could be wrong, correct me on > this one if you can back it up) So, as they continue to crash their They are self-sufficient now; all of the weapons they have they took through assaults and through war. > for defense. I believe when someone threatens you, you are validated in > reacting defensively. If I felt someone was threatening myself or the > people I care about, I would defend myself. this would not be "cruising > around looking for them so I could kick their ass" but rather avoiding > contact with the person, protecting myself with allies when that person was > around, and taking ophysical action necessary to avoid harm to my "side" but > not in turn causing harm to the other "side" I think the special ops stuff > of destroying air bases, camps, etc. proven to be military based only is But what if they didn't just threaten you? What if they attacked you and your family? The Taliban didn't threaten us. They attacked us through bin Laden. > fought. And at times I believe that this is the war that's being fought. > However at other times, and in viewing the general public, it seems like > it's more of a war against the Taliban people. We shouldn't hate these It IS a war against the Taliban "people", The Taliban "people" are a terrorist regime who is occupying a country that doesn't want them. They're not a "public". The Afghan people, whom the Taliban are starving and arresting and killing and torturing are the "public". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:02:24 -0400 From: "John A. Bell" Subject: Re: NPR A clear head and a cold heart... NATO wasn't invoked for the Locherbie incident, as far as I recall. We did almost kill him... that was the point. ----- Original Message ----- From: KrodKnid@aol.com To: jbell126@nac.net ; forsaken26@yahoo.com ; angry-psychos@smoe.org Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 3:52 PM Subject: Re: NPR A clear head and a cold heart... In a message dated 10/10/2001 11:21:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jbell126@nac.net writes: I suppose you were aginst Reagan's bombing of Khaddafi when he even MENTIONED terrorizing the US... funny how he never did anything after that... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I thought that bombing was in retaliation for Locherbie, Scotland. We almost killed Qaddafi...got one of his sons. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:03:56 -0400 From: "John A. Bell" Subject: Re: NPR A clear head...... I'm so glad to see US citizens in support of our country. (Apologies if you're NOT a US citizen...) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:34 PM Subject: Re: NPR A clear head...... > > In a message dated 10/10/2001 4:16:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > onagh@yahoo.com writes: > > > > Then that puts us right back at square one, and the > > questions unanswered: > > > > how many times do you allow a person to give you a > > black eye, to punch you in the mouth, before you reach > > out and hit back? Sure, violence is not the answer, > > but how do you protect yourself from getting beaten up > > without using violence? > > > > do you just allow it to keep happening? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Oh, I am not arguing against the validity of attacking the Taliban at > all...the quicker we deal with them the better. I am just aware that this is > the US Government we are talking about here, and thus there are going to be > tons of bullshit and mercenary hidden agendas and manipulations of public > perception of what they are up to...not only that, this is the Bush clan at > the helm. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:38:15 EDT From: Spidersrcute2@aol.com Subject: ReNPR Tinfoil Dan Aha, you shouldn't feel bad about turning 23. It's all the same after 21, well, except for the 25th, when car insurance rates go down... I'm 26, and still feel like I'm barely 21 most of the time.... I don't think you age in spirit after you turn 21, the intake of alcohol must preserve us.... Anyways, I'm off to go lick some 9 volts, if I can find them... Tracie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:25:38 EDT From: BUDave18@aol.com Subject: Re: NPR - Lamb In a message dated 10/11/01 11:36:04 PM, Jorrit@poe.org writes: << So, they are still alive, and I really hope they will release a new album soon. >> The new album will be out quite soon! Can't wait till they tour again! They're AMAZING live! peace, seb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:19:51 EDT From: Dan98908@aol.com Subject: Poe news from p-o-e.com Found this posted yesterday afternoon, thought it was helpful information... Since 911 a great deal has changed and there is a lot of uncertainty ahead of us. Poe is home, using this time to organise and plan for the future.There are no appearances planned for the moment, but tour details are being worked on and will be announced soon.... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - --------------------------------------------------------------- From a different source... It is anticipated that we should have some specific dates and times before the weekend is over, perhaps as early as today! We are reassured by this source, who I trust completely, that we will know as soon as the dates are confirmed and that is within the next day or so. