From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V4 #249 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Saturday, June 3 2000 Volume 04 : Number 249 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: OT: Authors [serra44@aol.comantispam (Jill Friedman)] Re: OT: Authors [Robin Kent ] Re: OT: Authors [mocksie@aol.com (Mysterious Mocksie)] Attention: Homeowners & Soon To Be Homeowners [HomeHelp@oiio.fsnet.co.uk] Re: I am selling computers and components for CHEAP !!! 5196 ["Jason Fro] Re: OT: Sean Altman in VH1 Undiscovered contest! [vika@attglobal.net (Vik] OT: Sean Altman in VH1 Undiscovered contest! [nmcgrath@world.std.com (Nan] Re: yes, i was just wearing a scarf ["Jason From Delaware" ] Re: ammf traffic [chad schrock ] Re: OT: Authors [LilacGirl1002@aol.com] Re: The Ovulation Tango.... [chad schrock ] Re: Herndon 6/1/00 setlist [chad schrock ] Re: The Vault show, 6/2/00 [bbwminors@aol.com (BBWMinors)] Douglas Adams WAS-Re: OT: Authors [serra44@aol.comantispam (Jill Friedman] Re: The Vault show, 6/2/00 [mocksie@aol.com (Mysterious Mocksie)] Re: OT: Authors [mocksie@aol.com (Mysterious Mocksie)] Re: The Fru-Tang Clan? [Mike Wood ] pork tenderloin lyrics, anybody? [MJ ] Re: The Vault show, 6/2/00 [fruvousgirl@aol.comedy.hour (Angela)] Re: The Fru-Tang Clan? [Marie-Claude Danis ] Re: OT: Authors [SugarFly26@aol.com] Re: pork tenderloin lyrics, anybody? [lisardbeth@aol.com (LISARDBETH)] Re: OT: Authors [neil@nospam.flipse.com (Neil Bardhan)] Herndon 6/2 and/or Baltimore 6/3 ["Randall Prince" ] Re: OT: Authors [kyla ] Appel Farm Folk Fest!!! [lisardbeth@aol.comnojunk (Lis Boriss)] Re: OT: Sean Altman in VH1 Undiscovered contest! [lupin@REMOVETHISbitey.n] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 03 Jun 2000 05:29:28 GMT From: serra44@aol.comantispam (Jill Friedman) Subject: Re: OT: Authors >suggestions >on some good authors and/or books in the range of literary fiction. I'd have to say Kurt Vonnegut is fabulous. I suggest reading "Welcome to the Monkey House" first. It's a collection of short stories, so you can get used to his writing style. (it's pretty out-there) In his books, there's always mention of a few characters in his Universe. It's good to read the short stories first so you can get a sense of those characters before you read his other stuff. I read Slaughterhouse Five first, but I found I appreciated it much more on a re-read after I'd read more of his stuff. - -J The Leopard Lady "People shouldn't be judged by the color of their skin. They should be judged on important things like their taste in music!"-Murphy Brown "She's too short to play me."-Joey Potter Too short to play herself in a movie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 05:40:53 GMT From: Robin Kent Subject: Re: OT: Authors Fugitive Pieces by Anne Micheals Fall on Your Knees by Anne Marie Macdonald Palace Walk by Naguib Mafouz The Farming of Bones by Edwidge Dandicat Pretty much anything by Micheal Ondaatje (especially In the Skin of a Lion, The English Patient and Coming Through Slaughter) Green Grass, Running Water by Thomas King As I Lay Dying by William Faulkner Sidhartha by Herman Hesse The Museum Guard (can't remember the author) Funny Boy by Shyam Selvadurai (sorry I don't think that's quite how you spell it) The Sweet Hereafter Alright I could go on forever so I'm going to stop now but I'd like to say that I very much agree with Rachel and mcee's suggestions as well. - -Robin Jill Friedman wrote: > >suggestions > >on some good authors and/or books in the range of literary fiction. > > I'd have to say Kurt Vonnegut is fabulous. I suggest reading "Welcome to the > Monkey House" first. It's a collection of short stories, so you can get used to > his writing style. (it's pretty out-there) In his books, there's always mention > of a few characters in his Universe. It's good to read the short stories first > so you can get a sense of those characters before you read his other stuff. I > read Slaughterhouse Five first, but I found I appreciated it much more on a > re-read after I'd read more of his stuff. > -J > The Leopard Lady > "People shouldn't be judged by the color of their skin. They should be judged > on important things like their taste in music!"