From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V4 #210 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Sunday, May 7 2000 Volume 04 : Number 210 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Americanism again [mthropearl@aol.com (MthrOPearl)] Re: Americanism again [MJ ] Re: Americanism again [Robin Kent ] Re: more weird dreams... [Rigel-7 ] OT: school systems Was:Re: Americanism again [spin0za1@aol.commmm (Spin0z] Re: Ordering "C" Album [Marie-Claude Danis ] Re: OT: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=FChead?= Commune [Marie-Claude Danis ] Re: Ordering "C" Album [serra44@aol.comantispam (Jill Friedman)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 06 May 2000 15:22:37 GMT From: mthropearl@aol.com (MthrOPearl) Subject: Re: Americanism again >So, yes, American history was all about american history (and I don't >remember much about it other than watching a horribly graphic movie about >the Donner party!). >But to actually answer your question, yes, my Canadian history course did >branch into american history (but I must stress that it is really on a >teacher-teacher basis how the course is taught - so other people may have >had a different experience). My teacher's view was that you need to know >what was going on in the States to understand what was happening in Canada. Thanks for mentioning some good points. First, Canadians seem to have a much better grasp of the inter connectedness of thier history to that of others, while those of us from the US think that it's all about "US" hey, I just realized, maybe that's really our major malfunction, we think think in terms of US so much that subconciously, it is all about us. O.K, it's goin to be an absurd day, I'll just go with the flow, here. But to attempt to become serious and coherant again, your post also speaks to what may symbolize a larger factor in Canadian vs. U.S. education. Not only do they include the histroy or their nearest neighbor, where as we tend to think, "big, cold wasteland with Mounties and training camp for US hockey teams", which obviously is a grass oversimplification. People always forget all the musicians and actors and the occasional News Anchor that tend to drift down to us from the frozen tundra. It also seems that Canadian teachers are encouraged to adapt the core curriculum to their students needs and to enhance and shape it using thier own experteese and judgment. Unfortunately, a trend in US education lately is to focus on test scores, test taking techniques and sticking to core curriculum to be sure that all students are perpared to be tested on the same info. (and I'm mainly talking form an elementary perspective, here, guys, but I hear Jr. & Sr. Highs are even worse). When you insert administrators between teachers and their students to such a great extent, you get a dead, lack-luster curriculum, which, even if some Cananian facts were added to it, would ill serve the average student. So, in closing, I'll just say, "Donner, party of 7." Last spring, my family took an extensive trip across much of the US and the Donner Pass was one of our stops, well, actually, we just stopped long enough for lunch, but we have a sick sense of humor. "Dommer., party of 6." But , really, I would recommend this type of trip to anyone who has some time, at least two to three weeks, and the more off-road and on trail you can get, the better. "Donner, party of 5." Next year, we plan to make our way across southern Canada, by way of Wash. State and BC. "Donner, party of 4." Well, gotta go now, the crown feels like it's getting into an ugly mood, who knows why? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 14:56:28 -0400 From: MJ Subject: Re: Americanism again MthrOPearl wrote: > Unfortunately, a trend in US education lately is to > focus on test scores, test taking techniques and sticking to core curriculum > to be sure that all students are perpared to be tested on the same info. (and > I'm mainly talking form an elementary perspective, here, guys, but I hear Jr. & > Sr. Highs are even worse). When you insert administrators between teachers > and their students to such a great extent, you get a dead, lack-luster > curriculum... Ok... going even more off topic, I'm gonna have to comment on this- I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but all the people I've heard making comments like that have been people who love those artsy-craftsy projects- those projects that are supposed to stimulate all 7 (??? y'know, that Howard Gardner (sp?) or whatever stuff) intelligences, but instead end up into a complete waste of time, money, and intelligent minds... I'm all for helping each individual student as much as possible, but most definately not for teaching to the average student in every classroom! This leads to the question, "But what about the above-average students?" Sure, if the average is the majority, we should teach at the average level for majority's sake, right? WRONG. Teaching at the average level to the average student doesn't do much to help them learn to their full capacity- looking at some of my "average" peers and from my own personal experience, I'd have to say that teaching down to someone isn't the best way for them to learn. Raise the bar a little, and challenge *them* to meet the goal. Just because they've gotten Cs in the