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:21:59 EDT From: JaunasAddiccion@aol.com Subject: Re: ReNPR Tinfoil Dan spiderrcute2 wrote: >>I'm off to go lick some 9 volts, if I can find them... I tried this once, it wasn't very fun for me, i mean, it may have been due somewhat to the fact that i was chewing tinfoil at the same time, but the doctor didn't say anything about the tinfoil, she just said not to lick any more 9-volt batteries. She must not know how difficult it is to just up and quit, cold turkey. - --tinfoil dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:35:58 EDT From: LadyMsThang@aol.com Subject: Re: the SEXIEST SONG EVER!!! Sugar Water and Artichoke - Cibo Motto And there's a few Mazzy Star songs that i find good as well. I can not remember exactly what the names are but...one is in the movie Stealing Beauty and the other is the movie Foxfire that's also on her So Tonight I Might See CD. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:42:35 -0700 From: AT Subject: teste ya ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:10:38 -0700 From: AT Subject: PR peace related pt Deux With this disclaimer in place, I can begin my typical A.T.Rant)..... NATIONALISM is NOT PATRIOTISM. Do NOT confuse the two.I myself am prouldly displaying an 'American' flag on my front porch. Funny thing is tho, there arent any stars in the blue field tho. In their place are various corporate logos such as McDonalds and Playboy and CBS IBM ABC ad nauseum...You know, the 'people' who our government represents...they certainly do not represent any of you who read this.In fact , they only want to incarcerate you or take as much money from you as they can without bleeding you to death. Mr Laden , who some of you know as Goldstein from the book 1984, used to be our friend. Seems lkie Saddam Hussein was at one point too. Just like Central American cocaine dealers were too when we needed an off the books way to funnel arms and money down there. Does anybody remember Ollie? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:13:42 +0000 From: "The Lauren" Subject: Re: NPR Scorpio AP's Hey there- Nov. 15 I will turn 19!Lauren - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:12:12 -0700 From: AT Subject: part Trois Allright I have bored or angered enough or all of my psycho brethern now.You want the most peaceful solution? Stop training foriegn governments' police in the most modern cattle-prod procedures. Stop sending 4 billion a year to Israel. Stop being the worlds policeman. Stop exporting arms for profit.Simple as that. If YOU were a 5 year old kid on the playground and a gang of fourteen year olds kicked you off the merry - go - round what recourse do you have other than poking a hole in their bicycle tires?That , in essence is terrorism on a vastly reduced scale. Most important to me this morning, stop right now from the urge to flame me ,please.As anyone who knows me certainly thought I was dead by now because it took me so long to write on this subject, I assure you I am alive and somewhat well. I waited exactly one lunar month because, well, it just seemed appropriate. I wont change my way of thinking.Those who think I should should open their eyes and most importantly stop watching network (State-controlled) television for their source of news. I dont need somber music and properly intoned sentimentalism from Tom Brokaw to know the magnitude of what happened 4 weeks ago today. At this moment ,I am listening to your president say there should be no protest...jeeshus H. Christo. Just as in NASDAQ stocks,when the crowd has a consensus,it must be wrong. Dont you love those file photos of those disgusting smiling bad toothed bearded ugly ass flies around them Arabs holding Chinese made weapons?Can you say bald-faced propaganda as fast as you can put a flag on your car?You try spending three years in an American prison and lets see how YOU think.December 25th is only a day that is between the 24th and the 26th. As the kid in the South Park movie said, land of the free indeed.Love that LOGO and THEME MUSIC on teevee..nothing more sickening than seeing George Bushes approval rating soar.Ramble ramble. Like I said before this all happened, we need stronger knife control legislation. There are too many knives out there. Now you all can see I was right.I was right about the stock market too wasnt I?Soon enough we will need internal passports to visit our relatives in the next city. Governments are in the Control and Opression business, plain and simple.Your government too.Call me un American if you must. I am anything but. How many people do you know who carry a copy of the Bill of Rights in their wallet?The occupation government in Washington is NOT American. It is a One World government that does NOT have YOUR intereset in mind. Want to change things? Circulate a petition. Write your congressman. Yeah right, be sure to enclose a suitcase of hundred dollar bills .I would offer the other way to get the attention of elected officials in this letter too, but at this particular time , I would fear indictment for Sedition. Freedom of speech shall not be abridged,yeah right. A lone Palestinian straps a few sticks of dynamite to himself ,surrounds it with nails and blows up a bus full of Tel Aviv residents. Next day there are airstrikes in southern Lebanon.Next week a bomb goes off in a Tel Aviv department store.More air raids ensue.Do you see where this is going?Really, think about it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:14:46 -0700 From: AT Subject: NPR I dont know the French word for 4 And the LAPD apparently dosent like people born in France either In closing Im reprinting a poem whom my good friend Amish Stripper Spice wrote a couple years back in response to an earlier go-round the U.S. government had with a guy named Bin Laden.Is this Bin Laden the same guy?I have substituted the phrases 'Bush" and "World Trade center" for the old words "Clinton " and "Oklahoma City" "Collateral Damage" By Amish Stripper Spice Wag the puppy,wag the dog Snuff em out with DX fog Trash their buildings kill their spouses kill their kids smash their houses blame some nameless Arab fuck You media mis-lead hockey puck!! Put the blame on our East coast The state Virginia there can boast The CIA so evil cold Well I for one can be so bold To put the blame on US hands We're the ones who sell to lands Weapons,nerve gas,totrure stuff Now some Arabs have said "enough" We support all evil men If we can call them "freedoms friend" But freedom aint what this concerns Its how much moolah Lockheed earns And kids mean NOT to Bushes soul Just let him please have better polls! *its sing a long time now* To the tune of My country tis of thee Thats how it used to be-when men were truly free Not any more. First came their pre-planned wars money panics and gore to further up their score and they still want more An international scheme the Power elite's dream a world as one A world they a-lone rule the thought just makes them drool the people bridled mules- to give their sons. Now you might ridicule these ravings of a fool but soon youll see. Youll see our leaders gall youll see their martial law youll see your country fall to the surprise of all But those who knew that they would rule the world one day as they had planned and when theyve got it all the nations great and small theyll build an ugly wall around us all. They will call the dead women and children "Collateral Damage" What did they call the women and children in the World Trade Center???? October Nine , Two Thousand One, Angry Terry,Patriot. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:18:14 -0700 From: AT Subject: PR peace related Part ONE Ive tried since Tuesday to send this to no avail..thanks JK for the technical advice,and I thought I was being muffled...Also thanks to the LAPD for their professionalism yesterday for not beating my brains in while unconstitutionally searching me and my car.Guess I shouldnt have a black girlfriend. 28 days.One lunar month.AT in his old age has learned patience.Tuesday.The most boring tropical season sine I started chasing hurricanes. I myself lost personally in last months fun and games. While most who think of the financial markets in New York end at the New York Stock Exchange , in fact there are several other market places there besides the AMEX and NASDAQ. I am referring to the new york Mercantile exchange (NYMEX) and the Commodity Exchange,inc (COMEX) not to mention the Coffe Sugar Cocoa exchange (CSCE) , and the Cotton exchange. What do all these places have in common? They were all located in the WTC. I worked in the commodity brokerage biz for a dozen years well before the full computerization of the world that has occured in the last decade. We used archaic means of order placement like telephones and hand signals to buy gold or orange juice.When YOU wanted to buy A December Silver call option I had to call new york and tell someone in person to go buy it for you.Many people I have personally known ,even tho it was work, were lost in the rubble. Not one, not three, many. ...cont ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:23:19 -0400 From: "Brian Brantley" Subject: Fw: Fw:NPR Our man in Afghanistan...Part 1 I got this from a Marine buddy of mine. It is VERY long but also very insightful. I will be sending it in three parts. Read with an open mind......... Apparently Mr. Kidd is a member of the West Point class of 1986, some of his very shrewd comments follow. FYI, Jim *** Richard Kidd, F-4, 86 _____________ Dear Classmates: Many of you are probably not aware that I was one of the last American citizens to have spent a great deal of time in Afghanistan. I was first there in 1993 providing relief and assistance to refugees along the Tajik border and in this capacity have traveled all along the border region between the two countries. In 1998 and 1999 I was the Deputy Program Manager for the UN's mine action program in Afghanistan. This program is the largest civilian employer in the country with over 5,000 persons clearing mines and UXO. In this later capacity, I was somewhat ironically engaged in a "Holy War" as decreed by the Taliban, against the evil of landmines, and by a special proclamation of Mullah Omar, all those who might have died in this effort were considered to "martyrs" even an "infidel" like myself. The mine action program is the most respected relief effort in the country and because of this I had the opportunity to travel extensively, without too much interference or restriction. I still have extensive contacts in the area and among the Afghan community and read a great deal on the subject. I had wanted to write earlier and share some of my perspectives, but quite frankly I have been a bit too popular in DC this past week and have not had time. Dr. Tony Kern's comments were excellent and I would like to use them as a basis for sharing some observations. First, he is absolutely correct. This war is about will, resolve and character. I want to touch on that later, but first I want to share some comments about our "enemy." Our enemy is not the people of Afghanistan. The country is devastated beyond what most of us can imagine. The vast majority of the people live day-to-day, hand to mouth in abject conditions of poverty, misery and deprivation. Less than 30% of the men are literate, the women even less. The country is exhausted, and desperately wants something like peace. They know very little of the world at large, and have no access to information or knowledge that would counter what they are being told by the Taliban. They