-Murphy Brown > "She's too short to play me."-Joey Potter > Too short to play herself in a movie ------------------------------ Date: 03 Jun 2000 06:42:10 GMT From: mocksie@aol.com (Mysterious Mocksie) Subject: Re: OT: Authors ... here's the favorites of a recent English grad- William S. Burroughs- anything. Gabriel Garcia Marquez- short stories Ayn Rand- Anthem ? Hardy- Jude the Obscure Johann Goethe- The Sorrows of Young Werther Steinbeck- Of Mice and Men My best bet would be to just go to Barnes and Nobles and pick out a Norton Anthology. I like Short Stories, meself :) - -Shan "By a stream of running water, I heard you laugh. I closed my eyes for an hour and a half, and tried to make you appear. I swear in the beauty of the setting sun, you were here." ~Moxy Fruvous~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 00 20:25:24 EST From: HomeHelp@oiio.fsnet.co.uk Subject: Attention: Homeowners & Soon To Be Homeowners Hit reply to be removed. Homeowners, let the power of the internet work for you. Fill in our quick loan request form and you will get competitive mortgage quotes from 3 of over 150 lenders signed up for our service. When lenders compete you win. Cash back refinances No Equity 2nd Trust Deeds Debt Consolidation No Income Verification The most competitive interest rates! Lenders are standing by, ready to approve your loan today! They will contact you, often minutes after filling in the form or when it's best for you. Visit this site: http://204048631/?SP0602 (If web site doesn't come right up, please try back later) - -Save Time - -Save Money - -Save Aggravation There is NEVER any fee to consumers for using this service. _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Copyright © 1999, 2000 eWorld Marketing, Inc. 1-888-418-2575. This is not a solicitation or offer to lend money. eWorld Marketing is not a lender, broker or other financial intermediary. We provide marketing services to the mortgage industry. _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:20:47 GMT From: "Jason From Delaware" Subject: Re: I am selling computers and components for CHEAP !!! 5196 Well, Did he??! "Adam Prestin" wrote in message news:8F47E504Alupinnospambiteynet@167.206.112.102... > rrowan@xsinet.co.za wrote in <393865e4.0@news1.mweb.co.za>: > > >Please e-mail me and I will send you a quote. I will beat any price you > >have been given. > > > >TRY ME !!!! > > > >My e-mail address is: rrowan@xsinet.co.za > > > > > > I was offered an AMD Athlon 700 for $5. Beat that. > > -adam > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 15:05:10 GMT From: vika@attglobal.net (Vika Zafrin) Subject: Re: OT: Sean Altman in VH1 Undiscovered contest! Spake nmcgrath@world.std.com (Nancy McGrath): >You can vote for Sean @ >http://www.vh1.com/undiscovered/undiscovered_solo.jhtml And in the vocal groups category of that same contest, you can vote for Five O'Clock Shadow! :) - -v - -------- Vika Zafrin -------- vika@attglobal.net -------- http://www.brown.edu/Research/Decameron "Age does not bring wisdom. Often it changes simple stupidity into arrogant conceit." - R. Heinlein ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:37:46 GMT From: nmcgrath@world.std.com (Nancy McGrath) Subject: OT: Sean Altman in VH1 Undiscovered contest! Sean Altman, who opened for Moxy Fruvous at the WestBeth Theater, and who co-wrote "Your Town No More" with Jian, is a semi-finalist in the Solo Artist category of VH1's IUndiscovered contest. You can vote for Sean @ http://www.vh1.com/undiscovered/undiscovered_solo.jhtml Multiple votes are allowed, so vote for him early and often!! Be sure to check out the sound clip of his recording of "Dick About Me" from Sean's upcoming album, "alt.mania." And if you're within reach of New York City, come be part of an Event: VH1 will be shooting Sean's Arlene Grocery gig on Thursday, June 15 at 9pm sharp. Arlene Grocery is at 95 Stanton St., one block south of Houston between Orchard and Ludlow. And best of all, it's $free. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:22:38 GMT From: "Jason From Delaware" Subject: Re: yes, i was just wearing a scarf Hmm... Sounds a lot like the Grateful Dead Show RFK, Spring 1995... <> fun sporting my bandanna as a shirt last night. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:19:10 -0400 From: lawrence solomon Subject: The Vault show, 6/2/00 first a setlist, then a review and comments down from above laika too careful heatseeker boy sad girl lazy boy kick in the ass pisco boo time disco b'ville jockey bj guinea pig i will hold on fell in love get in the car your new boyfriend psycho killer - --------- michigan militia - --------- believe if only they left out tureen/sauce due to time constraints, and the setlist had the Drinking Song as the final encore, but they replaced it with If Only. after Laika, they went into a long improv about Human Sacrifice (not TMBG's "I've Learnt the Value of Human Sacrifice," though) and indicated that an audience member would be sacrificed by the end of the show. (sadly, they did not follow through with that promise) before Sad Girl, Jian told a story about making the video, where it turned out that the "star actress" was an ex-girlfriend of his and had a way of telling the story that was much more amusing than I can relate here. so, uh, get the tape eventually. :) Kick in the Ass was... interesting... to say the least. "People telemarketing, calling during supper... I'll find who did it, they'll... show me their face!" Later, in Boo Time, we got a second verse of "When every wanker's wound up tight, *still* frigid, fractious..." Disco Bargainville was really fun. It took them about three tries to get the intro, and during the second one, someone yelled out "Four! Seven!" after everyone had yelled two. This led into the reprise of Kick in the Ass. "That guy who shouted in Video Bargainville... he gets a Kick in the Ass..." They finally did get through the song, ending it with the "No No No Raja" line. Jockey was a nice surprise, and Dave got "stuck" at the keyboard for it. Mike was still in his Disco B'Ville position, and Dave walked over to try to get the accordion but was completely blocked, so we heard it with some great piano backing instead (it still sounded great! :) BJ was a very pleasant surprise. For the entire intro, I wasn't sure if it was going to be BJ or Splatter. The last line had something to do with Cal Ripken...... Jr. Fell in Love. Fell in Love. that's all I have to say. Fell in Love. wow. They did Right Wing Shit with a slightly different intro... "The problem is... my ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend... is Rudy Guiliani!" Psycho Killer had *many* false starts. Lots of clapping... Believe was introduced using the Fly intro of "it's about a breakup," and "If you've ever had someone break up with you, then GOOD!" :) the sound was MUCH better than Thursday. and the Vault seemed to do a decent job of not making a huge amount of noise during the set (especially Fell in Love, where everything was *silent* except for the guys) - -- lawrence solomon * http://www.fruhead.com/users/zaph * zaph@fruhead.com "And I don't know whether I believe in me, but I still believe in my friends." -The Nields ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 12:09:33 -0400 From: chad schrock Subject: Re: ammf traffic Marie-Claude Danis wrote: > Melanie wrote: > > Whenever I feel I'm not getting the expected number of > > messages, I check out ammf through deja.com. It's > > cumbersome, but it's a way to figure out if the mailing > > list has gone flooey (again). > > See, I've spent a lot of effort trying to get away from Deja, > both for ammf and another group I'm in... I'll suck it up and > just hope my newsready bucks up. Heh. deja sucks monkey butts. However, you might want to try remarq.com. I've found Remarq to be rather quick and much less annoying than deja when I go hunting for old articles or feel the need for a tacky web interface to