From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #817 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Wednesday, September 15 1999 Volume 03 : Number 817 Today's Subjects: ----------------- OT: llamas [Tamra ] Re: I have a college pal... ["Cameron Ross" ] Re: Gord's Gold ["Carey Farrell" ] Re: I have a college pal . . . ["Carey Farrell" ] Re: I have a college pal... [Josh Drury ] Re: Bootlegs for download [steve@ra2598.freeserve.co.uk (steve)] Re: Bootlegs for download [George ] Re: Public Interest yesterday ["Jennifer Schlosser" ] sigh... [shalini trivedi ] Re: Bootlegs for download [steve@ra2598.freeserve.co.uk (steve)] Re: Sigh.... [Mike Kosloski ] Re: OT: llamas [leaben@aol.comBender (Leah Bender)] Re: I have a college pal... [leaben@aol.comBender (Leah Bender)] Re: Earthquakes, etc. [SugarFly26@aol.com] My article.... [Phillyfru9@aol.com] Re: teachers, classmates, and fruvous (was shakey thingies) [SugarFly26@a] Re: Moxy Fruvous Cuts the Clowning and Jian pics [CLeast18@aol.com] Re: teachers, classmates, and fruvous (was shakey thingies) [beatleslug@a] Re: A quick hello and it's back to lurking :) (Short Reviews of Columbus and Cleveland) [vika@fruhead.c] Re: Public Interest yesterday [nicole.twn.is@ana.ng.at.tmbg.org (Nicole t] Re: teachers, classmates, and fruvous (was shakey thingies) [Chad Maloney] Re: Earthquakes, etc. (long) [Josh Drury ] Re: Earthquakes, etc. ["Novac" ] Re: Sleeping south (kind of OT) [Megan ] Re: I have a college pal... [Josh Drury ] Re: I have a college pal... ["Novac" ] Canadianisms [Frances Meale ] Re: Hob-nobbing with the G-G [srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead d] Re: Earthquakes, etc. [srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com)] Re: OT: llamas [srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:03:30 GMT From: Tamra Subject: OT: llamas Novac advises: Too true. The down side is its just *really* difficult changing those humungo litter boxes.... tamra ************************************************************** His voice! When he sings, I melt, just like a popsicle on the Fourth of July! Darla, RE: Alfalfa ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:04:21 GMT From: "Cameron Ross" Subject: Re: I have a college pal... >The sign says "Please Rewind, or Face A $5 Fee" or somesuch. You know the >type. The sign's very existence implies that most people don't think enough >to rewind before they return their videos, which isn't the case. So the >lyrics are saying a) the sign is 'desperate' because it's whining about a >situation that rarely happens, and b) most patrons rewind. But listen... it is "Contrary to the desperate sign, [that] most patrons always 'please rewind'" So if most patrons always rewind? the sign would say "Don't rewind" correct? (I was going to wait for someone else to bring that up :) Life101 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:49:11 GMT From: "Carey Farrell" Subject: Re: Gord's Gold Oops, while I was relating my silly story about my friend Megan and "Gord's Gold," I forgot to include her reaction to Murray's verse (aka "The Smarmy Verse") on "Big Fish": "He sounds like Barry Manilow!" Carey http://www.angelfire.com/md/goovie "I am Lazlo. I speak poetry and bring cheer, generally." "I'm the Queen of Spain! My husband works at the Pizza Pizza, duh!" - -- Megan and me, terrorizing the Healthy Choice chatroom (she will be converted. oh, yes, she will be converted) :) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 18:04:07 GMT From: "Carey Farrell" Subject: Re: I have a college pal . . . Ln wrote: >I've been thinking it to be (2) but the thing that I never quite got, > >maybe cuz I'm interpreting it wrong? is when they say 'So contrary to > >the desperate sign, most patrons always please rewind.' Which always >got >me going huh? So the sign says don't rewind? What? And I think >I'm missing >something really obvious that will clear up all my >confusion, so if anyone >knows what it is, I'd like to hear it. :) >thanks! I always picture something along the lines of those stupid stickers they put on the actual videos: "BEE Kind, REWIND." With the pictures of the happy little bee. Bleh. Carey "Look! It says 'BEE'! And there's a picture of a BEE on it! That's funny!" --Ralph Wiggum, "The Simpsons" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 12:56:03 -0500 From: Josh Drury Subject: Re: I have a college pal... Cameron Ross wrote: > > But listen... it is "Contrary to the desperate sign, [that] most patrons > always 'please rewind'" > > So if most patrons always rewind? the sign would say "Don't rewind" correct? > (I was going to wait for someone else to bring that up :) > Are you a lawyer? Technically, you have a valid argument, but I believe the true meaning is "contrary to the [spirit of] the desparate sign", which would _imply_ that lack of rewinding was a serious problem in the store. But, since most patrons rewind, this isn't the case. Josh Drury Chronic Video Non-rewinder ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:44:14 GMT From: steve@ra2598.freeserve.co.uk (steve) Subject: Re: Bootlegs for download On 15 Sep 1999 11:29:03 -0500, Norris Thomlinson wrote: >The IRC channel #tape_trade_central on dalnet is running a bootleg VQF >ftp server. It's entirely leech, but to get in, you have to come by >the IRC channel to ask someone for the password, and hopefully to hang >out and chat a bit. The password is also mentioned in the topic, so >if no one's around to ask, just check that. > >*********PLEASE READ******** >We ask that you not distribute any cdr's burned from these vqf's. If >you want to burn yourself a copy, go for it, but *please* don't trade >them. Circulating lower quality shows is a bad thing for the whole >trading community. If you find something you want on cdr, you can >probably set up a trade with one of us in the channel for it. Too fuckin right.Burn the mp3 traders! >If you don't know anything about IRC, grab a client from >http;//www.mirc.com Once you have it installed, use "irc.dal.net" for >the IRC server, and then join channel #tape_trade_central > >For more info on the channel, VQFs, the ftp, or IRC, check out our >page at http://ttc.insubordination.org If you have trouble getting on >IRC, email me and I'll try to help you out. Cheers, > >Norris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:29:44 GMT From: George Subject: Re: Bootlegs for download there is nothing wrong w/ trading mp3..... they don't make as high quality audio cdr as the original.. but for personal use they do the trick. I agree though, let's not saturate the net etc., w/ poorer quality boots sourced from mp3. But what's wrong w/ trading mp3.. if i have U2- Zoomerang, and u have POP sydney, we can trade them via ftp, or put em on a cdr and do it that way. As long as they aren't being sourced into an audio cdr and sold/traded out that way.... steve wrote: > On 15 Sep 1999 11:29:03 -0500, Norris Thomlinson > wrote: > > >The IRC channel #tape_trade_central on dalnet is running a bootleg VQF > >ftp server. It's entirely leech, but to get in, you have to come by > >the IRC channel to ask someone for the password, and hopefully to hang > >out and chat a bit. The password is also mentioned in the topic, so > >if no one's around to ask, just check that. > > > >*********PLEASE READ******** > >We ask that you not distribute any cdr's burned from these vqf's. If > >you want to burn yourself a copy, go for it, but *please* don't trade > >them. Circulating lower quality shows is a bad thing for the whole > >trading community. If you find something you want on cdr, you can > >probably set up a trade with one of us in the channel for it. > > Too fuckin right.Burn the mp3 traders! > >If you don't know anything about IRC, grab a client from > >http;//www.mirc.com Once you have it installed, use "irc.dal.net" for > >the IRC server, and then join channel #tape_trade_central > > > >For more info on the channel, VQFs, the ftp, or IRC, check out our > >page at http://ttc.insubordination.org If you have trouble getting on > >IRC, email me and I'll try to help you out. Cheers, > > > >Norris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:59:52 GMT From: "Jennifer Schlosser" Subject: Re: Public Interest yesterday On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Nicole the Wonder Nerd wrote: > Unless, of course, one LIKES sea shanties. :) And then Caitlin wrote: > and I'll surface long enough to say: "Freak!" > (quietly hiding the Stan Rogers CD under my blanket, of course) Stan Rogers. Oh yeaaaaah. Thought I was the only one. Phew. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:55:24 -0500 From: shalini trivedi Subject: sigh... ji know it does no good to complain...but i have to vent somewhere... why does the urbana frvous show have to be scheduled on the same day that live is playing at the riv in chicago? *whinewhinewhinewhine* *sniff* okay i'm better now... ************************************************ * "Those who hear * Shalini Trivedi * * not the music * Chemical Engineering * * think the * College of LAS * * dancers mad." *University of Illinois* * - Unknown * Urbana-Champaign * ************************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:46:12 GMT From: steve@ra2598.freeserve.co.uk (steve) Subject: Re: Bootlegs for download On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:29:44 GMT, George wrote: I agree there is nothing wrong with trading mp3's as long as both parties know they are trading mp3's.Pity there are some lying cheating bastards about who are selling them and trading them as proper cd's I have no problem with people trading mp3 sourced bootlegs as long as i am told the source is mp3 Me i wouldn't trade mp3's plus i can't anyway i live in England and the phone charges for downloading a boot,would cost me more than an original Crystal Cat! >there is nothing wrong w/ trading mp3..... they don't make as high quality >audio cdr as the original.. but for personal use they do the trick. I agree >though, let's not saturate the net etc., w/ poorer quality boots sourced >from mp3. But what's wrong w/ trading mp3.. if i have U2- Zoomerang, and