From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #836 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Tuesday, September 21 1999 Volume 03 : Number 836 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: 2nd Conan song? [Chad Maloney ] Re: 2nd Conan song? [Lawrence P Solomon ] 2nd Conan song? (fwd) [Lynne ] Re: *itinerary* [Veronica J Gruneberg <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca>] Re: Independance Day [Josh Drury ] Re: second Conan song [LSan497884@aol.com] Re: Food for thought on Tapers ["Mer Mer" ] Re: Food for thought on Tapers [SugarFly26@aol.com] Re: *itinerary* [SugarFly26@aol.com] Re: Food for thought on Tapers [SugarFly26@aol.com] Re: *itinerary* [bbwminors@aol.com (BBWMinors)] Re: Jian's eyes [gingee@my-deja.com] Re: Tory Cassis [nicole.twn.is@ana.ng.at.tmbg.org (Nicole the Wonder Nerd] Re: Question about banter (was Comments on Detroit 9/17) [SugarFly26@aol.] Re: 2nd Conan song? ["A.J. LoCicero" ] Re: Food for thought on Tapers ["Kate Leahy" ] Re: *itinerary* [srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com)] Re: Food for thought on Tapers [srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead] Re: Chicago show review/report! [srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhea] Re: *itinerary* [Lawrence P Solomon ] Re: second Conan song ["The Marvelous Myla Fantastik" ] Re: 2nd Conan song? ["Kate Leahy" ] What I have determinded... ["Novac" ] Re: 2nd Conan song? ["Ken Perschke" ] Re: 2nd Conan song? ["Novac" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:21:34 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: 2nd Conan song? Tamra wrote: > We heard publicly that the lads will do Splatter, Splatter (SS) on > Conan, what do you think song two will be? Assuming the > record companies don't insist/dictate IWHO for purely promotional > reasons (single release, etc), what do you think *the lads* > choice will be? They get two songs? All the musical guests I've seen on talk shows play a song and get their CD held up by the host. Maybe Conan is different. I guess maybe he'll hand the CD to a puppet who can say "This CD is great... for me to poop on" or something. > SS is a given, so what do they do for an encore (assuming > SS is first)? Should it be vintage Fruvous (aka KoS, Authors, > Greatest Man) or purely new (Thornhill)? Serious or light? > Latte or DeCaf???? Hmmmmmmmm...... If they get to play two songs, I'd say bother to write something like the Tent Song for Conan. If it's good enough for FRFF, it's good enough for Conan. Maybe have the Pimpbot 5000 come out and sing along *grin* Honestly, that's what got them big in Canada. Writing topical pieces that people enjoyed. Of course it could also sink them into a hole they don't want to be in... > audience. I would love to see them do Earthquakes... Am I the only one that thinks the live Earthquakes is... well... really weak? The two times I've seen it, the tempo is on the edge of falling apart. - Chad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:16:56 -0400 From: Lawrence P Solomon Subject: Re: 2nd Conan song? Tamra wrote: > We heard publicly that the lads will do Splatter, Splatter (SS) on > Conan, what do you think song two will be? Assuming the > record companies don't insist/dictate IWHO for purely promotional > reasons (single release, etc), what do you think *the lads* > choice will be? do they get to do 2 songs? most of the time I've watched Conan for a band I like, they get to do one song and it's always in the last 5 minutes of the show. I don't think IWHO would really go over that well in that atmosphere - it's not very upbeat and it's acoustic. From what I can tell, most bands that go on Conan do more "rockin'" songs. If they do get to do a second song, I think either Half as Much would be better for getting people's attention, but IWHO would be a better "weed out" song - so that they don't get people who think all their songs are like Splatter Splatter and Half as Much. - -- Lawrence Solomon * http://www.fruhead.com/users/zaph * zaph@fruhead.com "Just because you're floating doesn't mean * This space inadvertently you haven't drowned." -They Might Be Giants * left blank. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:52:46 GMT From: Lynne Subject: 2nd Conan song? (fwd) My vote! Eathquakes cuz it seems quite unique and catchy or my personal all time favorite Pisco.. I think PIsco would stick in people heads... and what a tease that they won't be able to get it.. but maybe, just maybe they would go on a long tedious journey store to store begging.. "pleeease, pleease, you must get this Moxy Fruvous bands CDs..." heehee! - -Lynne Tamra said: SS is first)? Should it be vintage Fruvous (aka KoS, Authors, Greatest Man) or purely new (Thornhill)? Serious or light? Latte or DeCaf???? Hmmmmmmmm...... ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 1999 17:45:02 GMT From: Veronica J Gruneberg <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: *itinerary* Wed. Nov 24 - Rochester NY WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! Kingston's a wonderful town... why does no one want to come here?! :( :( Veronica (back to class for me!) - -- *************************************************************************** "Never look at the trombones, | Veronica Gruneberg it only encourages them." | Dept. of Biology - Richard Strauss | Queen's University | Kingston, Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:38:05 -0500 From: Josh Drury Subject: Re: Independance Day GRiddance1@aol.com wrote: > I love this song Independance day.. I love when Murray Hums at the end.. i > saw him in person and I Melted ! Opening up an old (sorta) question: Why is Independence Day misspelled on the back cover of the Canadian version only? I mean, they had an extra two weeks to fix a mistake that wasn't even on the U.S. release. Anyone? Josh Drury Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:05:02 GMT From: LSan497884@aol.com Subject: Re: second Conan song In a message dated 9/21/99 12:35:29 PM Central Daylight Time, tdeegan1@rochester.rr.com writes: > fruvous should play SNL. they'd get to do *two* songs and > possibly be incorporated into a sketch, and we all know how funny they can > be, so this would work out extremely well. does anyone else second my > opinion? maybe we should get a petition of sorts going... hmmm.... I agree with you! The only late night program that I know (well, I'm not that "up" on -or "for"! - many of them) that lets their musical guests play two songs is SNL. And they WOULD be a riot if they could be involved in a sketch as well. AND more people probably watch SNL than Conan (though recently it's been a little weak. I'm getting a little tired of Molly and that Catholic schoolgirl gig myself). *Lois (Fogeyfru) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:03:43 GMT From: "Mer Mer" Subject: Re: Food for thought on Tapers >From: Ellen >of the taper folk here will correct me if i'm wrong, but everything i >hear about fruvous's policy on taping is kind of ambiguous. they allow >it, they don't really seem to support it, though. on the surface they >don't seem to mind it, but they do make snide remarks about it >occasionally. it'd be nice if they'd make up their minds once and for >all. From what I remember of Frucon2 I believe they stated their feelings on taping. (if i'm wrong please correct me) What I remember them saying is that they are cool with tapers as long as they don't sell the bootlegs for profit. Something along the lines of using the CDs to spread the word of fruvous was really beneficial for the band. Which makes sense to me. In my personal opinion, I think they make remarks about the tapers and bootlegs at concerts just as normal banter. I mean the tapers are there, everyone knows they are there and its easy to make remarks about the tapers/bootlegs. Why not? As I said, I could be wrong on this topic, its just what I remember. If I remember wrongly please feel free to correct me (i know you will correct me if i want you to or not so i better be cool with it). Mer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:32:11 GMT From: SugarFly26@aol.com Subject: Re: Food for thought on Tapers Ellen said: <> Yes, and maybe I'm taking this differently than you meant it, but those specific bands are quite well known, and I'd say, for the most part Fruvous is not. - ------------> Ln ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:04:56 GMT From: SugarFly26@aol.com Subject: Re: *itinerary* Fri Dec 3 Amherst, MA Amherst College Mwahaha...that's near me... - ------------> Ln ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:03:36 GMT From: SugarFly26@aol.com Subject: Re: Food for thought on Tapers Sheesh, I'm having problems here. My dad bought a new computer, so I'll blame it on that for now though it really doesn't have anything to do with it, I bet... :) Sorry, bear with me. :) - ------------> Ln ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 1999 18:33:16 GMT From: bbwminors@aol.com (BBWMinors) Subject: Re: *itinerary* Also, does this mean that the three nights in Southern Cal Oct. 25-27 have become just one night, Oct. 26 at the Troubador??? (And don't even get me started about losing Nov. 20 in DC, boo hoo hoo) ... or is the itinerary posting, perhaps, simply the confirmed-in-stone-and-announcable dates??????? QL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:38:18 GMT From: gingee@my-deja.com Subject: Re: Jian's eyes In article <81802506.251595ff@aol.com>, Blushooz@aol.com wrote: > >> "Sometimes you're the windsheild, sometimes you're the bug." - Unknown > >> > >Written by Mark Knoffler, recorded by Dire Straits, covered by Mary > >Chapin Carpenter. > > but what song was it? just curious. > > ~jess > You just want *all* the info, don't you!? :-) The title is "The Bug". Sorry to have left you in partial suspense, jess! Cheers! gingee Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:28:40 GMT From: nicole.twn.is@ana.ng.at.tmbg.org (Nicole the Wonder Nerd) Subject: Re: Tory Cassis On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:32:56 GMT, someone who looked like cricket5@hotmail.com whispered: >Wow, Susan, what a great offer :) >Folks can also pick it up online at Canadian CD stores such as >absound.com I just need to correct this--I like A & B Sound so much, I'd hate people to get misdirected. It's www.absound.ca (they being Canadian and all), and they're more than an online music retailer--they're a Force Of Good. You say you want Spirit of the West? Arrogant Worms? Great Big Sea's Canada-only releases? Captain Tractor? Some other random Canadian band that apparently nobody but you has ever heard of? They got 'em, they'll ship to the U.S., the turnaround will make your head spin, and prices are in Canadian dollars. - --nicole twn's little plug of the day *** "Some people think I'm neurotic and all, but I'm not; I just like to think about things over and over and over again..."