From: owner-angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org (angry-psychos-digest) To: angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org Subject: angry-psychos-digest V6 #429 Reply-To: angry-psychos@smoe.org Sender: owner-angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-angry-psychos-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "angry-psychos-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. angry-psychos-digest Wednesday, September 26 2001 Volume 06 : Number 429 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Wisconsin APs - Please Read [Jim Sullivan ] Goes w/ Vote for Poe on CTN [angie ] POE PLATES [angie ] Re: NPR-check this out... [Miki Proud ] Joey: Re: POE ["sp00k@poe.org" ] Re: Re: POE / WBER ["sp00k@poe.org" ] NPR: Flamebait [Erik Schalburg ] NPR: Flamewar.... [Beener2100@aol.com] Re: NPR-check this out... ["John A. Bell" ] NPR: Finished HOL ["John A. Bell" ] Re: NPR: Finished HOL [UnbrokenVixen@aol.com] NPR: Beautiful caffine [Alex Richardson ] NPR Know Anybody Enlisting? ["sp00k@poe.org" ] Re: NPR-check this out...HOAX ["Brian Brantley" ] NPR: Don't give peace a chance? [tohaveaplan@att.net] NPR Re: Don't give peace a chance? ["sp00k@poe.org" ] Re: NPR Re: Don't give peace a chance? ["John A. Bell" ] NPR: HOL ["John A. Bell" ] Re: Goes w/ Vote for Poe on CTN [Cyberfan Corporation ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 00:35:43 -0700 From: Jim Sullivan Subject: Re: Wisconsin APs - Please Read I just joined the APs last week, but I'm in Wisconsin, and I'd be glad to be a member of the WiAPs if you wanted to start such a group. - -Jim J.R. Swantz wrote: >Hello Wisconsin Psychos. > >Although I've been a fan of Poe's since the beginning, I have just in the >last 4 months become an AP. Why? It wasn't until a friend of mine told me >that I was obsessed that I realized I truly was. > >Anyways, not being in the family for a few years, I'm not sure what the >state of the APs in Wisconsin is. Is there a group of WiAP (Wisconsin Angry >Psychos)? Are there any events planned when Poe is in the area? Are there >any events planned just to get together? Is there someone in charge of >these things in Wisconsin? > >That last question is why I write this. I am quite interested in being the >director, liason, organizer of the WiAPs. Is there someone already? If >there is, I'm more than willing to help. If there isn't someone, I think >I'm going to claim the spot. > >So, WiAPs. Please let me know the status. If you are the director, let me >know you are and let me know how I can help. Also, let me know if you are >interested in something like this if there isn't already a group of WiAPs. > >I'm going to hang this in limbo until October 5th. If no one claims to be >part of a Wisconsin AP group by then, I'm going to officially start up the >WiAPs and be acting director. > >Please send me an e-mail at jrswantz@poe.org if you are a Wisconsin >director, or if you want to help, or if you just are interested in being >notified of WiAP events. > >Thank you, >J.R. > >-- >Time to gather up the splinters >And build a casket for my tears > > "Haunted" - Poe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 02:55:49 -0400 From: angie Subject: CTN/VOTE FOR POE http://www.collegetelevision.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 03:08:36 -0400 From: angie Subject: Goes w/ Vote for Poe on CTN She's not on the list at http://www.collegetelevision.com/ (so let's get her on there) Tell them you're gonna watch the GRAVITY GAMES THAT SHE CO MC'd and that it would make sense to have her available to vote for as a favorite on their site. Contact Atlanta One Capital City Plaza Suite 1500 3350 Peachtree Road Atlanta, GA 30326 (404) 256-4444 (800) 256-1636 (404) 843-8842 fax Chicago 213 West Institute Place Suite 302 Chicago, IL 60610 (312) 932-0720 (877) 800-4483 (312) 932-0727 fax Los Angeles 2041 Rosecrans Avenue Suite 235 El Segundo, CA 90245 (310) 606-6100 (800) 486-4636 (310) 606-6101 fax New York 32 East 57th Street 11-12 Floors New York, NY 10022 (212) 980-6600 (800) 586-4636 (212) 755-5992 fax ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 05:04:23 -0400 From: angie Subject: POE PLATES http://www.p-o-e.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001066.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 03:41:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Miki Proud Subject: Re: NPR-check this out... It's all the number 11's fault. Quick, let's bomb the number 11! - --- *Miss Understood* wrote: > > I thought the flight numbers of the planes that > crashed into the Trade > Center Towers were 11 and 175...not Q33...so where > did that number come > from? Otherwise, it is freaky and not cool at all. > > Melissa > > "If love is the answer, > can you please rephrase the question?" > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ===== I dreamt tomorrow had a prettier face... He's a merman...he doesn't need a voice And right there for a minute, I knew you so well . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:09:56 -0400 From: "sp00k@poe.org" Subject: Joey: Re: POE Hello Joey, I treaded a couple of e-mails with Robby Black and here is the information he gave me. I don't know that WBER actualy does any booking of the bands for the shows you sponsor, but I will start by asking if you / WBER want to follow up on this information and try to book Poe for a show, or if I should move on to one of colleges. Thanks sp00k CAA is creative artist agency, it's her booking agent. from CAA.com CREATIVE ARTISTS AGENCY LITERARY AND TALENT AGENCY 9830 WILSHIRE BOULEVARD BEVERLY HILLS, CALIFORNIA 90212-1825 TELEPHONE: 310-288-4545 - FACSIMILE: 310-288-4800 they can call and ask for POE's agent, they should know how to approach this. it is sponsored by Depo-Provera. It's a pretty good deal have them check it out. If not you could call RIT or U of R to see if they want to do it. ================================ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:53:42 -0400 From: "sp00k@poe.org" Subject: Re: Re: POE / WBER The e-mail to Joey @ WBER got sent to the list by error, but hey at least it was POE related. Any whoo, you saw the question so you might as well see the response also. "We don't promote shows, but leave that to the experts that do it for a living. We have been telling them for the past year that we'd like to have her in town, Hopefully, it will happen." sp00k etc ... ============================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:12:08 -0400 From: Erik Schalburg Subject: NPR: Flamebait What the hell, I'm a gambling man. Rusty was the only AP at the free Atlanta show that wasn't an ass to me, my first Poe show as an AP (other than the Faerie! Hey Faerie!), so here's $20 on Rusty. Deathmatch! Deathmatch! - -----Original Message----- From: Onagh Levy [mailto:onagh@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 6:39 PM To: angry-psychos@smoe.org Subject: NPR: RE: Hey Rusty $%&! You 2 Well, since I came into this flame war right smack in the middle, I can't be a fair and impartial judge..... However, the darling sp00k has always been wonderful to me, always polite, always respectful. (maybe cuz I'm ex-military?? who knows) ***tosses a $20 into the pot*** My money is on sp00k too. (not sure which makes me giggle more, the sound of the word "absurdity" or the absurdity of this particular situation!!) PS, I haven't heard Wild on any stations in LA yet, not even KROQ, but then again they seem to have a moratorium on women these days. ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:51:23 -0400 From: "Brian Brantley" Subject: Re: RE: Hey Rusty You 2 OK OK ........YEAH!!!!!!! Now this is entertainment. By the way, my money's on sp00k. No offense Rusty but I gotta side with the Navy on this one!!!!! LMAO at the absurdity.......... - - ----- Original Message ----- From: "sp00k@poe.org" To: "Erik Schalburg" ; "Angry-Psychos" Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:37 PM Subject: Re: RE: Hey Rusty You 2 - - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik Schalburg" To: "Angry-Psychos" Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 2:11 PM Subject: NPR: RE: Hey Rusty Fuck You 2 > > You can have your little war if you want, although I personally don't > understand why you're doing it on the list, could you at least NPR it? > Hey, perhaps you should address that question to the S.E. A.P regional coordinator, who created this thread without the use of NPR, I'm just responding. Why you addressing this to me? I didn't create this little war the great leader did. What, you can't ask him why HE took it to the main list? Just me eh? I was just sitting here minding my own business, when he came by with that stick and poked me in the eYe, and he shouldn't have done that. sp00k etc ... ====================================================== ===== ********************************************************** YLEO Dist# 405211 http://www.living-magic.com http://members.nbci.com/Onagh33 ********************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:37:00 EDT From: Beener2100@aol.com Subject: NPR: Flamewar.... Gerf guys.... Can't we all just get along? Can't you guys just try and get along for the sake of the board and it's members? Remember, even if you don't like the idea, you guys set an example.. Being that I don't know either of you, I'm probably out of place writing this. Just thought I'd give it a shot..... Alezka ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:47:08 -0400 From: "John A. Bell" Subject: Re: NPR-check this out... Of course, you know that Q33 IS NOT the name of any flight #, plane #, or anything... - -jb - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 10:52 PM Subject: NPR-check this out... > > This will blow you away. > > > A friend sent this to me check it out.. very freaky.. ~anna > ******************************************************************* > go into MS word Type "Q33 NY" in capital letters (which is the flight > number > of one of the planes who crashed in to the WTC)... then apply "Bold" and > > font size 26 (or bigger)... > and change the font into "wingdings" (the first one)... > and look... you won't believe it! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:56:34 -0400 From: "John A. Bell" Subject: NPR: Finished HOL I just finished House of Leaves last night at 3am. And I can say it finally... WOW. There is *no* other book like it on Earth. Nope. Not even one. If you aren't reading this book, you deserve to be spanked. Go out and buy it! Online! At a bookstore! At the library! Just READ IT, DAMMIT. If nothing else, the songs on Haunted get a new dimension added when you consider their place in relation to the book. I had been planning to writeup a nice little review of the book or something, but I'm still in too much awe to say anything coherent about it. So, that's it. - -jb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:56:54 EDT From: UnbrokenVixen@aol.com Subject: Re: NPR: Finished HOL In a message dated 9/26/2001 9:52:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jbell126@nac.net writes: > I just finished House of Leaves last night at 3am. And I can say it > finally... > WOW. > > There is *no* other book like it on Earth. > > Nope. Not even one. > It affected me the same way. I couldn't think of anything else for DAYS afterward and I've read it three more times, LOL. I've been trying to do a write up of it too and I can't seem to find the right words to express how amazing it is. =) I still get nightmares... ~alex You think I'll c r y? I w o n ' t cry. My heart will b r e a k before I cry. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 06:59:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Richardson Subject: NPR: Beautiful caffine Oh thank you caffeine for your electrifying touch. You give me the courage to face another day. Paired with your friend sugar, you give me the power and the will to smite all of my foes with a wall of non-sequitorish babble that defies reason in its complexity and its discontinuity. Suddenly I feel the need to reach out and cyber hug all the psychos and for those of you thoroughly embroiled in flame wars I give you my sternest care bear stare! Oh caffeine how simple in form how easily you fill me with caramel latte mirth... You see this morning in the wee dark hours of west coast pre dawn; I experienced a little slice of perfection. As I commuted to work I had our lady singing me sweetly out of my post slumber fog. One hand on the wheel and the other pausing in between sips only to shift. All is good look out world here comes an over caffinated psycho! ~*Ok thanks for letting me share :) -Alex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:00:14 -0400 From: "sp00k@poe.org" Subject: NPR Know Anybody Enlisting? It is apparent that enlistment in the armed forces is up, as are the recruiting efforts. Without a big debate on the pros and cons, I offer this link to those who read this who may be considering "joining up" or who know of someone that is. http://www.military.com/Recruiting/FrontDoor/ Pay close attention to the link that explains the difference between being "enlisted" and an "officer" I will say that the recruiting ads that focus on the concept of "I am an army of 1" is not a new idea to the military itself. It has long been held by experts that one of the main reasons that the U.S. has such a powerful military is the fact that Americans are stubborn, opinionated, individuals who have no problem acting on their own. Only those who are willing to respond to the demand that you strive for your personal best in all aspects of your life of face the wrath of your employer, should apply. Keep in mind, when I did my four years, I went in knowing that the ONLY way out for me was with an "Honorable Discharge" MANY others, were willing to settle for less, and had a miserable time in the process until kicked out. P.S. while on the subject of Uncle Sam "We Want You!" I just recalled this new to me web site Welcome to the Citizen's Guide to U.S. Government Resources on the World Wide Web http://www.uncle-sam.com/ sp00k etc ... Http://Poe.Org Http://DigitalSter.Com ================================ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:07:39 -0400 From: "Brian Brantley" Subject: Re: NPR-check this out...HOAX Think about this folks. That is no flight number that I have ever heard. The format is all wrong. THIS IS A HOAX!!!!!! It just ain't true....... Ignorance is fueled by the masses........ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "*Miss Understood*" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 11:21 PM Subject: Re: NPR-check this out... I thought the flight numbers of the planes that crashed into the Trade Center Towers were 11 and 175...not Q33...so where did that number come from? Otherwise, it is freaky and not cool at all. Melissa "If love is the answer, can you please rephrase the question?" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:07:03 -0400 From: Erik Schalburg Subject: RE: Beautiful caffine Here here! I'm finishing up my second cup o' Sumatra, been listening to our Mistress of Groove all morning, as is par. Sad I don't have the same linguistic skills as you! - -----Original Message----- From: Alex Richardson [mailto:monkeytrinket@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 9:59 AM To: angry-psychos@smoe.org Subject: NPR: Beautiful caffine Oh thank you caffeine for your electrifying touch. You give me the courage to face another day. Paired with your friend sugar, you give me the power and the will to smite all of my foes with a wall of non-sequitorish babble that defies reason in its complexity and its discontinuity. Suddenly I feel the need to reach out and cyber hug all the psychos and for those of you thoroughly embroiled in flame wars I give you my sternest care bear stare! Oh caffeine how simple in form how easily you fill me with caramel latte mirth... You see this morning in the wee dark hours of west coast pre dawn; I experienced a little slice of perfection. As I commuted to work I had our lady singing me sweetly out of my post slumber fog. One hand on the wheel and the other pausing in between sips only to shift. All is good look out world here comes an over caffinated psycho! ~*Ok thanks for letting me share :) -Alex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:20:53 +0000 From: tohaveaplan@att.net Subject: NPR: Don't give peace a chance? _____What's Your Opinion?_____ . . . Pacifist Claptrap By Michael Kelly Washington Post Wednesday, September 26, 2001; Page A25 Pacifists are not serious people, although they devoutly believe they are, and their arguments are not being taken seriously at the moment. Yet it is worth taking seriously, and in advance of need, the pacifists and their appeal. It is worth it, first of all, because the idea of peace is inherently attractive; and the more war there is, the more attractive the idea becomes. Second, it is worth it because the reactionary left-liberal crowd in America and in Europe has already staked out its ground here: What happened to America is America's fault, the fruits of foolish arrogance and greedy imperialism, racism, colonialism, etc., etc. From this rises an argument that the resulting war is also an exercise in arrogance and imperialism, etc., and not deserving of support. This argument will be made with greater fearlessness as the first memories of the 7,000 murdered recede. Third, it is worth it because the American foreign policy establishment has all the heart for war of a titmouse, and not one of your braver titmice. The first faint, let- us-be-reasonable bleats can even now be heard: Yes, we must do something, but is an escalation of aggression really the right thing? Mightn't it just make matters ever so much worse? Pacifists see themselves as obviously on the side of a higher morality, and there is a surface appeal to this notion, even for those who dismiss pacifism as hopelessly naive. The pacifists' argument is rooted entirely in this appeal: Two wrongs don't make a right; violence only begets more violence. There can be truth in the pacifists' claim to the moral high ground, notably in the case of a war that is waged for manifestly evil purposes. So, for instance, a German citizen who declined to fight for the Nazi cause could be seen (although not likely by his family and friends) as occupying the moral position. But in the situation where one's nation has been attacked -- a situation such as we are now in -- pacifism is, inescapably and profoundly, immoral. Indeed, in the case of this specific situation, pacifism is on the side of the murderers, and it is on the side of letting them murder again. In 1942 George Orwell wrote this, in Partisan Review, of Great Britain's pacifists: "Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me.' " England's pacifists howled, but Orwell's logic was implacable. The Nazis wished the British to not fight. If the British did not fight, the Nazis would conquer Britain. The British pacifists also wished the British to not fight. The British pacifists, therefore, were on the side of a Nazi victory over Britain. They were objectively pro-Fascist. An essentially identical logic obtains now. Organized terrorist groups have attacked America. These groups wish the Americans to not fight. The American pacifists wish the Americans to not