u >have POP sydney, we can trade them via ftp, or put em on a cdr and do it >that way. As long as they aren't being sourced into an audio cdr and >sold/traded out that way.... > >steve wrote: > >> On 15 Sep 1999 11:29:03 -0500, Norris Thomlinson >> wrote: >> >> >The IRC channel #tape_trade_central on dalnet is running a bootleg VQF >> >ftp server. It's entirely leech, but to get in, you have to come by >> >the IRC channel to ask someone for the password, and hopefully to hang >> >out and chat a bit. The password is also mentioned in the topic, so >> >if no one's around to ask, just check that. >> > >> >*********PLEASE READ******** >> >We ask that you not distribute any cdr's burned from these vqf's. If >> >you want to burn yourself a copy, go for it, but *please* don't trade >> >them. Circulating lower quality shows is a bad thing for the whole >> >trading community. If you find something you want on cdr, you can >> >probably set up a trade with one of us in the channel for it. >> >> Too fuckin right.Burn the mp3 traders! >> >If you don't know anything about IRC, grab a client from >> >http;//www.mirc.com Once you have it installed, use "irc.dal.net" for >> >the IRC server, and then join channel #tape_trade_central >> > >> >For more info on the channel, VQFs, the ftp, or IRC, check out our >> >page at http://ttc.insubordination.org If you have trouble getting on >> >IRC, email me and I'll try to help you out. Cheers, >> > >> >Norris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:26:37 -0400 From: Mike Kosloski Subject: Re: Sigh.... Well, as I am faaaar closer to U-C, Il. ...and it's Moxy Fruvous, I am just going to have to hit the Canopy instead of the Riv. ;) Hi! I've delurked...sort of. :) Koz (koz@fruhead.com) ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 1999 21:17:55 GMT From: leaben@aol.comBender (Leah Bender) Subject: Re: OT: llamas >The down side is its just *really* difficult >changing those humungo litter boxes.... yeah, litterboxes would be a chore... but try getting that kind of stain out of the carpet!!!!!!!!!!! - -Bender - ------------------------------ Walking barefoot in the sand is good. Walking barefoot on a cactus is bad. - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 1999 21:02:15 GMT From: leaben@aol.comBender (Leah Bender) Subject: Re: I have a college pal... >(and I am hoping I'm closer to being right on this one than I >was on the "sleeping south" question). > Hey... maybe this "stickler" quote is the same person as the woman in PTT... Hehe! Let's tear this sucker apart! :) - -Bender - ------------------------------ Walking barefoot in the sand is good. Walking barefoot on a cactus is bad. - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 21:21:29 GMT From: SugarFly26@aol.com Subject: Re: Earthquakes, etc. In a message dated 9/15/99 8:03:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vika@fruhead.com writes: << >my hypothesis is that "he " is Death, the Grim Reaper, whatever you want to >call him. Wow, Josh. I have never thought of that. (There's a surprise...) I've just compacently assumed that the song just passes from third-person to first-person. But that'd be too simplistic for Davelyrics, wouldn't it? I never thought of that either, but it makes sense, sorta. >No clue about Hate Letter's >quiet vocals, though. Maybe they just wanted to be sure that you'd >crank it. >> Maybe it makes it more effective as a hate song...quiet rather than loud and angry. Just a thought. - ----------> Ln ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:06:30 GMT From: Phillyfru9@aol.com Subject: My article.... Well i guess i asked for it. I have recieved an abundance of e-mails asking for the whole interview. I figured it would be easier to post this than to respond to all of you... I just wanted to let you know that I am working on it and will get it to you as soon as possible. Due to wonderful AOL *gag*, I have use my friend's e-mail. So, as soon as I can get to his house, you will have it. It should be by this weekend. (If you were wondering I think his e-mail is raynic@erols.com). Katie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 21:40:31 GMT From: SugarFly26@aol.com Subject: Re: teachers, classmates, and fruvous (was shakey thingies) darlene who's really another jen wrote: << Many years back, my teacher had asked him permission to perform King of Spain in their music ensemble, >> One day when I was at camp this summer, I was wearing my beloved Moxy Fruvous tshirt, and this girl in my crew saw it and was like Hey Moxy Fruvous, I like them. I was like whoa, cool. So when I went to lunch, I was talking to one of my good friends and I was like Oh yeah, I met someone who likes Fruvous. And she was like no way who? I told her the girl's name and this really awesome guy we'd met who was eating with us was like I've heard of them..Only one song though. We asked which one and he said King of Spain, because some guys at his college had played it for him and sometimes sang along with them because they did good impressions I guess. So we're working