--Eddie From Ohio Visit Nicolopolis! http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~carlsonn Reply-to address is INCORRECT! Think of it as an intelligence test. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:57:35 GMT From: SugarFly26@aol.com Subject: Re: Question about banter (was Comments on Detroit 9/17) Ln also getting re-sucked into this thread by Lois commenting: << The word "fuck" (which is one that makes me uncomfortable) was rarely used in my childhood community (meaning among my friends and adults within my hearing), but is now everywhere. I can foresee it going the way of "damn" and "shit" and "sucks" within the next few years, if it hasn't already. Once the word becomes so common it loses it effect, it won't be a "naughty" word anymore. I'm sure something will come along (or is coming along as we speak!) to replace it. >> I totally agree. Where I live, among people my age, you hear fuck almost every sentence, even trivial sentences like "I dropped my pencil, can you pick it up for me?" becomes "Ah, shit, I dropped my fuckin' pencil, fuckin' pick that up for me (insert swear meant to be teasing a friend, to the effect of beotch, fucker, etc)?" Or "We got fuckin' gym class next, it's so fuckin' queer, I hate fuckin' sports and the teacher's such a fuckin' jock anyway." We hear it so often, that saying "Fuck you" to someone while being angry or something probably wouldn't get much reaction as a not nice thing to say. Sometimes (as in the above cases) it sounds stupid and unnecessary, but sometimes (as in parts of Lowest Highest Point) it sounds okay, or even right, like it should be there. ::shrug:: Just a comment. - ---------------> Ln ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:36:02 GMT From: "A.J. LoCicero" Subject: Re: 2nd Conan song? Chad Maloney wrote: > > Am I the only one that thinks the live Earthquakes is... well... > really weak? The two times I've seen it, the tempo is on the > edge of falling apart. Mmmmm. You might be, Chad. I was thinking the other night how much it kicks ass, how much I STILL love it with banjo, and how I think it is the perfect vehicle for a sing-along chorus. I hope they do it live a lot more. As for the tempo I think it is supposed to be a little loosy goosey. That is part of the point. It isn't slick and produced. It is a very homespun song. A.J. - -- Mariaweb last updated 5/13/99. See Maria Louise in all her... erm... Glory? Visit MariaWeb at http://members.aol.com/marilou99/ _____ _ / ____(_) | | _ ___ ___ _ __ ___ | | | |/ __/ _ \ '__/ _ \ | |____| | (_| __/ | | (_) | \_____|_|\___\___|_| \___/ @wwnet.com ICQ#: 13117113 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:09:26 -0400 From: "Kate Leahy" Subject: Re: Food for thought on Tapers <*snip* stuff about the possible detriment of taping> Though I am not a taper, I felt it necessary to comment on some of the points you've brought up. a) First-timers: We were *all* newbies once. No one is condemning anyone for making mistakes. Though I've never officially met Josh, I know that he has a reputation for being incredibly polite and generally wonderful. For the most part, tapers like Josh will either have someone near them politely ask someone who is being loud near a mic stand to please keep conversation down or they'll do it themselves. For the most part, people respect these requests. b) Taping being a detriment to acquiring new fans/taking away from record sales: I lumped these together because I think they address pretty much the same issue. Früvous keeps up a grueling tour schedule and is always trying to break new ground fan-wise. At the same time, they acknowledge that they have a massive, dedicated fan base. Keeping long-time fans happy while also giving new fans a good introduction to the band is a difficult task at best. One of the things the band has *always* supported, though, is taping for personal enjoyment and one-to-one trading. Früvous makes and keeps fans through their live show; tapes are one avenue for people to experience Früvous live. Many people on this newsgroup live in remote places, and first got a taste of the live Früvous experience through a tape acquired from one of the tapers who posts here. If anything, live taping has *increased* the Früvous fan base. As far as impeding album sales . . . well, that's kind of a bottomless argument. Tapers like Josh, Chad Maloney, Jason Reiser, Joe Navratil, Nate DeRose, and others are among the *most* dedicated Früvous fans. So are the people with whom they trade. I don't think I know of a single trader who doesn't bother to buy albums; and I don't understand why a new fan would trade tapes *instead* of buying albums. Just doesn't make sense. And if the band really had a problem with it, don't you think they'd notice it