From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #837 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Tuesday, September 21 1999 Volume 03 : Number 837 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: 2nd Conan song? ["Ken Perschke" ] Re: Jian's rejections (was: What I have determinded...) ["Novac" ] Re: second Conan song [wrigley337@aol.com (Chrissy)] Re: *itinerary* [NovFraggle@aol.com] Re: Questions about banter [Melanie ] Re: Arab names [Raenfaerie@aol.com] Re: 2nd Conan song? (fwd) [Raenfaerie@aol.com] Re: Alternative Interpretations [Melanie ] Banter, Continued [Melanie ] Re: Food for thought on Tapers [Frances Meale ] Banter, Continued [Lynne ] Re: *itinerary* ["Gramcracker" ] Re: Question about banter (really long) [truztno1 ] Re: second Conan song [jonnnn27@aol.com---- (Jonnnn27)] Re: *itinerary* [srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com)] Re: *itinerary* [Mike Wood ] Re: second Conan song [ctyner@my-deja.com (Adam Tyner)] Re: 2nd Conan song? (fwd) [srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot ] Re: confusing letters ["Cara (Laika) Kozack" ] Re: *itinerary* [Lawrence P Solomon ] Re: *itinerary* [bbwminors@aol.com (BBWMinors)] Re: second Conan song ["Kate Leahy" ] Re: second Conan song [Wakko Ellington Warner-Warner III ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:45:09 -0400 From: "Ken Perschke" Subject: Re: 2nd Conan song? > > We heard publicly that the lads will do Splatter, Splatter (SS) on > Conan, what do you think song two will be? Assuming the > record companies don't insist/dictate IWHO for purely promotional > reasons (single release, etc), what do you think *the lads* > choice will be? > Does anybody else think it would be cool for them to do something really weird and obscure. My vote would go for something like Marion Fruvous or (if you want to get really extreme), Sad Today. Now, I certainly know they won't do that (wouldn't want to scare people off), but with another song to play around with, I would love to see it! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:00:17 -0400 From: "Novac" Subject: Re: Jian's rejections (was: What I have determinded...) wrote in message news:aa5f0ee3.2518c417@aol.com... > In a message dated 9/21/1999 1:34:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >Oh really, how much rejection can a gal take in one night? -Nov 4.3 rejection-units, that's how much. - --Novac, not to be confused with "Nov"...my evil twin ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 1999 21:13:56 GMT From: wrigley337@aol.com (Chrissy) Subject: Re: second Conan song >> fruvous should play SNL. they'd get to do *two* songs and >> possibly be incorporated into a sketch, and we all know how funny they can >> be, so this would work out extremely well. does anyone else second my >> opinion? maybe we should get a petition of sorts going... hmmm.... > Well, when Barenaked Ladies were on SNL (BNL on SNL ::hee hee::) they only did ONE song and NO sketches. I was bummed. The last people I remember getting two songs was Hanson? Maybe... chrissy "Faith is it's own miracle." -John Irving "A Prayer For Owen Meany" ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 1999 21:26:03 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Re: Food for thought on Tapers Lori slipped up and said: >The example I know of specifically is the show >last fall where they debuted "Grudge". They specifically requested it not be >taped, as it and other songs were works in progress, where she meant to say "They specifically requested that the show not be *distributed*." A different animal entirely. Apologies to the tapers, who did not disregard the band's wishes merely by taping this show! - -- Lori ********************** I have made mistakes in my life that I cannot hide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:24:11 -0400 From: "Kate Leahy" Subject: Re: second Conan song Well, unless the musical guest is really important, they don't usually make it a point to build the show around them. When the Stones are on, they make sure they get two songs. Other people (like BNL) just have to wait and see how well the SNL writers did that week. If they had a lot of really great material, the musical guest loses out. Also, I think it'll be a long time before Früvous ever gets on SNL. BNL was only on after they had a number one, top 40 single. I personally think they're far better suited to Conan . . . I don't really think much of musical guest appearances on SNL. It's great for exposure, but it really only means that you've got a hit single. ~~Kate - -- Kate Leahy kleahy@loyola.edu katiewow@fruhead.com *********************************** "It's a long long road It's a big big world We are wise wise women We are giggling girls . . . " - --Ani DiFranco *********************************** ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 1999 21:53:41 GMT From: wrigley337@aol.com (Chrissy) Subject: Re: second Conan song >I personally think >they're far better suited to Conan . . . I don't really think much of >musical guest appearances on SNL. I agree. oh, and another thing I've noticed is that after bands appear on Conan, they get a LOT of recognition (i.e. BNL, Train) But there are also the examples of those who get none after Conan. Alas I have no examples because I don't remember the bands because they're not worth remembering!! Not that it matters to me whether or not Fruvous