fight. If the Americans do not fight, the terrorists will attack America again. And now we know such attacks can kill many thousands of Americans. The American pacifists, therefore, are on the side of future mass murders of Americans. They are objectively pro-terrorist. There is no way out of this reasoning. No honest person can pretend that the groups that attacked America will, if let alone, not attack again. Nor can any honest person say that this attack is not at least reasonably likely to kill thousands upon thousands of innocent people. To not fight in this instance is to let the attackers live to attack and murder again; to be a pacifist in this instance is to accept and, in practice, support this outcome. As President Bush said of nations: A war has been declared; you are either on one side or another. You are either for doing what is necessary to capture or kill those who control and fund and harbor the terrorists, or you are for not doing this. If you are for not doing this, you are for allowing the terrorists to continue their attacks on America. You are saying, in fact: I believe that it is better to allow more Americans -- perhaps a great many more -- to be murdered than to capture or kill the murderers. That is the pacifists' position, and it is evil. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:46:04 -0400 From: "sp00k@poe.org" Subject: NPR Re: Don't give peace a chance? Bravo! I still can't shake the feeling of how it seems that people just don't take this as serious as it is. sp00k etc ... =========================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:53:24 -0500 From: "aNfrey cHeng" Subject: NPR Re: Don't give peace a chance? okay, this article angered me. the author's logic only makes sense with the assumption that a person must side either for their nation or for whomever's attacking. what gives? it is not a question of WHO but rather a WHAT. i myself am a pacifist and i'm less concerned about who is practicing violence than with the fact that it's happening around the world, affecting us. i do not support the war efforts, nor do i not support terrorist efforts. if another human being can't feel that personal responsibility to care for another life rather than hurt it, then something is terribly wrong. to those who read this, i just woke up so it might not make much sense. i apologize. this article made me feel not well, and to feel better i felt like i had to voice some sort of opinion. i'll wake up soon enough. peace, anfrey - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Poe mail list Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 09:20 Subject: NPR: Don't give peace a chance? | | _____What's Your Opinion?_____ | . . . Pacifist Claptrap | By Michael Kelly | Washington Post Wednesday, September 26, 2001; Page A25 | | Pacifists are not serious people, although they devoutly | believe they are, and their arguments are not being | taken seriously at the moment. Yet it is worth taking | seriously, and in advance of need, the pacifists and | their appeal. | | It is worth it, first of all, because the idea of peace | is inherently attractive; and the more war there is, the | more attractive the idea becomes. Second, it is worth it | because the reactionary left-liberal crowd in America | and in Europe has already staked out its ground here: | What happened to America is America's fault, the fruits | of foolish arrogance and greedy imperialism, racism, | colonialism, etc., etc. From this rises an argument that | the resulting war is also an exercise in arrogance and | imperialism, etc., and not deserving of support. This | argument will be made with greater fearlessness as the | first memories of the 7,000 murdered recede. Third, it | is worth it because the American foreign policy | establishment has all the heart for war of a titmouse, | and not one of your braver titmice. The first faint, let- | us-be-reasonable bleats can even now be heard: Yes, we | must do something, but is an escalation of aggression | really the right thing? Mightn't it just make matters | ever so much worse? | | Pacifists see themselves as obviously on the side of a | higher morality, and there is a surface appeal to this | notion, even for those who dismiss pacifism as | hopelessly naive. The pacifists' argument is rooted | entirely in this appeal: Two wrongs don't make a right; | violence only begets more violence. | | There can be truth in the pacifists' claim to the moral | high ground, notably in the case of a war that is waged | for manifestly evil purposes. So, for instance, a German | citizen who declined to fight for the Nazi cause could | be seen (although not likely by his family and friends) | as occupying the moral position. But in the situation | where one's nation has been attacked -- a situation such | as we are now in -- pacifism is, inescapably and | profoundly, immoral. Indeed, in the case of this | specific situation, pacifism is on the side of the | murderers, and it is on the side of letting them murder | again. | | In 1942 George Orwell wrote this, in Partisan Review, of | Great Britain's pacifists: | | "Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary | common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side | you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is | there any real way of remaining outside such a war as | the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is | against me.' " | | England's pacifists howled, but Orwell's logic was | implacable. The Nazis wished the British to not fight. | If the British did not fight, the Nazis would conquer | Britain. The British pacifists also wished the British | to not fight. The British pacifists, therefore, were on | the side of a Nazi victory over Britain. They were | objectively pro-Fascist. | | An essentially identical logic obtains now. Organized | terrorist groups have attacked America. These groups | wish the Americans to not fight. The American pacifists | wish the Americans to not fight. If the Americans do not | fight, the terrorists will attack America again. And now | we know such attacks can kill many thousands of | Americans. The American pacifists, therefore, are on the | side of future mass murders of Americans. They are | objectively pro-terrorist. | | There is no way out of this reasoning. No honest person | can pretend that the groups that attacked America will, | if let alone, not attack again. Nor can any honest | person say that this attack is not at least reasonably | likely to kill thousands upon thousands of innocent | people. To not fight in this instance is to let the | attackers live to attack and murder again; to be a | pacifist in this instance is to accept and, in practice, | support this outcome. | | As President Bush said of nations: A war has been | declared; you are either on one side or another. You are | either for doing what is necessary to capture or kill | those who control and fund and harbor the terrorists, or | you are for not doing this. If you are for not doing | this, you are for allowing the terrorists to continue | their attacks on America. You are saying, in fact: I | believe that it is better to allow more Americans -- | perhaps a great many more -- to be murdered than to | capture or kill the murderers. | | That is the pacifists' position, and it is evil. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:05:24 -0400 From: "John A. Bell" Subject: Re: NPR Re: Don't give peace a chance? Well, it is true. If you read further down at Orwell's argument, it makes sense. Besides which, in the current situation, I have yet to hear a feasible alternative to war. Just my two cents. - -jb - ----- Original Message ----- From: aNfrey cHeng To: aNgRy pSycHos Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 10:53 AM Subject: NPR Re: Don't give peace a chance? > > okay, this article angered me. the author's logic only makes sense with the > assumption that a person must side either for their nation or for whomever's > attacking. what gives? it is not a question of WHO but rather a WHAT. i > myself am a pacifist and i'm less concerned about who is practicing violence > than with the fact that it's happening around the world, affecting us. i do > not support the war efforts, nor do i not support terrorist efforts. if > another human being can't feel that personal responsibility to care for > another life rather than hurt it, then something is terribly wrong. > > to those who read this, i just woke up so it might not make much sense. i > apologize. this article made me feel not well, and to feel better i felt > like i had to voice some sort of opinion. i'll wake up soon enough. > > peace, > anfrey > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: Poe mail list > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 09:20 > Subject: NPR: Don't give peace a chance? > > > | > | _____What's Your Opinion?_____ > | . . . Pacifist Claptrap > | By Michael Kelly > | Washington Post Wednesday, September 26, 2001; Page A25 > | > | Pacifists are not serious people, although they devoutly > | believe they are, and their arguments are not being > | taken seriously at the moment. Yet it is worth taking > | seriously, and in advance of need, the pacifists and > | their appeal. > | > | It is worth it, first of all, because the idea of peace > | is inherently attractive; and the more war there is, the > | more attractive the idea becomes. Second, it is worth it > | because the reactionary left-liberal crowd in America > | and in Europe has already staked out its ground here: > | What happened to America is America's fault, the fruits > | of foolish arrogance and greedy imperialism, racism, > | colonialism, etc., etc. From this