on making him a full fruhead. :) - -------------> Ln ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:57:42 GMT From: CLeast18@aol.com Subject: Re: Moxy Fruvous Cuts the Clowning and Jian pics That was from the newspaper a while ago ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 1999 22:29:53 GMT From: beatleslug@aol.comprendo (BeatleSlug) Subject: Re: teachers, classmates, and fruvous (was shakey thingies) ummm, out of the loop I am, but what Thornhill Promo Picture??? By the way, my Canadian math teacher has a field day with that shirt! - -Joy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:08:38 GMT From: vika@fruhead.com (Vika Zafrin) Subject: Re: A quick hello and it's back to lurking :) (Short Reviews of Columbus and Cleveland) coondog42@my-deja.com said: >-Mark Mark!!! No, don't go back to lurking! Post, participate, have Lots Of Fun. Good to see you here, outside of IRC. :) - ----- Vika Zafrin ----- vika@fruhead.com ----- "I am writing this an hour later and there is still a small demon in my stomach scratching to get out. And it's small and green and nasty. It murdered the antacid I gave it, and laughed." -Laura Lemay, re: wasabi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:09:52 GMT From: nicole.twn.is@ana.ng.at.tmbg.org (Nicole the Wonder Nerd) Subject: Re: Public Interest yesterday On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:38:26 -0700, someone who looked like Caitlin whispered: >On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Nicole the Wonder Nerd wrote: >> Unless, of course, one LIKES sea shanties. :) >and I'll surface long enough to say: "Freak!" >(quietly hiding the Stan Rogers CD under my blanket, of course) Stan Rogers CDs? I have no Stan Rogers CDs. I also don't have an entire mix tape of maritime folk in the car. Nope, not here... these aren't the droids you're looking for... >Hey Nicole, is it too soon to start plotting the west coast trek and >convincing people to join us? Muahaha. >:> I'm busily plotting even as we speak (and dagnabit, they'd better confirm that second San Francisco date soon), although I'll only make the Bay Area shows. Isn't it a shame that all those East Coasters are too lily-livered, cold-blooded, yellow-bellied CHICKEN to come out here.... I plan to pick up GAMH tickets later this month and Palookaville tickets possibly this weekend (assuming they're on sale), so if anyone wants one, e-mail me. Bring your friends! Bring your enemies! Bring your enemies' pets! Most importantly, where should we have the pre-show dinners? - --nicole twn *** "Our lives become the stories that we weave."--from _Once On This Island_ Visit Nicolopolis! http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~carlsonn Reply-to address is INCORRECT! Think of it as an intelligence test. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 18:12:42 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: teachers, classmates, and fruvous (was shakey thingies) BeatleSlug wrote: > > ummm, out of the loop I am, but what Thornhill Promo Picture??? By the way, my > Canadian math teacher has a field day with that shirt! The Thornhill Promo Pic is available at FDC: http://www.fruvous.com/albmpics/th-promo.jpg - Chad ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:23:46 -0500 From: Josh Drury Subject: Re: Earthquakes, etc. (long) Melanie wrote: < A long, extended alternative hypothesis for Earthquakes, which you'll have read already if you're following this thread > Yup, sounds good, too. I had considered whether "he" meant God (in which case it's "He", but they cleverly avoided that by not printing liner lyrics), but I couldn't quite make it jibe with the rest of the song. Good job on that, though. Anyone else want to contribute? I still think that some sort of online Frusongs interpretations site would be a good idea... Josh Drury Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:40:49 -0400 From: "Novac" Subject: Re: Earthquakes, etc. > Or it's just poorly mixed. :) Intentional though it might've been, > it's my only Grudge (pun intended) with this CD. Seeing as it's one > of my two favorite songs on Thornhill. HL is my least fav song on Thornhill--fully because I can't hear, understand, or follow the vocals at those levels. - --Novac ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:29:16 -0400 From: Megan Subject: Re: Sleeping south (kind of OT) Hi again! I'm back from the summer during which I lived at home, saw three Fruvous shows, and was, for all intents and purposes, not able to access the internet (horrors!). I don't post much, but I just had to share an interesting happening. Tonight at dinner my roommate got all of us fortune cookies from the Chinese food line, and mine was "Sitting towards the east may bring you good fortune." Kind of apropos, huh? Anyway, back to reading about the history of Jazz. - -Megan FruWench wrote: > > There is alos a psychic significance to sleeping with your head pointing a > certain direction. Each compass point has a particulary energy. I'm not sure > which is which but one is for enlightenment, knowledge, and