gets a lot of recognition. I was just commenting! chrissy "Faith is it's own miracle." -John Irving "A Prayer For Owen Meany" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:41:56 GMT From: NovFraggle@aol.com Subject: Re: *itinerary* In a message dated 9/21/1999 1:34:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zaph@fruhead.com writes: << The 9:30 Club's website still lists nothing for the 20th, but it does list shows for the 19th and 21st, so I'd assume it's not booked that night... (as much as I'd rather see them at the Birchmere or something...) -- >> why would you rather the birchmere? You can't even dance there and they have those darn no talking or standing signs on every table. -nov ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 23:08:06 GMT From: Melanie Subject: Re: Questions about banter Lots of the Fruvous banter is inuendo--a dying art among comedians, many of whom haven't figured out that the more graphic they are, the less clever they are. Sure Moxy Fruvous uses the "F" word (sorry Lawrence, I'm a mom). I suppose it would put me off except that they are also exceptionally verbally gifted wits, poets and satirists. Many people seem to use it because it's the highlight of their vocabulary. My 2 cents. melanie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:46:32 GMT From: Raenfaerie@aol.com Subject: Re: Arab names As a student of Arabic, I feel I can safely comment on these: << Wafiqa .......means successful >> Bilqis ..........means Queen of Sheba I prefer Khadija, myself. Yeah, I know it has no "Q". >> Bilqis was the name of the actual queen of Sheba, wife of Solomon. Khadija is the name of the wife of the Prophet Muhammad [1]. Wafiqa ... i suppose you're right on that one. I just dunno. But as for Arabic names with cool letters, try Zahra (beautiful) or Layla (meaning "night", also an Eric Clapton song :). Maryam works well too - heehee. It means mother of Jesus, simply another form of Mary or Miriam. - -mm- [1] UWBP ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:42:11 GMT From: Raenfaerie@aol.com Subject: Re: 2nd Conan song? (fwd) Wait ... this may demonstrate my ignorance in new and innovative ways, but why not? I know that MF's humor is "subversive" etc., but what is difficult [1] about a rampagin fish that steals apple struedel (sp?)? oh well ... some will never understand... :sigh: - -mm- "Now I'm jammin' with Moxy Früvous .... !" << I think PIsco would stick in people heads... and what a tease that they won't be able to get it.. >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:47:39 GMT From: Melanie Subject: Re: Alternative Interpretations Josh Drury wrote: >>I was just in one of my Hydraulic structures lectures today . . .when I was suddenly reminded of the "start off straight but I get to meander" line from Earthquakes, and I realised: wait a minute, that's what all good streams do!<< Josh, I love this! I thought the line had something to do with starting out with the best intentions but getting sidetracked, and then feeling guilty about it. (Each line in the verse lists IMO a guilt-producing situation--but that may just be my own neuroses.) I like the idea that meandering is actually a good and desirable thing. There are certain types of people (like me, for instance--ENFP on the Myers-Briggs scale, not that I want to start all that again) who regularly get sidetracked. I get a lot done, and I'm very creative, but things rarely get done sequentially. In effect, all the pieces will be strewn around until the very last minute when everything comes together beautifully. It drives other types crazy, and I often think my style must be wrong, or more organized styles better. But, hey, it works. I'll take the line from Earthquakes as affirming from now on. melanie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 23:25:25 GMT From: Melanie Subject: Banter, Continued SugarFly wrote: >>We hear it so often, that saying "Fuck you" to someone while being angry or something probably wouldn't get much reaction as a not nice thing to say. << Hm. I guess there are some advantages to curbing one's speech. When I get mad enough to say that, the people around me know that I'm REALLY pissed off. So what do you say that would get a reaction? Wait a minute, maybe I don't want to know. *grin* melanie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:03:25 -0400 From: Frances Meale Subject: Re: Food for thought on Tapers Oi! Vika Zafrin wrote: > Spake Frances Meale , quoting in part Josh > Woodward: > > >> Most of us are doing it>> to preserve the music, and to bring enjoyment to the > many people who end > >> up with copies of the shows. > > > >b) And I'm sure your acts are appreciated by many, but maybe you should consider > >the purpose of a concert, and the reason Fruvous tours constantly (i.e., promoting > >new release, growing fan base) Maybe your activities that evening were to the > >detriment of the band's efforts to attract new fans/sell records. > > Frances, as someone who has known Josh for quite a while and has closely > observed his, and other [usual suspect] tapers' behaviour during Fruvous > shows, I feel I must intercede on his behalf. What you say in the > paragraph above makes no sense in the context of this community, Which doesn't surprise me by the way (meant to be self deprecating) > which > relies heavily on the kindness of people who tape live shows and > archive/distribute them. I know