rises an argument that > | the resulting war is also an exercise in arrogance and > | imperialism, etc., and not deserving of support. This > | argument will be made with greater fearlessness as the > | first memories of the 7,000 murdered recede. Third, it > | is worth it because the American foreign policy > | establishment has all the heart for war of a titmouse, > | and not one of your braver titmice. The first faint, let- > | us-be-reasonable bleats can even now be heard: Yes, we > | must do something, but is an escalation of aggression > | really the right thing? Mightn't it just make matters > | ever so much worse? > | > | Pacifists see themselves as obviously on the side of a > | higher morality, and there is a surface appeal to this > | notion, even for those who dismiss pacifism as > | hopelessly naive. The pacifists' argument is rooted > | entirely in this appeal: Two wrongs don't make a right; > | violence only begets more violence. > | > | There can be truth in the pacifists' claim to the moral > | high ground, notably in the case of a war that is waged > | for manifestly evil purposes. So, for instance, a German > | citizen who declined to fight for the Nazi cause could > | be seen (although not likely by his family and friends) > | as occupying the moral position. But in the situation > | where one's nation has been attacked -- a situation such > | as we are now in -- pacifism is, inescapably and > | profoundly, immoral. Indeed, in the case of this > | specific situation, pacifism is on the side of the > | murderers, and it is on the side of letting them murder > | again. > | > | In 1942 George Orwell wrote this, in Partisan Review, of > | Great Britain's pacifists: > | > | "Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary > | common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side > | you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is > | there any real way of remaining outside such a war as > | the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is > | against me.' " > | > | England's pacifists howled, but Orwell's logic was > | implacable. The Nazis wished the British to not fight. > | If the British did not fight, the Nazis would conquer > | Britain. The British pacifists also wished the British > | to not fight. The British pacifists, therefore, were on > | the side of a Nazi victory over Britain. They were > | objectively pro-Fascist. > | > | An essentially identical logic obtains now. Organized > | terrorist groups have attacked America. These groups > | wish the Americans to not fight. The American pacifists > | wish the Americans to not fight. If the Americans do not > | fight, the terrorists will attack America again. And now > | we know such attacks can kill many thousands of > | Americans. The American pacifists, therefore, are on the > | side of future mass murders of Americans. They are > | objectively pro-terrorist. > | > | There is no way out of this reasoning. No honest person > | can pretend that the groups that attacked America will, > | if let alone, not attack again. Nor can any honest > | person say that this attack is not at least reasonably > | likely to kill thousands upon thousands of innocent > | people. To not fight in this instance is to let the > | attackers live to attack and murder again; to be a > | pacifist in this instance is to accept and, in practice, > | support this outcome. > | > | As President Bush said of nations: A war has been > | declared; you are either on one side or another. You are > | either for doing what is necessary to capture or kill > | those who control and fund and harbor the terrorists, or > | you are for not doing this. If you are for not doing > | this, you are for allowing the terrorists to continue > | their attacks on America. You are saying, in fact: I > | believe that it is better to allow more Americans -- > | perhaps a great many more -- to be murdered than to > | capture or kill the murderers. > | > | That is the pacifists' position, and it is evil. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:06:23 -0400 From: "John A. Bell" Subject: NPR: HOL Okay, I couldn't think of anything to say before about House of Leaves, but I did now. See it at http://www.livejournal.com/~gomer43 It's the top/most recent entry. - -jb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:38:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Cyberfan Corporation Subject: Re: Goes w/ Vote for Poe on CTN I can't find any place to actuall "vote" for POE do you have a direct link? *************************************************** JK/// Jarrod Kniff President - Cyberfan Corporation jarrod@cyberfan.com *************************************************** "One important key to success is self-confidence. An important key to self-confidence is preparation." -- Arthur Ashe *************************************************** On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, angie wrote: > > She's not on the list at http://www.collegetelevision.com/ (so let's > get her on there) > Tell them you're gonna watch the GRAVITY GAMES THAT SHE CO MC'd and that > it would make sense to have her available to vote for as a favorite on > their site. > Contact > Atlanta > One Capital City Plaza > Suite 1500 > 3350 Peachtree Road > Atlanta, GA 30326 > (404) 256-4444 > (800) 256-1636 > (404) 843-8842 fax > > > Chicago > 213 West Institute Place > Suite 302 > Chicago, IL 60610 > (312) 932-0720 > (877) 800-4483 > (312) 932-0727 fax > > > Los Angeles > 2041 Rosecrans Avenue > Suite 235 > El Segundo, CA 90245 > (310) 606-6100 > (800) 486-4636 > (310) 606-6101 fax > > > New York > 32 East 57th Street > 11-12 Floors > New York, NY 10022 > (212) 980-6600 > (800) 586-4636 > (212) 755-5992 fax ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:39:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Richardson Subject: Re: NPR Re: Don't give peace a chance? Hey Spook, I think the reason people are reluctant to take this serious is that we, as a nation, have been desensitized to terrorism. All of the previous terrorist attacks up until now have been relatively small by comparison. When the news counted up the American dead on international flights like the one that crashed in Lockerbey Scotland the numbers at most might climb into the 100's. Untill now Terrorism has sort of been one of those annoying little statistics that has been presented to us on the evening news right before the weather. Not to trivialize it but until now no one really felt its impact unless they lost a friend or a loved one. America has been desensitized to the idea of terrorism. Now that a terrorist organization has done something impossible to ignore we are all appalled by it and mad one week but as attention spans dwindle in these days of the electric switch and the microchip, Americans seem to be able to let these acts fade into the background at an alarmingly quick rate. Add to the mix a great number of people who have grown up not knowing what its like to live in times of war and you get the apathy that seems to be slowly taking over. It scares me. -Alex - --- "sp00k@poe.org" wrote: > > Bravo! I still can't shake the feeling of how it > seems that people just don't take this as > serious as it is. > > sp00k etc ... > =========================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:40:07 -0500 From: Jennifer Cook Subject: RE: NPR-check this out...HOAX Okay, here's my rant... Technology is a wondrous thing, especially when it can enhance our daily lives like e-mail and the internet do... BUT, I'm am so freakin' tired of the stupid e-mail forwards and hoaxes. Especially, after the terrible tragedy that just happened. I have been so bombarded by e-mails from friends and co-workers, that are SO STUPID... I don't care if someone could see the devil's face in the dust clouds when the WTC's collapsed... Yeah, well I saw many a duck and tugboats in the clouds when I was a kid looking up into the sky. I really don't care that someone had so much time on their hands that they created some stupid faux flight number that when put into Wingding font, will "freak you out"... OOOOHHHH SPOOKY! I just received another one... Some guy is standing atop the WTC and the plane is headed straight for them. WHATEVER! Are we that gullible? Do we really need 10 million "inspirational" forwards to make it through the day. Yeah, I actually enjoyed a couple of them and they made me smile a little, but when I receive one after another after another after another... it gets a little old. If people are so concerned, stop forwarding e-mails and do something to help. Anyone else agree? Okay, I'm done with my little rant for now... Whew, do I feel better! Love to all the AP's and even more to our Poe. Jennifer :-) - -----Original Message----- From: Brian Brantley [mailto:rbbrantley@steelspaninc.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 9:08 AM To: angry-psychos@smoe.org Subject: Re: NPR-check this out...HOAX Think about this folks. That is no flight number that I have ever heard. The format is all wrong. THIS IS A HOAX!!!!!! It just ain't true....... Ignorance is fueled by the masses........ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "*Miss Understood*" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 11:21 PM Subject: Re: NPR-check this out... I thought the flight numbers of the planes that crashed into the Trade Center Towers were 11 and 175...not Q33...so where did that number come from? Otherwise, it is freaky and not cool at all. Melissa "If love is the answer, can you please rephrase the question?" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of angry-psychos-digest V6 #429 ***********************************