have nothing left, nothing that is except for their pride. Who is our enemy? Well, our enemy is a group of non-Afghans, often referred to by the Afghans as "Arabs" and a fanatical group of religious leaders and their military cohort, the Taliban. The non-Afghan contingent came from all over the Islamic world to fight in the war against the Russians. Many came using a covert network created with assistance by our own government. OBL (as Osama bin Laden was referred to by us in the country at the time) restored this network to bring in more fighters, this time to support the Taliban in their civil war against the former Mujehdeen. Over time this military support along with financial support has allowed OBL and his "Arabs" to co-opt significant government activities and leaders. OBL is the "inspector general" of Taliban armed forces, his bodyguards protect senior Talib leaders and he has built a system of deep bunkers for the Taliban, which were designed to withstand cruise missile strikes (uhm, where did he learn to do that?). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:25:05 -0400 From: "Brian Brantley" Subject: Fw: Fw:NPR Our man in Afghanistan...Part 2 Continued...... His forces basically rule the southern city of Kandahar. This high-profile presence of OBL and his "Arabs" has, in the last 2 years or so, started to generate a great deal of resentment on the part of the local Afghans. At the same time the legitimacy of the Taliban regime has started to decrease as it has failed to end the war, as local humanitarian conditions have worsened and as "cultural" restrictions have become even harsher. It is my assessment that most Afghans no longer support the Taliban. Indeed the Taliban have recently had a very difficult time getting recruits for their forces and have had to rely more and more on non-Afghans, either from Pushtun tribes in Pakistan or from OBL. OBL and the Taliban, absent any US action were probably on their way to sharing the same fate that all other outsiders and outside doctrines have experienced in Afghanistan-defeat and dismemberment. During the Afghan war with the Soviets much attention was paid to the martial prowess of the Afghans. We were all at West Point at the time and most of us had high-minded idealistic thoughts about how we would all want to go help the brave "freedom fighters" in their struggle against the Soviets. Those concepts were naive to the extreme. The Afghans, while never conquered as a nation, are not invincible in battle. A "good" Afghan battle is one that makes a lot of noise and light. Basic military skills are rudimentary and clouded by cultural constraints that no matter what, a warrior should never lose his honor. Indeed, firing from the prone is considered distasteful (but still done). Traditionally, the Afghan order of battle is very feudal in nature, with fighters owing allegiance to a "commander" and this person owing allegiance upwards and so on and so on. Often such allegiance is secured by payment. And while the Taliban forces have changed this somewhat, many of the units in the Taliban army are there because they are being paid to be there. All such groups have very strong loyalties along ethnic and tribal lines. Again, the concept of having a place of "honor" and "respect" is of paramount importance and blood feuds between families and tribes can last for generations over a perceived or actual slight. That is one reason why there were 7 groups of Mujehdeen fighting the Russians. It is a very difficult task to form and keep united a large bunch of Afghans into a military formation. The "real" stories that have come out of the war against the Soviets are very enlightening and a lot different from our fantastic visions as cadets. When the first batch of Stingers came in and were given to one Mujehdeen group, another group-supposedly on the same side, attacked the first group and stole the Stingers, not so much because they wanted to use them, but because having them was a matter of prestige. Many larger coordinated attacks that advisers tried to conduct failed when all the various Afghan fighting groups would give up their assigned tasks (such as blocking or overwatch) and instead would join the assault group in order to seek glory. In comparison to Vietnam, the intensity of combat and the rate of fatalities were lower for all involved. As you can tell from above, it is my assessment that these guys are not THAT good in a purely military sense and the "Arabs" probably even less so than the Afghans. So why is it that they have never been conquered? It goes back to Dr. Kern's point about will. During their history the only events that have managed to form any semblance of unity among the Afghans, is the desire to fight foreign invaders. And in doing this the Afghans have been fanatical. The Afghans' greatest military strength is the ability to endure hardships that would, in all probability, kill most Americans and enervate the resolve of all but the most elite military units. The physical difficulties of fighting in Afghanistan, the terrain, the weather and the harshness are all weapons that our enemies will use to their advantage and use well. (NOTE: For you military planner types and armchair generals--around November 1st most road movement is impossible, in part because all the roads used by the Russians have been destroyed and air movement will be problematic at best). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:25:33 -0400 From: "Brian Brantley" Subject: Fw: Fw:NPR Our man in Afghanistan... Continued... Also, those fighting us are not afraid to fight. OBL and others do not think the US has the will or the stomach for a fight. Indeed after the absolutely inane missile strikes of 1998, the overwhelming consensus was that we were cowards, who would not risk one life in face to face combat. Rather than demonstrating our might and acting as a deterrent, that action and others of the not so recent past, have reinforced the perception that the US does not have any "will" and that were are morally and spiritually corrupt. Our challenge is to play to the weaknesses of our enemy, notably their propensity for internal struggles, the distrust between the extremists/Arabs and the majority of Afghans, their limited ability to fight coordinated battles and their lack of external support. More importantly though is that we have to take steps not to play to their strengths, which would be to unite the entire population against us by increasing their suffering or killing innocents, to get bogged down trying to hold terrain, or to get into a battle of attrition chasing up and down mountain valleys. I have been asked how I would fight the war. This is a big question and well beyond my pay grade or expertise. And while I do not want to second guess current plans or start an academic debate I would share the following from what I know about Afghanistan and the Afghans. First, I would give the Northern Alliance a big wad of cash so that they can buy off a chunk of the Taliban army before winter. Second, also with this cash I would pay some guys to kill some of the Taliban leadership making it look like an inside job to spread distrust and build on existing discord. Third I would support the Northern alliance with military assets, but not take it over or adopt so high a profile as to undermine its legitimacy in the eyes of most Afghans. Fourth would be to give massive amounts of humanitarian aid and assistance to the Afghans in Pakistan in order to demonstrate our goodwill and to give these guys a reason to live rather than the choice between dying of starvation or dying fighting the "infidel." Fifth, start a series of public works projects in areas of the country not under Taliban control (these are much more than the press reports) again to demonstrate goodwill and that improvements come with peace. Sixth, I would consider vary carefully putting any female service members into Afghanistan proper-sorry to the females of our class but within that culture a man who allows a women to fight for him has zero respect, and we will need respect to gain the cooperation of Afghan allies. No Afghan will work with a man who fights with women. I would hold off from doing anything too dramatic in the near term, keeping a low level of covert action and pressure up over the winter, allowing this pressure to force open the fissions around the Taliban that were already developing. expect that they will quickly turn on themselves and on OBL. We can pick up the pieces next summer, or the summer after. When we do "pick-up" the pieces I would make sure that we do so on the ground, "man to man." While I would never want to advocate American causalities, it is essential that we communicate to OBL and all others watching that we can and will "engage and destroy the enemy in close combat." As mentioned above, we should not try to gain or hold terrain, but Infantry operations against the enemy are essential. There can be no excuses after the defeat or lingering doubts in the minds of our enemies regarding American resolve and nothing, nothing will communicate this except for ground combat. And once this is all over, unlike in 1989 the US must provide continued long-term economic assistance to rebuild the country. While I have written too much already, I think it is also important to share a few things on the subject of brutality. Our opponents will not abide by the Geneva conventions. There will be no prisoners unless there is a chance that they can be ransomed or made part of a local prisoner exchange. During the war with the Soviets, videotapes were made of communist prisoners having their throats slit. Indeed, there did exist a "trade" in prisoners so that souvenir videos could be made by outsiders to take home with them. This practice has spread to the Philippines, Bosnia and Chechnya were similar videos are being made today and can be found on the web for those so inclined. We can expect our soldiers to be treated the same way. Sometime during this war I expect that we will see videos of US prisoners having their heads cut off. Our enemies will do this not only to demonstrate their "strength" to their followers, but also to cause us to overreact, to seek wholesale revenge against civilian populations and to turn this into the world wide religious war that they desperately want. This will be a test of our will and of our character. (For further collaboration of this type of activity please read Kipling). This will not be a pretty war; it will be a war of wills, of resolve and somewhat conversely of compassion and of a character. Towards our enemies, we must show a level of ruthlessness that has not been part of our military character for a long time. But to those who are not our enemies we must show a level of compassion probably unheard of during war. We should do this not for humanitarian reasons, even though there are many, but for shrewd military logic. For anyone who is still reading this way to long note, thanks for your patience. I will try to answer any questions that may arise in a more concise manner. Thanks, Richard Kidd ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:26:04 -0400 From: "Brian Brantley" Subject: Fw:NPR Our man in Afghanistan...Part 3 Continued... Also, those fighting