past doesn't mean you have to treat them like they're 5 years younger than they really are- if they don't want to make the extra effort, in most cases for the average student, it's more than not fair that they're dragging everyone else down to new levels of mediocrity with them. I understand (esp. at the elementary school level) that we don't want to permanently damage anyone's self-esteem here, but let's face it, eventually, no one's going to stop forever for you and wait for you to catch up. This is the reason why that once you reach middle/high school, there are 'honors' courses and the like- so students who wish to and have the ability to excel, can. It's not like the average students aren't given an opportunity, but rather, they are placed in an environment that may be better for them. To sum it all up, I guess I'm just trying to point out to those who emphasize teaching down to the "average" level to *everybody* that if we did that, society would go absolutely nowhere... we'd end up back in the dark ages. ~truztno1 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 19:34:00 GMT From: Robin Kent Subject: Re: Americanism again MJ wrote: > Ok... going even more off topic, I'm gonna have to comment on this- I'm not sure if > this is what you meant, but all the people I've heard making comments like that > have been people who love those artsy-craftsy projects- those projects that are > supposed to stimulate all 7 (??? y'know, that Howard Gardner (sp?) or whatever > stuff) intelligences, but instead end up into a complete waste of time, money, and > intelligent minds... I'm all for helping each individual student as much as > possible, but most definately not for teaching to the average student in every > classroom! Actually although I'm Canadian and therefore cannot speak for the American education system I think what MthrOPearl was talking about is very similar to what is beginning to happen to schools in Ontario due to the Harris govt's reforms. There is a very specific curriculum with an exact time and duration for each unit (i.e.. Sept. week 1 teach arithmetic, week 2 fractions etc.) and at the end of the year there is a test to ensure that the kids have learned all of those basic skills. This is a good thing in the sense that it's important that kids have the basic knowledge required to move on to the next level so you don't get a whole bunch of kids that get to high school and can't spell etc. The problem with this system though is that it does exactly what you are arguing against. It teaches kids only the minimum amount and does not allow teachers to expand their teaching in a particular area if that particular class is really good at the subject or to slow down on a subject that the class is having trouble with. Also, teachers don't have time to do special projects or topics of study (on top of the regular curriculum) because the regulations say that they have to teach a particular thing at a particular time. I think it is pretty evident that a myriad of problems can arise from this type of restriction. In the end, none of the kids either those who are "average" or "advanced" or "special needs" benefit from this type of system. Also you run into the problem that some kids just aren't good a tests and their test results don't necessarily reflect their abilities. There is then further from that the problem that at the same time there is a cut back in funding, teachers etc. for special needs and enrichment programs so all of these things put together do in fact lead to a much less educated/stimulated population.-Robin (aka Robinfeesh) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 12:31:34 -0700 From: Rigel-7 Subject: Re: more weird dreams... :) Don't feel that weird. I myself have had a couple of really random somehow Fruvous-related dreams. There was actually one where the lads and a large group of people were standing on a...mountainside I think it was. Upstate NY-ey. Then they announced that "the" show would start in 20 minutes, and suddenly everyone started running down the mountain. There was s'more of this randomness. :) Just letting you know that you're not the only one. :) Liam * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ------------------------------ Date: 06 May 2000 20:59:33 GMT From: spin0za1@aol.commmm (Spin0za1) Subject: OT: school systems Was:Re: Americanism again Re: Honors programs... Okay, this is going off a bit more... sorry... I've been in "gifted" classes my whole life. I mean literally Kindergarten to now. From The Astral program to Magnet to Stuyvesant Specialized Math and Science high school. And while we don't have the problems of the government curriculums (it's taken as a given that we cover the state requirements and beyond...) we do have the problem that the school curriculum is all taught to us in one way. Stuyvesant is a test-based school as were the other programs I've been in. Now let me tell you about nerd camp... or CTY as Johns Hopkins calls it... CTY is a summer program, again, for "gifted" students grades 7-11. There is an SAT requirement for admission. The idea is that we sign up for a course which we take classes in for a three week session. Classes are 7 hours a day mon-fri including a two hour study hall after dinner sun-thurs. We are not ALLOWED to do classwork outside the classroom. All "homework" is done in study hall. The humanities classes are not test based. We were given quizzes occasionally, but mostly we wrote essays and reports and gave presentations. We weren't given grades unless we needed them for school placement... we successfully completed the course or we didn't, and we both gave and recieved evaluations at the end. I learned more from my 8 courses there than I have in any of my highschool classes... and had an amazing time, made wonderful friends, played frisbee... it was an overall wonderful experience. Now let me tell you about the CTY math program which was used in my junior high... we were essentially given a book and told to learn. The teacher sat at the front of the room to answer questions but we were essentially left to our own devices to learn the material. When we finished a chapter we would go to the teacher and ask for the chapter test which we would then take in the back of the room. If we passed we moved on. If not, we went back over the chapter again. The program didn't work for everyone and those who fell behind were put into a regular math class with a teacher that taught... but for more than half of us the program was a godsend. I'd been horrible at classroom mathematics since 2nd grade when my teacher told me I was stupid and sent me to the resource room... but with the CTY program I kept up and aced nearly every test! I even jumped ahead a year's worth of credit. I entered highschool in sophomore math and a few of my friends excelled to the point that they were ready for calculus upon entering their freshman year of highschool. Okay... but then highschool was the same as elementary school... I was seated in a room with a teacher spitting numbers at me. It didn't work. I couldn't learn math that way. I fell behind again and failed precalculus in my junior year. What's my point? My point is that this isn't that hard to figure out! Different students learn differently and there ARE relatively simple ways of accomodating them! It was done beautifully in my PUBLIC junior high school (the only thing that WAS done beautifully there) and yet the school boards and school administrators continually refuse to aknowledge that there are better ways of doing things than their "time honored system" which has failed countless students who have been made to feel worthless because they learn differently! So that's my little rant on the school system. "To believe that knowledge is ignorance is noble. To believe that ignorance is knowledge is evil." - -unknown "You'll have to lose your mind before you can come to your senses!" - -Socrates, Way of the Peaceful Warrior Gella ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 22:15:27 GMT From: Marie-Claude Danis Subject: Re: Ordering "C" Album Loren writes: > They sold out a while back. The inventory has been reduced quite > noticeably lately - no more hats, orange or green tank tops, pins, > burgundy web tees... However, we welcome to the merch family the brand-spankin-new powder blue tank top, certain to break hearts and lighten wallets. mcee, trivial. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 22:06:11 GMT From: Marie-Claude Danis Subject: Re: OT: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=FChead?= Commune Spin0za1 wrote: > > >Kate Leahy wrote: > >> > >> >sorry, just seen too many flame wars. > >> > >> Heh. I love when people think that flame wars actually *occur* here :). > > > >Shut the hell up, Katie. Man, such an idiot. Where do you get all this > >crap that you spout out of your ignorant mouth? Sheesh. Get a life. > > > > - Chad > > > >PS This is a test > > You bastard! How could you say those awful things to Katie??? You go to hell! > You go to hell and you die! :) > > haha, Mr. Hat yelled at you! Yeah, what she said. Um... *clears throat* Go to Hell and Get my Dollar! mcee ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 22:03:33 GMT From: Marie-Claude Danis Subject: Re: Another Fru-Free Folk Fest... Josh Drury wrote: > > Well, judging by the latest tour dates, the Fru will be yet again > missing the Winnipeg Folk Fest, despite the fact that they say they'll > try to make it to the next Folk Fest nearly every time they swing > through here. Now, as fate would have it, the Tragically Hip happen to > be playing a concert on that weekend merely 8 hours away in > Minneapolis. So... Should I stay (for the Folk Fest minus Fruvous) or > should I go (on a rather long road trip to see another of my favourite > bands)? Decisions, decisions... Oh, I would go to the WFF. The Nields and Dar Williams and a bunch of other cool artists are playing. I'm in Toronto and *I* want to go :) mcee ------------------------------ Date: 07 May 2000 03:47:19 GMT From: serra44@aol.comantispam (Jill Friedman) Subject: Re: Ordering "C" Album >However, we welcome to the merch family the brand-spankin-new powder >blue tank top, certain to break hearts and lighten wallets. D'oh! It'll certainly lighten mine... ; ) (I *love* my army green one, but I'm a blue girl at heart. No hentai anime jokes, please.) - -J writing a song called the Ballad of Jill V. Fruhead Ji-Murray person The Leopard Lady "She's too short to play me."-Joey Potter Too short to play herself in a movie ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V4 #210 ********************************************