From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #771 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Wednesday, September 1 1999 Volume 03 : Number 771 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com ["Winnie da Fru aka] Re: Beachfest, Sept. 6 [msavo@aol.com (MSavo)] Re: Pointless candy/brownie discussion [trace@fruhead.com (Trace)] Re: Question - No Answer - Nothing Useful [trace@fruhead.com (Trace)] Re: Pointless brownie/candy discussion [sugarfly26@aol.com (SugarFly26)] Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com [FruCake1@aol.com] Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com [sugarfly26@aol.com] Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com [~jen <~jen@fruhead] re: LOSERS UNITE [SnarkiFru ] FREE SOFTWARE 8086 [jbjrgr@yahoo.com] Snarky alert!!!!! [bbwminors@aol.com (BBWMinors)] Re: Losers Unite! (was: Re: Ohio Shows) ["Bell'occhio" ] Re: Ohio Shows [Lawrence P Solomon ] Re: Independence [Ellen ] Re: NOW Magazine this week [Ellen ] Re: OBSESSED WAS (Re: Another Jian look-alike.) [CLeast18@aol.com] Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com [bbwminors@aol.com ] Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com ["Jill Hufnagel" ] Re: Independence [serra44@aol.com (Jill Friedman)] Re: Yay Vermont! [mouseone@aol.com (Mouse One)] waytogodave ["Tim Deegan" ] Re: Beachfest, Sept. 6 [Fiona ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:34:10 GMT From: "Winnie da Fru aka Sara" Subject: Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com >I'm slowing a surely working on getting a site called Waytogomike.com What about Jian? Isn't he going to feel left out? Sara ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 01 Sep 1999 19:24:47 GMT From: msavo@aol.com (MSavo) Subject: Re: Beachfest, Sept. 6 Hi everyone I am travelling to the Beachfest also. I haven't really got a clue how to get to Kew Gardens! Someone mentioned travelling by streetcar(?)...any directions or instructions for someone arriving at Union station would be very much appreciated. thanks and hope to see you all there! Richard C (Chappo) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:04:58 GMT From: trace@fruhead.com (Trace) Subject: Re: Pointless candy/brownie discussion On 01 Sep 1999 17:58:38 GMT, Lori, chad and I pointlessly bickered: >>> >So you don't like Little Debbie brownies.... >>> I must admit, the brownies are good. Highly sweet, but good. >> >>Yeah, but they are boy-brownies. Yick. > >Do I want to know how one tells a boy brownie from a girl brownie? Sure I do. It's easy. Girl Brownies have troop numbers. > >chocolate = good. *excessive* sugar = bad. YVMV. > >>Aside from Peeps. > >peeps are not baked goods. peeps are an altogether different animal. Mmmm, Peeps. Every Easter, I buy a six pack of yellow chick Peeps, eat one, go into sugar shock, and let the other 5 go stale. It's tradition! Proud former member of Brownie Troop 56, - -- Trace trace@fruhead.com AMM-F: You must be this insane to ride ----- - -Veronica J Gruneberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 18:58:26 GMT From: trace@fruhead.com (Trace) Subject: Re: Question - No Answer - Nothing Useful On 01 Sep 1999 18:06:56 GMT, FruMommy administered chastisement with: >>Did ya ever notice that Fruvous doesn't have a song entitled >>"Baltimore?" > >Now Trace, you did say we didn't absolutely HAVE to mention that ... geez, that >high road lasted what, 2 days? *I* have no recollection of agreeing to this. *You* can feel free to take the high road, but I'm stockpiling ammunition for the big Maryland-Philly Cage of Death Match :-) >-- Lori, who has stockpiled a few other incriminating phrases from a few other >pertinent posts, just in case you two start misbehaving again .... Hey, I was happily lurking below the radar in this thread when HE started it! Being naughty again, - -- Trace trace@fruhead.com AMM-F: You must be this insane to ride ----- - -Veronica J Gruneberg ------------------------------ Date: 01 Sep 1999 19:53:46 GMT From: sugarfly26@aol.com (SugarFly26) Subject: Re: Pointless brownie/candy discussion >Girl Brownies have troop numbers. seen on a sticker:: i got kicked out of cub scouts for eating a Brownie. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:01:05 GMT From: FruCake1@aol.com Subject: Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com In a message dated 9/1/99 3:34:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, daancing_queen@hotmail.com writes: << What about Jian? Isn't he going to feel left out? >> Jian gets all the chicks! ;) I'm sure he'd rather have that then a web-site. HAHAHA :) Lisa Bills ------------------------------ Date: 01 Sep 1999 19:50:55 GMT From: sugarfly26@aol.com (SugarFly26) Subject: Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com i'll help with any of them however i can ::cough html cough:: :) i dont have a place to post one, and i dont know nearly as much about them as most of you guys, but i can help with html and stuff should it ever be needed. is anyone doing a way to go jian site? if ya got one for the other 3 ya gotta have one for jian!! :) lemme know what i can do (if anything) to help out. - --------> Ln ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:30:23 GMT From: ~jen <~jen@fruhead.com> Subject: Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com Wouldn't that be "WayToGoForTee.com"? ;-) [1] ~jen [1] just took a guess at that spelling... - -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Nobody likes you when you're 23." --Blink 182 "Do you know that you are very strong?"-- Grover "Measure your life in love."-- Rent Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:50:55 GMT From: SnarkiFru Subject: re: LOSERS UNITE Lori concluded: - ---------------- zainab said: ><< I guess I'm just looking for assurance from folks > who will be at the Cleveland and BG shows that > I'll have people to hang out with. and then Lisa Bills said: >I'll also be there alone :( >Lisa Bills- also feeling like a loser :) I won't be alone -- I'll have my trusty sidekick trace with me (or maybe I'm *her* trusty sidekick.) But we're happy to hang out with any fruhead who wants to hang with us. :) - --------------------------- I'll be in Cleveland, BG & Columbus... now that I have my tickies!!! heehee I'll not be alone, i don't think... tentatively my friend Chris (heehee, he want's his @fruhead name to be NotDave cause he's bald and keeps getting mistaken for Dave-o) and my fru-bud Taryn... and we're invading Lynne's domicile, right? maybe? was i still included in that tally for Sat nite? um, mommy? - --Angie, suddenly insecure ;^} oh, and hey trace...re: a dear friend of ours: "It's a good thing you have so many other talents" Snark Snark ...there's a difference between knowing the path and wlking the path... - --Morpheus The Matrix ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:02:31 GMT From: jbjrgr@yahoo.com Subject: FREE SOFTWARE 8086 GO TO www.fvsoftware.com for all your COMPLETELY FREE SOFTWARE!!! qztzblspeocldqnplnplwnsxkjedmfofoiojuqqfgtiivfkehsxxkdpgmgmjjbvgcdenlmyxhiurmjtosieubnhmzwrc ------------------------------ Date: 01 Sep 1999 20:02:21 GMT From: bbwminors@aol.com (BBWMinors) Subject: Snarky alert!!!!! In case I hadn't been sure of what the word meant (or even if the word existed), I started reading FruPrincess Dana "Harriet the Spy" last night and the word appears in the very first chapter ... she couldn't understand why I started to giggle. QL (celebrating a successful first day of fourth grade for the FPD) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:05:00 -0400 From: "Bell'occhio" Subject: Re: Losers Unite! (was: Re: Ohio Shows) zainab, Lisa Bills, and Lori at fruhead dot com said a number of things which have nothing do to with this: I read that subject line and thought we Ohians were being called losers. Not something that's entirely out of the ordinary, but still... :) (This is all Toledo's fault I'm sure.) Lacey "Everybody needs good advice... what difference does it make if it comes from Jesus, Buddha, or Elvis?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:08:47 GMT From: "Jill Hufnagel" Subject: Re: OBSESSED WAS (Re: Another Jian look-alike.) - ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Sam I Am" To: ammf@fruvous.com Subject: OBSESSED WAS (Re: Another Jian look-alike.) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:54:57 -0400 Thats okay, I've been playing Fruvous covers for almost a year now and periodically have dreams that one day I'll get to play at least one song with the guys. Talk about far-gone. - -Sam- Hey I used to dream that they would let me sing at least one song with them... **Jiel** ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:34:00 GMT From: Ellen Subject: Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com In article <7qjusg$2ev$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, ~jen <~jen@fruhead.com> wrote: > > Wouldn't that be "WayToGoForTee.com"? ;-) [1] i thought it was supposed to be "F***YouMikeFord.com." ;) peace, ellen (hey, *i* didn't think of it) **************************************************************** It's not the colors that matter, but that we all fade away Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:58:08 GMT From: Lynne Subject: Ohio Shows Here's what I know.... Cleveland- me, Taryn, maybe Kim, maybe a fruvirgin-Kirsty from Scotland, maybe Angie's friend Chris BG - me, Taryn, Angie, Chris, Kirsty, Pete, and lots of BG people Columbus - Angie, Chris, dunno who else.... Detroit- me...??? - -lynne Zainab said: Hey folks! I've been planning to go to all three Ohio shows, but my Frutripping buddy just realized that they are the weekend of Rosh Hashana...so she can't join me. If I still go, I will have to drive lots of miles, which of course I'm prepared to do, except I don't want to go to concerts alone. I know there are several folks going who I've met in the past, and several who I've conversed with over e-mail and the fruvous chat. I guess I'm just looking for assurance from folks who will be at the Cleveland and BG shows that I'll have people to hang out with. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:58:10 -0400 From: Lawrence P Solomon Subject: Re: Ohio Shows Lynne wrote: > Detroit- me...??? if job allows (i.e. either I get one with good hours or I don't have one by then) I'll be in Detroit and Chicago, unless, of course, they sell out before I know if I can go. (anyone know if they have?) And I might try to persuade other Pittsburgh people I know to go to these shows, too... (the drive from Chicago to Pittsburgh is *not* fun when there's no one else in the car :) - -- Lawrence Solomon * http://www.fruhead.com/users/zaph * zaph@fruhead.com "Just because you're floating doesn't mean * This space inadvertently you haven't drowned." -They Might Be Giants * left blank. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:42:31 GMT From: Ellen Subject: Re: Independence In article <37cd74ee.17910752@news.p3.net>, trace@fruhead.com (Trace) wrote: > Aha, you must have a Canadian copy of Thornhill! The word > "independence" was apparently misspelled on the back of the Canadian > releases. i had forgotten about this... is this *true*? did somebody seriously fall down on their editing job? or do you suppose it was on... porpoise? (*duck*) peace, ellen (cringing on behalf of whoever let "Independance" get by them) **************************************************************** It's not the colors that matter, but that we all fade away Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:30:14 GMT From: Ellen Subject: Re: NOW Magazine this week In article <37CD6294.8C101433@tmbg.org>, zaph@tmbg.org wrote: > Now, while Thornhill would be subject to relatively little of this > editing, I can see it as being a problem in principle. i don't see editing as being a problem because i can't imagine walmart would be allowed to edit an artist's work at will. the artist would have to be willing to sell walmart an edited version of their work, which i don't see fruvous doing anytime soon. peace, ellen (THAT, indeed, would be selling out to walmart) **************************************************************** It's not the colors that matter, but that we all fade away Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:20:36 GMT From: CLeast18@aol.com Subject: Re: OBSESSED WAS (Re: Another Jian look-alike.) Everybody dreams! ------------------------------ Date: 01 Sep 1999 21:30:35 GMT From: bbwminors@aol.com (BBWMinors) Subject: Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com <> Oh definitely. Poor Jian never gets enough attention from the fans, does he??? QL, ROTFL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:13:14 GMT From: "Jill Hufnagel" Subject: Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com - ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Winnie da Fru aka Sara" To: ammf@fruvous.com Subject: Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:34:10 GMT >I'm slowing a surely working on getting a site called Waytogomike.com What about Jian? Isn't he going to feel left out? Sara Well I think that we should start one...don't you think? **Jiel** ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 01 Sep 1999 21:47:57 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead dot com) Subject: Re: Pointless candy/brownie/foodstuffs discussion Trace announced: >On 01 Sep 1999 17:58:38 GMT, Lori, chad and I pointlessly bickered: chad's in the middle again! I think one thing we can conclude after lo these many months is, whatever else the components of this sandwich may be, in discussing brownies/peeps/little debbies we've completely surrendered our claim to being organic OR to possessing any nutritional value whatsoever ....) - -- Lori ********************** A single brown banana Rots on the table And the television begs like a whore ------------------------------ Date: 01 Sep 1999 21:37:13 GMT From: leaben@aol.comBender (Leah Bender) Subject: Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com >is anyone >doing a way to go jian site? if ya got one for the other 3 ya gotta have one >for jian!! :) Hehe... while we're at it, why doesn't anyone do a waytogotobey.com? He deserves a lot of credit! How about waytogocal.com? He does important stuff, too! Oh.. and the most important task at hand... a site for a wonderful, sweet, kind, friendly human being... waytogobender.com! LOL! - -Bender (::hint hint wink wink nudge nudge:: Know what I mean? Say no