for a fact that Moxy Fruvous > appreciates the archiving work that these people do - otherwise the lads > wouldn't have any record at all of their live shows, which are > oftentimes quite amusing, spontaneous and unique. I totally agree. > As for distribution > of these recordings to fans, well, it's more likely to make new fans > (what was that about people *having* to hear Fruvous live to really > appreciate them?) than to be detrimental to record sales: these > recordings are indeed in a different category from the band's albums. I think you may have misunderstood my point, or perhaps I didn't articulate it clearly. I wasn't referring to taping as a detriment to promoting record sales; rather, it was what I was reading in Josh's words i.e., whiny women. It just seemed, to my ears anyway, a little, shall we say, cavalier. But that was *my* interpretation of his statement; perhaps it was not intended that way, perhaps it was....no matter. > >> Two whiny women who can't even talk to us > >> directly mean absolutely nothing to me when I weigh it against the future > >> benefit to the rest of the community that tapers provide. > > > >c) Hmmmm...I wonder how the band would feel about losing potential record sales > >due to your assessment-especially since many new fans are brought on by people > >having wonderful experiences at live shows. > > New fan or not, Josh's expectation of simple courtesy is not > unreasonable. If you have a problem with your friend's behaviour, do > you go to his/her mother, or to a teacher/person in authority? Well, > you could, but more likely the first person you'd speak to would be your > friend, to see if things could be resolved. Non? Oui, bien sûr! > Why should it be any > different with a stranger? In theory, people should be able to play nice. But personally, I would feel anxious approaching a stranger and saying "you know that thing that took you 20 minutes to do? Well it's obstructing my view" But I would personally feel cheated afterwards because I paid for my ticket like everyone else. And I think it makes a difference if someone is a first timer. How would they know what to expect, vis-à-vis tapers? I didn't! > having seen how much *completely > undeserved* crap tapers get from people, I'm truly sorry to hear that. > I feel he is justified in > feeling the way he does. It just seems odd to me (again, an opinion) that one would put more value on taping a show for posterity than on caring if another person actually present at that show was enjoying it. I think the taping/archiving activities have value, but perhaps it's good not to lose sight of the enjoyment of others actually present at a live show. That's just my perspective. "Ma maison c'est votre maison Entre ces quatre murs de glace Je mets mon temps et mon espace A préparer le feu, la place Pour les humains de l'horizon Et les humains sont de ma race" - -Gilles Vigneault, Mon Pays ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 00:30:37 GMT From: Lynne Subject: Banter, Continued is f**k even a bad word anymore? - -lynne Melanie said: >>We hear it so often, that saying "Fuck you" to someone while being angry or something probably wouldn't get much reaction as a not nice thing to say. << Hm. I guess there are some advantages to curbing one's speech. When I get mad enough to say that, the people around me know that I'm REALLY pissed off. So what do you say that would get a reaction? Wait a minute, maybe I don't want to know. *grin* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:47:25 -0400 From: "Gramcracker" Subject: Re: *itinerary* > >Wed. Nov 24 - Rochester NY > > > WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! > > > Kingston's a wonderful town... why does no one want to come here?! :( Am I the only person on earth the nov.24 in rochester date is reallyreallyreallyreallyreally reallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreally good for? smoochies, meghan - ---- "The future looks like distant thunder 'cause I'm never sure that I'll get paid. And I'm pissed that I'm not gettin' younger, gettin' pretty, gettin' love, gettin' laid." -Moxy Früvous, "Earthquakes" - ----- Meghan Gramcracker is: ICQ# 17903747 http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/4448 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:34:07 -0400 From: truztno1 Subject: Re: Question about banter (really long) Chad Maloney wrote: > truztno1 wrote: > [major snippage of way too gratuitously quotes that needed to be snipped out] whoops, sorry 'bout that! > Dave started to key off the "come in the venue" part, but dropped it (probably > thinking that the dirty joke was ok in his head and borderline at the show). > Jian goaded him into staying with his joke and he did it uncomfortably > and half-assedly. The joke never really came out and the subject was > dropped pretty quickly. > > - Chad Ok, I'm just responding to the whole thread(s) under Chad's post 'cause it's most convenient for me. If it isn't for you, I apologize. In defense of my parents, I'd like to say that again, they aren't *sheltering* me, and I'm absolutely positive that if I came up to them w/ a question of "What does f*** mean?" (and I'm still putting f*** with asterisks until I know that absolutely EVERYBODY's comfortable w/ it. I know most here are, but there have been one or two exceptions.) that's a totally innocent question and I'm not just asking to be mischeivious, that they'd