Usenet. chad - -- chad at radix dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 12:30:48 EDT From: LilacGirl1002@aol.com Subject: Re: OT: Authors In a message dated 6/3/2000 2:17:32 AM Central Daylight Time, mocksie@aol.com writes: << ? Hardy- Jude the Obscure >> Thomas Hardy wrote Jude the Obscure. Kurt Vonnegut is a good choice, although I have not read a whole lot of his works. I also like DH Lawrence, the poetry of Lawrence Ferlinghetti and Alan Ginsberg. Dharma Bums by Jack Kerouac is really cool. Stay away from Mary Gordon, she's scary!!! If you've not read Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, you should. It's non-fiction but it's a really good story, and the book is TONS!!!!! better than the movie, the movie was REALLY bad. Radio Free Albemuth by Phillip K Dick Catcher in the Rye by JD Salinger Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald If you are looking for easy non-taxing stuff, try books by Alexandra Ripley, fairly interesting books about the South during Reconstruction. I would also recommend the Hitchhiker's trilogy by Douglas Adams. I call it non-taxing because the social satire and commentary is really buried under a whole lot of fun. Simply an enjoyable series, although I've met the man in life and he is an ass. Betsy, the english major who refuses to read during the summer. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 12:41:23 -0400 From: chad schrock Subject: Re: The Ovulation Tango.... Jason From Delaware wrote: > > Entropy.... Or the Mitosis Waltz... Man, I kinda like these > science songs.. > > Maybe the Ovulation Tango is next... That gives a whole new meaning to "the rythym method". - -- chad at radix dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 12:39:55 -0400 From: chad schrock Subject: Re: Herndon 6/1/00 setlist lawrence solomon wrote: > they did a fun improv after Minnie the Moocher that included > a bit of "In Herndon" to the tune of "On Broadway." ("They say > the midway lights are bright... in Herndon.") > > comments about the library the doubled as a planetarium (there > was a library near the concert area and it had a giant domed > roof) comments about it being a placebo It is also a fortnightly library. Those crazy people in Fairfax county... > ("For those who don't know, a placebo is a building without > any books in it.") "And ask your parents what a 'vomitorium' is." > I thought it was very odd to hear Substitute at the end (the > other times I've heard it it's been the opener) but it was > good to hear it... Maybe it was my meds, but the show started off kind of 'eh' (muted and trying to take off, but not quite getting the wheels off the runway) but sometime around Moon they achieved takeoff and then ended in a firey 'BOOM' over Dranseville[1]. > The sound system could have been a lot better, though... the > acoustic guitar sounded really terrible during some songs > (like Nuits) and all of Guinea Pig. Ick. [1] - those were the fireworks, hon. - -- chad at radix dot net Don't 'dis the imagery. I'm sick and I'll come and cough on you. ------------------------------ Date: 03 Jun 2000 18:48:09 GMT From: bbwminors@aol.com (BBWMinors) Subject: Re: The Vault show, 6/2/00 AAAAAAAAUUUUUUGGGGGGGHHH. Fell In Love. And I missed it. And I could have been there.Serves me right. Bad me. ------------------------------ Date: 03 Jun 2000 18:46:10 GMT From: serra44@aol.comantispam (Jill Friedman) Subject: Douglas Adams WAS-Re: OT: Authors >Douglas Adams. I call it non-taxing >because the social satire and commentary is really buried under a whole lot >of fun. Simply an enjoyable series, although I've met the man in life and he is an ass. Yes he is, although I believe he had reason to be when I met him. He was doing a signing for the computer game he helped create called Starship Titanic. The signing was at the Virgin Megastore in NYC, and I expected *hordes* of people. So I got there early. No one was there. By the time he arrived, there was maybe 20 people there. It was ridiculous, and he was very angry. As well he should have been, though- the event was really poorly publicized. - -J The Leopard Lady "People shouldn't be judged by the color of their skin. They should be judged on important things like their taste in music!"