and say something? Those stands are kind of hard to miss :); and I assure you that if any of the above people were expressly asked not to tape, they wouldn't. Another aspect of live taping is the direct benefit to the band. Jian often asks for copies of shows. You know that "Lowest Highest Point" bit on Live Noise? Jason Reiser taped that from the audience. It's not like these guys are hoarding these tapes in their basements or something . . . they're making them available to fans and to the band. So there's no hidden, anti-band agenda behind taping. Sometimes the stands can get in the way. Sometimes you'll be asked not to have noise-polluting conversations near the mics. Every taper I know gets to the venue early on purpose. It's kind of like being unusually tall and still wanting a front-row spot. If you get there early, no one can claim your spot from you. It's pretty simple. I'm one of the shortest of the short, and I completely acknowledge the tapers' right to be there. Hopefully it won't get to the point of Blues Traveler and the former Grateful Dead, where the band has to designate taper sections. Though maybe some would like that . . . dunno. ~~Kate - -- Kate Leahy kleahy@loyola.edu katiewow@fruhead.com *********************************** "It's a long long road It's a big big world We are wise wise women We are giggling girls . . . " - --Ani DiFranco *********************************** ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 1999 19:50:46 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Re: *itinerary* Lawrence said: >eek! no more DC? my thoughts exactly. :( Ah well. There's always Mountain Stage, Lawrence. Not too far from you ... - -- Lori ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 1999 19:33:30 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Re: Food for thought on Tapers Chad Maloney said: >If we are >going to continue to have problems like this, maybe we need to >have the band put their foot down and live with where it >ends up standing. > >I'm gonna guess taping makes them uncomfortable in the same way >a camera flash makes them uncomfortable or a red light on a >video camera makes them uncomfortable. It takes them out of the >context of putting on a spur of the moment show. A camera flash >makes them think about what they were doing at the time to >make someone want a picture because it'll be around forever. >I'm sure seeing mic stands is discomforting when they can see >them from the stage because they know whatever they do tonight >can be heard tomorrow or the next day now. With Fruvous, it >probably even gets down to individual people whom they know >tape shows. My probably-skewed perspective on this, as a non-taper who adores the shows she has on tape, is: It seems to me that I've noticed the band being more uncomfortable lately with taping. There are many more pointed references to tapers, snarky comments about bootlegs, etc. within the context of the show than I ever noticed in my first dozen shows or so. I don't know why this is, but I have a couple of oddball observations that may or may not be valid. Draw your own conclusions. 1) There do seem to be more tapers consistently in attendance than there used to be (I'm judging only by the shows I've attended, natch). As this thread already has covered, this can be distracting to the audience, but even more so to the band. And they are there to perform to that particular live audience, not for the sake of the audio-video feed that will preserve the performance for those who for whatever reason *didn't* make the effort to get out to the venue for that show. 2) It's more difficult to keep up a working relationship with so many tapers, and be fairly certain that they'll all respect the band's wishes regarding a specific show being distributed or not. 3) I doubt I'm the only one who knows of specific cases where the band has let it be known that it does not wish a particular performance to be distributed, only to find that it has been. The example I know of specifically is the show last fall where they debuted "Grudge". They specifically requested it not be taped, as it and other songs were works in progress, yet soon afterward several people who hadn't been at the show knew the words, the tune ... clear evidence of at least one taper not respecting the band's intellectual property. Even if I were comfortable with letting a small audience witness the "growing pains" of some of my incomplete work, having it on record -- archived -- is a completely different issue. If one or more tapers does not respect the band's right to shield its work in progress from indiscriminate distribution, then I'd say the band has every right to be uncomfortable with this, and to consider preventing it in the future. I can see where it would cause some mixed feelings -- the band wants to have authority over their work, but they also know some of the tapers well, know their motivations are pure, know that taping has been a positive force in the past, so they don't necessarily want to cut those people off at the pass either. I don't know what the solution is. I'd hate for Früvous to come down hard in favor of banning taping, because a) I selfishly enjoy the shows I've traded for and b) I altruistically