give me a response that's appropriate for my age (i.e., if I was 5, they wouldn't answer as if I 10). When I first mentioned their attitudes towards this whole language issue, it was based on past experience, not necessarily what they would ACTUALLY do at the concert. And who knows, they may feel that yes, I'm old enough to handle it, but that they're not just comfortable with the free usage of expletives, etc., and with me hearing it, or any combination of the above. If anyone has a time machine, please tell me what will happen at the show. And then pass it on to the hands of greedy, eager scientists. <--- {sarcasm} I've also actually warned my mom about their use of language (though I'm not sure she knows how "bad" it is), and my dad is simply interested in the band because they have some interesting social and political views, which is more than most can say for some "mainstream" bands today. If they curse, there'll be nothing I can do about it. To paraphrase what AJ said, "They'll just have to deal with it." And nothing more. I won't be grounded, I won't be yelled at, it'll just be, "I don't like their language," a frown here or there, some discussion, and finis. (Of course, your definition of discussion may vary. Personally, I don't mind my definition.) I'd also like to repeat something that many people have said: (and don't kill me with pitchforks for this, folks- though the AMMF community is the nicest one online that I've ever met, some of use could use a little more patience. Including me. ) it's aaallllll depends upon the context it's (expletives, graphic descriptions) used under. Comprenden? or should I say comprendes? [3] We also like to think of ourselves open-minded here- so please refrain from passing judgement on how my parents raise me. I respect everybody's else's opinions on this, but I'm not going to say, "NO, that's such a stupid idea, why would anyone want to think that?" (Notice, I'm not saying that anyone really did. So don't start flaming me just yet.) My parents also grew up in another culture, in another era, which is/was TOTALLY different from the US one, [1] so you're going to have to understand that although some of the jokes may just be all in good fun and funny enough, they're just NOT going to get it. On another note, many kids in my area start cursing in 5th grade, and some on a regular basis in 6th grade. Some, I am happy to say, have outgrown the novelty of saying f*** every 5 words; others have not. And as kids seem to be getting younger and younger, throwing these words around with (and sometimes without) knowing what these words mean, is pretty distressing (and disgusting) to me. But again, that's JMHO. I know I'm probably boring many people out there with this lengthy commentary, and I also know that I'm not as eloquent as some of my fellow AMMF-ers out there, but please understand as a tiny, remaining portion of these threads does SEEM to involve me (or at least my parents), I had to respond in one form or another. And even if we can't spell or are horrible writers (which is another topic that I'll stay away from), we should at least get the chance to defend ourselves. That done, I'll try to refrain from saying anything else on this subject. I promise I'll TRY. Can't guarantee it! ; ) ~truztno1 (who is talking way too much and should be studying for her bio test instead. Hmmm... I wonder why THAT sounds familiar? ) [1] [2] I was born and have lived in the US for the short period that my life is, though. So there are some differing opinions, but it's a peaceful household. [2] I'm probably doing this wrong, as it is my first footnote (yay!). I'm sure someone will correct me KINDLY, thank you! [3] we could go into a spanish lesson, and whether you guys would count as the formal you (Ud.) or familiar you (tu), and then whether I'm referring to you guys as a group or not, but then people would REALLY flame me. Not good. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 1999 01:06:53 GMT From: jonnnn27@aol.com---- (Jonnnn27) Subject: Re: second Conan song << Conan >> << Fruvous >> hey everybody, i must've missed the first post...when are they gonna be on? ~Jonny~ - ---------------------------------------------------------- "My Hands Clench the Squeegee... My secular rosary..." - ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 1999 01:27:54 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Re: *itinerary* Lawrence plotted: >if I can make a convincing argument to my parents to let our cousins in >Saranac Lake, NY host Thanksgiving Dinner, I'll be going to Rochester and >Ottawa, too. :) Oh doooooo! Steve and I aren't doing Rachacha, but Ottawa's definitely a go -- leave the child with the doting relatives and take off for a long weekend, you betcha! And practically *everyone*'s going to be there ... it's gonna be fabulously cool! - -- Lori, reminding herself to make hotel ressies tomorrow ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:48:09 -0700 From: Mike Wood Subject: Re: *itinerary* \ >Sat Dec 4 Albany, NY Northern Lights... >Fri Dec 31 Buffalo, NY The Tralf WTF... no more tentative-Toronto-date? =[ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 01:10:22 GMT From: ctyner@my-deja.com (Adam Tyner) Subject: Re: second Conan song Or if a couple of sketches run long, they'll make up for the time difference by cutting a song. - -Adam On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:24:11 -0400, "Kate Leahy" wrote: >If they had a lot of really great material, the musical guest loses out. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 1999 01:31:32 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Re: 2nd Conan song? (fwd) The Rainfairy pondered: > what is difficult >[1] about >a rampagin fish that steals apple struedel (sp?)? ><< I think PIsco would stick in people heads... and > what a tease that they won't be able to get it.. >> I think the original poster meant that people couldn't *obtain* the song, as it's not on any studio recording, not that they wouldn't understand it. Hey Rainfairy -- I have some extra rain; if I leave it under my pillow (in a lidded bucket or something I guess) do I get money in exchange? - -- Lori, just wondering. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 02:05:40 GMT From: "Cara (Laika) Kozack" Subject: Re: confusing letters In my class we have a kid with the last name Wasylciw and everybody who is new can't pronounce it. Even though most of us have knew him since kindergarden most of us can't even spell it. My last name isn't that bad but I keep a list of all the different ways it's been misspelled. I think it's at 16 or so. Even my first name has had many ummm...alterations over the years. - -- Cara (Laika) Kozack "It's a reference to a _____ that you've never even heard of by\in a _____ that you probably don't even like." My e-mail at fruomffan@xoommail.com My world at http://www.crosswinds.net/~fruomffan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:13:17 -0400 From: Lawrence P Solomon Subject: Re: *itinerary* NovFraggle@aol.com wrote: > why would you rather the birchmere? You can't even dance there and they have > those darn no talking or standing signs on every table. -nov well, for one, it's rude to talk during their set anyway - there's no rule about talking when no one is on stage. and the 9:30 club sucks for Fruvous. it mostly sucks in general, but specifically it's a terrible venue for them. it's a rock venue. they are not a rock band. I *like* sitting down at shows. It's more comfortable, and they do a "better" set when we're all sitting down and being quiet. - -- Lawrence Solomon * http://www.fruhead.com/users/zaph * zaph@fruhead.com "Just because you're floating doesn't mean * This space inadvertently you haven't drowned." -They Might Be Giants * left blank. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 1999 02:43:24 GMT From: bbwminors@aol.com (BBWMinors) Subject: Re: *itinerary* I have to agree with Lawrence here ... I "did" Moxy at 930 last year and this year at Rams Head ... I've not seen them at the Birchmere but have been there for a few other shows .. I would be willing to trade the opportunity to dance for the opportunity to be comfortable, for one thing, and would give up the "fun" aspect for the acoustics and other perks of a Birchmere-like setting. Not to mention the neighborhood, LOL ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:41:10 -0400 From: "Kate Leahy" Subject: Re: second Conan song >Or if a couple of sketches run long, they'll make up for the time >difference by cutting a song. *nod* So even if a band is *planning* to play a second song, they might not get to do it. Oh, the world of American sketch comedy :). ~~Kate - -- Kate Leahy kleahy@loyola.edu katiewow@fruhead.com *********************************** "It's a long long road It's a big big world We are wise wise women We are giggling girls . . . " - --Ani DiFranco *********************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 02:54:27 GMT From: Wakko Ellington Warner-Warner III Subject: Re: second Conan song Kate Leahy wrote: : Well, unless the musical guest is really important, they don't usually make : it a point to build the show around them. When the Stones are on, they make : sure they get two songs. Other people (like BNL) just have to wait and see : how well the SNL writers did that week. If they had a lot of really great : material, the musical guest loses out. This is the _writers'_ definition of "really great material" we're going by, right? - - A.P. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:37:36 -0400 From: "Kate Leahy" Subject: Re: 2nd Conan song? Well, it would be *interesting*, but I think I'd rather see them play another, completely different type of track from Thornhill - like If Only You Knew, or something. Playing Splatter, Splatter and, say, Pisco would probably only succeed in getting them stuck with the "Humorour A Cappella Folk Group" label in America, too. I think Splatter, Splatter demonstrates they same qualities that Marion Früvous does without the dense imagery and inside-jokery. It's place is at shows, not really on TV. This same debate circled on the BNL group right before they went on SNL. The reminder that kept circling as people said "They should play 'Box Set,' dammit!" and "Wouldn't it totally rock if they played 'The Flag'?" was "They're not on SNL for us. They're on SNL for the person who lives in the woods in Arkansas who's never heard of them. They're also there to sell albums." ~~Kate - -- Kate Leahy kleahy@loyola.edu katiewow@fruhead.com *********************************** "It's a long long road It's a big big world We are wise wise women We are giggling girls . . . " - --Ani DiFranco *********************************** ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #837 ********************************************