-Murphy Brown "She's too short to play me."-Joey Potter Too short to play herself in a movie ------------------------------ Date: 03 Jun 2000 19:03:00 GMT From: mocksie@aol.com (Mysterious Mocksie) Subject: Re: The Vault show, 6/2/00 You missed it at New Haven CT too :) hee "By a stream of running water, I heard you laugh. I closed my eyes for an hour and a half, and tried to make you appear. I swear in the beauty of the setting sun, you were here." ~Moxy Fruvous~ ------------------------------ Date: 03 Jun 2000 19:02:35 GMT From: mocksie@aol.com (Mysterious Mocksie) Subject: Re: OT: Authors >Catcher in the Rye by JD Salinger How could I forget this one?It's my favorite book... im in the middle of reading it... for the 6th time :) "By a stream of running water, I heard you laugh. I closed my eyes for an hour and a half, and tried to make you appear. I swear in the beauty of the setting sun, you were here." ~Moxy Fruvous~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 15:32:56 -0400 From: Mike Wood Subject: Re: The Fru-Tang Clan? Marie-Claude Danis wrote: > > Jaymz Bee's wuname is 'Radiophonic Oddity'. Now how right on is THAT! :) even more-right than Kurt Swinghammer being "Alarmingly-Named Wolfman" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 15:05:31 -0400 From: MJ Subject: pork tenderloin lyrics, anybody? I could have sworn that I saw the lyrics to Pork Tenderloin somewhere online, but I no longer remember *where*. I've searched FDC and just about every other plausible location online, to no avail... I'd appreciate any help (esp. by the end of this weekend!!). ~truztno1 ------------------------------ Date: 03 Jun 2000 20:10:11 GMT From: fruvousgirl@aol.comedy.hour (Angela) Subject: Re: The Vault show, 6/2/00 hopefully this is a sign that it will appear more often on setlists!!! but not too often, it just wouldnt be so special. Ang ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 21:28:44 GMT From: Marie-Claude Danis Subject: Re: The Fru-Tang Clan? Mike Wood wrote: > > Marie-Claude Danis wrote: > > > > Jaymz Bee's wuname is 'Radiophonic Oddity'. Now how right on is THAT! :) > > even more-right than Kurt Swinghammer being "Alarmingly-Named Wolfman" Oh really. Hee. Now that's entertaining. mcee ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 18:56:47 EDT From: SugarFly26@aol.com Subject: Re: OT: Authors I had to read Catcher in the Rye for sophomore English..I think it sorta lost something because I had to read it, but it's really good anyway. My recommendations are A Severed Wasp by Madeleine L'Engle...basically anything by Madeleine L'Engle actually. Also Interview With the Vampire by Anne Rice, or the Golden Compass by....uhh...I forgot. That all from me for now. g/g! - -----------> Ln ------------------------------ Date: 03 Jun 2000 23:38:35 GMT From: lisardbeth@aol.com (LISARDBETH) Subject: Re: pork tenderloin lyrics, anybody? The song's on the 'C' Album, and the lyrics are inside! I just got it at the Folk Fest at Elmer, and it's Great BTW. if your not fortunate enough to be able to get this soon, E-mail me (LISARDBETH@aol.com) and i'll gladly send them to ya - -Lizzy (the artist chick) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 23:09:38 GMT From: neil@nospam.flipse.com (Neil Bardhan) Subject: Re: OT: Authors http://demon.ceh.servtech.com/Jhu/books.htm has a list of recommended reading, that 5 or so friends & I pulled together last summer, when we left camp... Neil Neil Bardhan: neil@flipse.com | PGP user http://demon.ceh.servtech.com | Scrawny Ferret Be careful when you follow friends into battle. If you need to, remove NOSPAM from my address. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 00:39:10 GMT From: "Randall Prince" Subject: Herndon 6/2 and/or Baltimore 6/3 Anyone who has tapes/mp3s/cds of these shows or will be able to procure them, please mail me. I went to them both and I am especially looking for the encore from Baltimore show when they did the rendition of "Believe" (the cher song). Please help! - -Randy Prince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 18:40:47 -0700 (PDT) From: kyla Subject: Re: OT: Authors - --- SugarFly26@aol.com wrote: > I had to read Catcher in the Rye for sophomore English..I think it > sorta lost > something because I had to read it, but it's really good anyway. My > recommendations are A Severed Wasp by Madeleine L'Engle...basically > anything > by Madeleine L'Engle actually. Also Interview With the Vampire by > Anne Rice, > or the Golden Compass by....uhh...I forgot. That all from me for now. > g/g! > > -----------> Ln The Golden Compass is by Philip Pullman. Its sequel, The Subtle Knife, is also really good, and there is meant to be a third book in that series coming sometime. Also, Franny and Zooey (by J.D. Saliger) is really good, but it's more of a book that you have to think about to think it is good than one with an interesting plot or whatever. I read it this year in English, and no tmany people liked it. It's actually one of my favourites, now. I've recently begun to get into Robert Heinlein books, too. They're kinda wierd, but really interesting, especially Stranger in a Strange Land. - --Kyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: 03 Jun 2000 23:47:25 GMT From: lisardbeth@aol.comnojunk (Lis Boriss) Subject: Appel Farm Folk Fest!!! Hey all! I'm new here, just thought I'd write and gush about how great the Festival was! The Lads were great, of course. My first time seeing Jian with the new hair cut ;^) lookin good! And don't worry Mike. I'm sure there is a cure for your seeing dead people problem. oh yes, and after the show me and Lauren and... hmm, i honestly don't know the 3rd girl's name, i should asked. but anyway, we were Lauren's possy and we walked to the autograph stand with 3/4 of moxy fruvous! (goodness Dave, where were you?) Lauren gave the 2 birthday boys a card ;^) I signed it, too! in silver! And I got Jian's picture with Bender's lil sis, Hilary. I have Hilary a tattoo. And I heard they all liked it ;^) Jian wanted me to give him one!! I'm sooooo sorry I had to leave early Jian, or I would have. Maybe next show, huh? Well, my buds Steph and Bender are going to the private show tomorow (the lucky dogs). You know what, I am way to hyper.... maybe it was the onion rings i had ont eh way home... laced with crack, i betcha. oh well. I'll go Listen to 'C' now. - -Lissy (the artist chick) www.lisardbeth.homepad.com "The older you get, the more you learn to see what you've been taught to see. When you're a kid, you see what's there."-- Steven Wright ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 03:06:19 GMT From: lupin@REMOVETHISbitey.net (Adam Prestin) Subject: Re: OT: Sean Altman in VH1 Undiscovered contest! nmcgrath@world.std.com (Nancy McGrath) wrote in : >Sean Altman, who opened for Moxy Fruvous at the WestBeth Theater, and who >co-wrote "Your Town No More" with Jian, is a semi-finalist in the Solo >Artist category of VH1's IUndiscovered contest. >You can vote for Sean @ >http://www.vh1.com/undiscovered/undiscovered_solo.jhtml >Multiple votes are allowed, so vote for him early and often!! /me breaks out the perl voting script (just kidding. one a day) >Be sure to check out the sound clip of his recording of "Dick About Me" >from Sean's upcoming album, "alt.mania." WHEN?!?!? >And if you're within reach of New York City, come be part of an Event: VH1 >will be shooting Sean's Arlene Grocery gig on Thursday, June 15 at 9pm >sharp. Arlene Grocery is at 95 Stanton St., one block south of Houston >between Orchard and Ludlow. And best of all, it's $free. Hehe.. i was just at a taping for FOCS.. I must admit I have a newfound respect for VH1 for having sean altman, five o'clock shadow, AND rye in their talent search.. All three of these artists are incredible and should be checked out at first chance. - -adam ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V4 #249 ********************************************