us are not afraid to fight. OBL and others do not think the US has the will or the stomach for a fight. Indeed after the absolutely inane missile strikes of 1998, the overwhelming consensus was that we were cowards, who would not risk one life in face to face combat. Rather than demonstrating our might and acting as a deterrent, that action and others of the not so recent past, have reinforced the perception that the US does not have any "will" and that were are morally and spiritually corrupt. Our challenge is to play to the weaknesses of our enemy, notably their propensity for internal struggles, the distrust between the extremists/Arabs and the majority of Afghans, their limited ability to fight coordinated battles and their lack of external support. More importantly though is that we have to take steps not to play to their strengths, which would be to unite the entire population against us by increasing their suffering or killing innocents, to get bogged down trying to hold terrain, or to get into a battle of attrition chasing up and down mountain valleys. I have been asked how I would fight the war. This is a big question and well beyond my pay grade or expertise. And while I do not want to second guess current plans or start an academic debate I would share the following from what I know about Afghanistan and the Afghans. First, I would give the Northern Alliance a big wad of cash so that they can buy off a chunk of the Taliban army before winter. Second, also with this cash I would pay some guys to kill some of the Taliban leadership making it look like an inside job to spread distrust and build on existing discord. Third I would support the Northern alliance with military assets, but not take it over or adopt so high a profile as to undermine its legitimacy in the eyes of most Afghans. Fourth would be to give massive amounts of humanitarian aid and assistance to the Afghans in Pakistan in order to demonstrate our goodwill and to give these guys a reason to live rather than the choice between dying of starvation or dying fighting the "infidel." Fifth, start a series of public works projects in areas of the country not under Taliban control (these are much more than the press reports) again to demonstrate goodwill and that improvements come with peace. Sixth, I would consider vary carefully putting any female service members into Afghanistan proper-sorry to the females of our class but within that culture a man who allows a women to fight for him has zero respect, and we will need respect to gain the cooperation of Afghan allies. No Afghan will work with a man who fights with women. I would hold off from doing anything too dramatic in the near term, keeping a low level of covert action and pressure up over the winter, allowing this pressure to force open the fissions around the Taliban that were already developing. expect that they will quickly turn on themselves and on OBL. We can pick up the pieces next summer, or the summer after. When we do "pick-up" the pieces I would make sure that we do so on the ground, "man to man." While I would never want to advocate American causalities, it is essential that we communicate to OBL and all others watching that we can and will "engage and destroy the enemy in close combat." As mentioned above, we should not try to gain or hold terrain, but Infantry operations against the enemy are essential. There can be no excuses after the defeat or lingering doubts in the minds of our enemies regarding American resolve and nothing, nothing will communicate this except for ground combat. And once this is all over, unlike in 1989 the US must provide continued long-term economic assistance to rebuild the country. While I have written too much already, I think it is also important to share a few things on the subject of brutality. Our opponents will not abide by the Geneva conventions. There will be no prisoners unless there is a chance that they can be ransomed or made part of a local prisoner exchange. During the war with the Soviets, videotapes were made of communist prisoners having their throats slit. Indeed, there did exist a "trade" in prisoners so that souvenir videos could be made by outsiders to take home with them. This practice has spread to the Philippines, Bosnia and Chechnya were similar videos are being made today and can be found on the web for those so inclined. We can expect our soldiers to be treated the same way. Sometime during this war I expect that we will see videos of US prisoners having their heads cut off. Our enemies will do this not only to demonstrate their "strength" to their followers, but also to cause us to overreact, to seek wholesale revenge against civilian populations and to turn this into the world wide religious war that they desperately want. This will be a test of our will and of our character. (For further collaboration of this type of activity please read Kipling). This will not be a pretty war; it will be a war of wills, of resolve and somewhat conversely of compassion and of a character. Towards our enemies, we must show a level of ruthlessness that has not been part of our military character for a long time. But to those who are not our enemies we must show a level of compassion probably unheard of during war. We should do this not for humanitarian reasons, even though there are many, but for shrewd military logic. For anyone who is still reading this way to long note, thanks for your patience. I will try to answer any questions that may arise in a more concise manner. Thanks, Richard Kidd ------------------------------ End of angry-psychos-digest V6 #456 ***********************************