more!) ------------------------------ Date: 01 Sep 1999 21:44:15 GMT From: leaben@aol.comBender (Leah Bender) Subject: re: LOSERS UNITE >my friend Chris (heehee, he >want's his @fruhead name to be NotDave cause he's bald and keeps getting >mistaken for Dave-o) Heehee, my constant companion at the FrüConcerts (no, not Steph... the other one!) I've been to has the same problem... I call him Not Dave, too! He's short. though... and sort of greenish... and for some reason, likes to go everywhere on a leash.... here's his picture: http://www.angelfire.com/nj2/leaben/images/NotDaveandLittleE2.jpg hehe, I'm eeeevil. - -Bender (Who has too many plastic friends... oh, dear, that came out WRONG!!!) ------------------------------ Date: 01 Sep 1999 22:08:48 GMT From: leaben@aol.comBender (Leah Bender) Subject: Re: Pointless candy/brownie/foodstuffs discussion >we've completely surrendered our claim to being organic OR to >possessing any nutritional value whatsoever ....) Wait... I thought you were supposed to have three servings of Lori a day... - -Bender (Yes... Your theory of my posting binges is very correct... lol!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:01:03 -0400 From: "Ken Perschke" Subject: Re: ATTN: Anyone willing to help with WaytogoMike.com > > Hehe... while we're at it, why doesn't anyone do a waytogotobey.com? He > deserves a lot of credit! How about waytogocal.com? He does important stuff, > too! Oh.. and the most important task at hand... a site for a wonderful, > sweet, kind, friendly human being... waytogobender.com! LOL! > If we're going for the whole thing, we really need to have a waytogojude.com. Where would we be without Jude, who does great and helpful things like post tour schedules! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:14:18 -0500 From: "Zainab" Subject: Re: LOSERS UNITE Leah Bender wrote in message <19990901174415.08352.00003099@ng-cc1.aol.com>... >Heehee, my constant companion at the FrüConcerts (no, not Steph... the other >one!) I've been to has the same problem... I call him Not Dave, too! He's >short. though... and sort of greenish... and for some reason, likes to go >everywhere on a leash.... here's his picture: And wasn't it established about a month ago that, indeed, Dave is not of this world? I mean, it seems like a reasonable conclusion..... Zainab ------------------------------ Date: 01 Sep 1999 22:11:54 GMT From: serra44@aol.com (Jill Friedman) Subject: Re: Independence >Aha, you must have a Canadian copy of Thornhill! The word >"independence" was apparently misspelled on the back of the Canadian >releases. The correct spelling is with an "e," and that is how my >copy has it spelled on the back (and everywhere else). Question: >does the misspelling on the Canadian releases make those copies worth >more? Probably not, but you never know :-) > Now, I *KNOW* the song is "Bed and Breakfast," but on my copy of Wood, it says "Bead and Breadfast." I can only assume this is because "d" and "k" are typed with the same finger, just different hands, and whoever wrote that made a mistake. I know I can't be the only one to have/ have noticed this.... - -J writing a song called the Ballad of Jill V. Fruhead Member of the Jian fan club Owner of all the MF albums and all of Ani DiFranco's "She's too short to play me."-Joey Potter Too short to play herself in a movie ------------------------------ Date: 01 Sep 1999 22:26:26 GMT From: mouseone@aol.com (Mouse One) Subject: Re: Yay Vermont! Oh yeah? Well how 'bout this? I take personal credit for inrtoducing Frü to Montpelier VT, (Population 8,000 and falling, from what I hear...) I've gotten at least 10 to 15 folks at least aware of the band through mix tapes and other assorted means of audial delivery. One girl at my school absolutely loves (and can only remember the part in) KOS where his highness states which band he is currently "jamming" with. (On another note, yet Vermont related) Although I'd like to consider myself a die-hard fan with the best o' them, the problem is I've never had the experience of taking in a FrüShow! It's a bit of a pain; the 3 times Früvous played in the state all were at the same 21+ venue. It bites for us under-agedly types. Now, I'm not sure what the normal size of venue Frü normally plays at, but I've been meaning to write a letter to someone (the band's management?) to convice them it'd be swell if the band could make a stop by central VT and play at Montpelier's Emerald City nightclub. It's pretty small, and if the redneck population is down that evening, we may be able to warm up Frü's perception of the ol' Green Mountain State. From what I gather, there were people acting stupid and drunk by the time the Drinking Song rolled around at a past concert, ruining "the magic" for everyone. But, I wasn't there, and don't want to judge. Just some random thoughts.... - -Christopher (Christophrü) >Fiona supplied us with: >by Kim Hughes >(snip) >These are fans who think nothing of driving to Toronto from Vermont or >New Hampshire to attend the annual Moxy Fr¸vous convention (yes, >really),>etc. > >What a proud day for us Ver-monters (Nate, take a bow) -- we've been >exemplified over every other state!!! (apologies to the recently >disgruntled Delawarian!) >Okay, so Vermont comes across as an obscure example, but I'll take it! > >tamra, yay for Stamford Vt, human pop. 683, 215 canines (registered), >plenty 'o moose for everyone! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:56:28 -0400 From: "Tim Deegan" Subject: waytogodave : D this is cool! me like already. maybe you could like, make sections for different kinds of Dave pics. ie, Dave wearing a hat, or Dave looking kinda stoned (i happen to have an *exellent* pic of this sort... although i'm in it too... *g*). i dunno, just a suggestion. :) Maggie "You've gotta burn to shine" -- Ben Lee ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 18:50:47 -0400 From: Fiona Subject: Re: Beachfest, Sept. 6 I suppose coming out and saying "I'm coming" would be one of the more obvious statements in Früdom. Assume I said it. That said, I'm bringing a blanket, and might even be able to gather up a few munchies if I wake up in time to think of these things. So I'll reserve some sitting space for a couple of Fruheads, somewhere vaguely in the middle of the hill. Large, grassy hillside surrounds the .. well, large gazebo, which was used as the stage 2 years ago. At that point, the two or three before Früvous did not encourage a lot of dancing.. (let's face it, Dayna Manning, all alone with that guitar, doesn't inspire much energy) so immediately before Fruvous came up the grass in front of the stage somehow became filled with standing young people, ready to dance. (Amazing how that happens, isn't it? We won't talk about what happened after Fruvous went away and GBS prepared to come on.) There will be a lot of people so plan to come early. Last time around, some of the artists agreed to sit and sign autographs at a table. I'd guess that Fruvous will be on somewhere around 2 o'clock. This pretty much fits with what Veronica has said. And prepare to enjoy Tal.. his appearance at Beachfest was mentioned in an ad in this week's NOW and I was glad to hear it. Although.. word of warning. This year seems much more scaled to the top 40 crowd (ok maybe not Jeff Healey) than the last time around, and Tal in particular is a hot draw right now. If you want to be right up in front, you will probably have to work hard to maintain your position. It's not like you'll have to sit through anyone terrible though. Jeff Healey is immensely talented, and Moist are great. Ok.. directions. I've done this before. I should be able to remember it again. Driving directions? *snicker* if *you* really want to try and find a place to park somewhere near Queen Street on Labour Day (and others of the main streets will be taken up with the annual parade) go right ahead. You'll get lost doing it though, so I'll let you figure things out yourself. TTC. Get yourself to the Bloor-Danforth line (that's east-west) and go east to Woodbine. Get on the 92 bus which is available from the station and go south to Queen Street East. Walk east a bit until you see a park (and probably the Mix 99 van) on your right. Follow the music to the stage. The 92 doesn't travel very often.. last time I ended up walking from Woodbine. Long walk, but I do these things. Another way to do it.. especially if you're coming from the south like those coming from Union Station (hi Richard!) or would like less waiting time. On the Yonge side of the Yonge/University line is Queen Station, 2 stops above Union. Get a transfer from one of the red machines with the time on them before you get to Queen, you'll probably need it to get on the bus/streetcar, whatever it is that runs along Queen Street East. I think it's a streetcar, don't quote me. It's a long ride to Kew Gardens, ask the nice driver to tell you when to get off, and bring a book. Or enjoy the scenery.. Queen Street's very interesting. I'm going to try going from Queen Station this time, so if anyone wants to meet up at the handy Designated Waiting Area (the DWA has extra lights and a little speaker so you can talk to the ticket collector) on the Southbound platform, e-mail me. Looking forward to the long weekend (would anyone like to come and temp for my pneumonia-stricken partner? It would help me relax a little) Fiona - -- After all, it's extremely difficult to be a successful band without appealing to the masses, and it's hard to appeal to the masses if they've never heard of you. - Cookie ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #771 ********************************************