wisdon; one is for > protection against bad dreams and negative energies, one is for psychic > strength and power. > - -- @>->----- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:43:32 -0500 From: Josh Drury Subject: Re: I have a college pal... Novac wrote: > The quote, again: > "So contrary to the desparate sign, most patrons always "please rewind!" > And the clerks don't mind, they're very kind, the only stickler has > resigned" > > It could mean: So contrary to the desparate sign [of "be kind, rewind"], > most patrons always [recieve the admonishing message of] 'please rewind!'" > This interpretation would also straighten up confusion with the following > line, which notes that the clerks don't mind the patron's failing at > rewinding. Even if the sign DID say "Don't rewind", the following line would > then be saying that the clerks, if UNkind, would mind that the patrons broke > the 'law' and rewound. > Thus, it's saying that: Most patrons always fail to rewind (who wants to?) > contrary to that sign, and the clerks (or sign) screams at them "please > rewind!", but they still don't charge the fee because they're kind. > I'm sure I've confused everyone who isn't following this thread. Mission > accomplished. > --Novac "Is there a logic course here that one of us could enroll in?" -- Murray Foster ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:35:34 -0400 From: "Novac" Subject: Re: I have a college pal... > But listen... it is "Contrary to the desperate sign, [that] most patrons > always 'please rewind'" > > So if most patrons always rewind? the sign would say "Don't rewind" correct? > (I was going to wait for someone else to bring that up :) I have also thought about that in the past. But, there are other ways of interpreting it. The quote, again: "So contrary to the desparate sign, most patrons always "please rewind!" And the clerks don't mind, they're very kind, the only stickler has resigned" It could mean: So contrary to the desparate sign [of "be kind, rewind"], most patrons always [recieve the admonishing message of] 'please rewind!'" This interpretation would also straighten up confusion with the following line, which notes that the clerks don't mind the patron's failing at rewinding. Even if the sign DID say "Don't rewind", the following line would then be saying that the clerks, if UNkind, would mind that the patrons broke the 'law' and rewound. Thus, it's saying that: Most patrons always fail to rewind (who wants to?) contrary to that sign, and the clerks (or sign) screams at them "please rewind!", but they still don't charge the fee because they're kind. I'm sure I've confused everyone who isn't following this thread. Mission accomplished. - --Novac ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 21:13:33 -0400 From: Frances Meale Subject: Canadianisms This is a cute site-I thought it would be of interest and amusement to most of you. So have a brochette and kiss your favourite allophone. :-) And don't forget the serviettes. http://home.istar.ca/~awright/WORDS1.HTM ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 1999 01:45:09 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Re: Hob-nobbing with the G-G Cara said: >It's a new national newspaper put forward by that newspaper baron Conrad >Black. It was really just made to take business away from the other >national newspaper The Globe & Mail. Oh, you mean like the way Rupert Murdoch takes away the business of his companies with other of his companies? Tooooooo funny! - -- Lori ******************** "Now there's incontromutable proof -- Cleveland's f***ed." ~~ Trace, in the red light district, 9/12/99 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 1999 01:30:00 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Re: Earthquakes, etc. Katrin said: >Yeah, I hadn't thought of it either, and I like Josh's interpretation a >lot. I'd assumed that the "he" referred to a deity/supreme being, Ditto. But using Josh's interpretation makes me *really* appreciate the contrast between the deathless (although not changeless) things observed in the refrain, and the temporal, trivial nature of all the problems the narrator's saying he really shouldn't obsess about. - -- Lori ****************** look at these tiny things bothering me ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 1999 01:39:37 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Re: OT: llamas Bender said: >>The down side is its just *really* difficult >>changing those humungo litter boxes.... > >yeah, litterboxes would be a chore... but try getting that kind of stain >out >of the carpet!!!!!!!!!!! You're missing the point, kids. With not too much effort, llamas can be toilet-trained just as easily as cats can. And if you knit, you have a never-ending supply of wool for sweaters and tuques. What a noble pet! - -- Lori **************************** "Lori, no offense, but the most grown-up thing about you is your luggage." ~~ Donna, 9/10/99 ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #817 ********************************************