think the diversity of theme, of banter, of setlist and of mood that they bring to each show is what makes them so special. This band - -- like Phish, like the Dead -- really does *need* to be archived, and fans who can't get to shows frequently (I'm thinking Albertans and Washington Staters here :) ) do deserve to experience the breadth of Früvous' performances. Furthermore, live show tapes are surefire fanbase-building tools for this type of band. However, I *am* thinking they may have to put some sort of limit on who is permitted to tape shows -- whether it's a lottery system or what, I don't know. The thought doesn't make me happy -- I know several tapers are quite dedicated, and would never do anything to infringe on the band's rights or wishes. But the increasing numbers may be part of the problem, and without a thought-out policy it's hard for the tapers themselves to figure out what the solution should be. Lori@fruhead.com ~^~^~^ ~~~^~ ^~^~^ ~^~ ^~^ ~^~^~^~^~ ~^~ ^~^ ^~^~^~ ^~^~ ^~^~~~ My Strange and Wonderful World: http://members.aol.com/srm9988n/index.html The spiffy, newly-updated amm-f FAQ: http://www.fruvous.com/news/faq.html ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 1999 20:07:32 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Re: Chicago show review/report! Lawrence, that model of self-control, said: >(somewhere in there, he used the word "Bittersweet" and I had to >resist a lot of temptation to say something :) oooo, now *there's* an idea ... :> - -- Lori ******************** a country rain on a city street ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:15:58 -0400 From: Lawrence P Solomon Subject: Re: *itinerary* Lori at fruhead dot com wrote: > Ah well. There's always Mountain Stage, Lawrence. Not too far from you ... yeah, I was planning on hitting that one on the way back from Cincinnati. And if I can make a convincing argument to my parents to let our cousins in Saranac Lake, NY host Thanksgiving Dinner, I'll be going to Rochester and Ottawa, too. :) - -- Lawrence Solomon * http://www.fruhead.com/users/zaph * zaph@fruhead.com "Just because you're floating doesn't mean * This space inadvertently you haven't drowned." -They Might Be Giants * left blank. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:59:35 GMT From: "The Marvelous Myla Fantastik" Subject: Re: second Conan song YEAH!!! YEAH!!! I SECOND THAT MOTION!!! that would be schweet. - -Myla Fantastik That's a great signature! I can't believe I thought of that! Ok, now... what was it again? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:37:19 -0400 From: "Kate Leahy" Subject: Re: 2nd Conan song? Well, if they *get* a second song it would be a miracle akin to the vision at Lourdes. ~~Kate - -- Kate Leahy kleahy@loyola.edu katiewow@fruhead.com *********************************** "It's a long long road It's a big big world We are wise wise women We are giggling girls . . . " - --Ani DiFranco *********************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:38:58 -0400 From: "Kate Leahy" Subject: Re: 2nd Conan song? >Am I the only one that thinks the live Earthquakes is... well... >really weak? The two times I've seen it, the tempo is on the >edge of falling apart. Agreed. However, at the 'XPN taping it was *amazing*. I can't wait for everyone to hear it :). ~~Kate - -- Kate Leahy kleahy@loyola.edu katiewow@fruhead.com *********************************** "It's a long long road It's a big big world We are wise wise women We are giggling girls . . . " - --Ani DiFranco *********************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:56:10 -0400 From: "Novac" Subject: What I have determinded... FruWench wrote in message > >Murray, the introverted one, is around 10%. No comment :) > I dunno. I've seen Murray out a lot more then I've seen Dave. Maybe its just > the shows I go to. *shrug* Yes, my percentages were definitely tainted by my subjective viewpoints :) But, alas, I continue to refuse to join one of the five fru-fronts. - --Novac ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:51:46 -0400 From: "Ken Perschke" Subject: Re: 2nd Conan song? > > > Does anybody else think it would be cool for them to do something really > weird and obscure. My vote would go for something like Marion Fruvous or (if > you want to get really extreme), Sad Today. Now, I certainly know they won't > do that (wouldn't want to scare people off), but with another song to play > around with, I would love to see it! > I've just had a better idea.... They should come out in full suits and pull out one of the Beatles covers, as the Beatles did for Ed Sullivan. I think this would be even more fun :) Ken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:52:15 -0400 From: "Novac" Subject: Re: 2nd Conan song? > Am I the only one that thinks the live Earthquakes is... well... > really weak? The two times I've seen it, the tempo is on the > edge of falling apart. I'm with AJ on this one. Earthquakes rox in a live setting. The problem is, I don't think the awesomeness of it would really translate via TV airwaves. It's really more of an in-person type of song to do. - --Novac ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #836 ********************************************