From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #720 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Thursday, August 19 1999 Volume 03 : Number 720 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Fruhead.com nearing 500... [chad schrock ] Re: Fruhead.com nearing 500... [ross_hendry@bigfoot.com (Ross Hendry)] Re: Are You Alt? [chad schrock ] Button Update [Chad Maloney ] Thanks from a new fan [bimp@mindspring.com (J. Calvin Smith)] Re: Im a Troll [Geenius at Wrok ] the woody guthrie style of hat? [sugarfly26@aol.com (SugarFly26)] Re: Im a Troll [Chad Maloney ] Re: Waves..... [Lynne ] Re: Initial Thoughts on Thornhill [limezinger@aol.commmmmmmm (star shaped] are you an "alt"? ["Tim Deegan" ] Re: are you an "alt"? [sugarfly26@aol.com (SugarFly26)] Re: Fruvous Acrostics. ["Kate Leahy" ] Re: the woody guthrie style of hat? [jkpolk@ntplx.net (Andrea Krause)] Re: jian is a good guy ["Leah Bender" ] Re: Are You Alt? [Tom Salyers ] Re: Thornhill contraversy waiting to happen [cookie ] Re: Are You "Alt"? [cookie ] Re: OT: Christine Lavin ( [Uncle Waltie ] Re: Are You "Alt"? [cookie ] Re: Pet Shop Boys (was: Are You "Alt"?) [Christine K ] Re: Thornhill contraversy waiting to happen [Fiona ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:34:05 -0400 From: chad schrock Subject: Re: Fruhead.com nearing 500... Ross Hendry wrote: > Silly me! I just went to register and entered www.fhdc.com as the > addy! Got a bit of a fright there! :-) You don't like the dentist then? :) - -- chad at radix dot net fweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:36:41 GMT From: ross_hendry@bigfoot.com (Ross Hendry) Subject: Re: Fruhead.com nearing 500... On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:34:05 -0400, chad schrock wrote: > > >Ross Hendry wrote: > >> Silly me! I just went to register and entered www.fhdc.com as the >> addy! Got a bit of a fright there! :-) > >You don't like the dentist then? > >:) > EEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! Ross PS That was supposed to be a drill btw... It's the Galaxies Greatest Comic, Now check out it's web site! http://www.cybergoth.net/tuws/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:35:41 -0400 From: chad schrock Subject: Re: Are You Alt? Ken Perschke wrote: > > Ken postulated > > Inter/Intra (not sure here) Continental Ballistic Missile, no? > > It would be InterContinental Ballistic Missile which can go > > across oceans. IntraContinental would mean we'd be bombing > > ourselves or Canada, since the US bases most of "ours" in > > thw south western part of the country. andi > > I thought that was it, thanks! Although, you never know when bombing > ourselves could come in handy... :) We have Hollywood for that. They drop bombs on us all the time.... - -- chad at radix dot net Should I have put a pun warning in here somewhere? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:06:24 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Button Update Ok, all you unknown Fruheads out there. Along with getting off my butt and working on the FAQ, I've also gotten off my butt and ordered a reprint of the old buttons. I ordered 250 of them, so we should have them for awhile. So you can get yourself a button to identify newsgroup people at shows! I did put up money up front to do this. I have no idea what I should do about getting that money back. I'm thinking maybe I'll get Josh to add me to his FHDC donations stuff to include the buttons. Does that make sense to people? What the button looks like: http://www.fruvous.com/miscpics/frupin.gif I think the guy on the other end of the ordering of the buttons is gonna redo the text to make it look better though. I said that was ok, because he sounded nice. To get your new old alt.music.moxy-fruvous - Have modem will travel button, email me. I'll send you info on what to do to get a button. Button are free of charge of course. - Chad ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:43:38 GMT From: bimp@mindspring.com (J. Calvin Smith) Subject: Thanks from a new fan Hi! I'm not a regular here, nor a lurker--but I wanted to thank all the Fruheads I met last night at Ram's Head for helping make it a really, really, REALLY entertaining evening. Also thanks to Chad S. (and Kathleen Foran, from parts elsewhere) for turning me onto this group. I haven't enjoyed a concert, I don't think, more than I liked this one. (Of course, I'm 42, and memory loss occurs frequently ;) but I'm sure this was one of the best I've ever seen/heard.) Oh, if anyone *does* know who that opening singer was, I liked him, too. It was a full evening of very good music. J. Calvin "Bimp" Smith ___ Hello. I'm Bimp. bimp@toad.net /O_O\ I am not a troublemaker. Sorry. http://www.toad.net/~bimp \_=_/ In fact, Mom says trouble is boeiotetically sealed | | bored with me. (Sigh.) for your protection I'll say more later. p u t a b i m p o n t h e b o t t o m o f i t -- tks cjd ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:36:39 -0400 From: Geenius at Wrok Subject: Re: Im a Troll On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Chad Maloney wrote: > Geenius at Wrok wrote: > > > On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Chad Maloney wrote: > > > > > Troll is an ancient USEnet term created by thoughtful USEnet > > > engineers. > > > > First of all, "Usenet" is not an acronym for anything. > > I'm sorry. Did I say "USEnet is an acronym for something" in my post? No, but a lot of people write "USEnet" or "USENET," as if the letters stood for something, and they don't. "Usenet" is a portmanteau of "users' network." It doesn't even have InterCaps. - -- "I wish EVERY day could be a shearing festival!" -- The 10 Commandments =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Keith Ammann is geenius@albany.net "I notice you have a cloud of doom. Live with honor, endure with grace I must admit it makes you seem www.albany.net/~geenius * Lun Yu 2:24 dangerous and sexy." ------------------------------ Date: 19 Aug 1999 23:50:15 GMT From: sugarfly26@aol.com (SugarFly26) Subject: the woody guthrie style of hat? a friend of mine and i have been asking around about this one for awhile, like since we first heard lowest highest point...in it one of the guys says (about the audience member who knows the answer) 'hes got the woody guthrie style of hat...' whats the woody guthrie style of hat?? feeling young and confused once again, - ----------> Ln :o) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:59:20 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: Im a Troll Geenius at Wrok wrote: > No, but a lot of people write "USEnet" or "USENET," as if the letters > stood for something, and they don't. "Usenet" is a portmanteau of "users' > network." It doesn't even have InterCaps. Ah, ok. I'm sorry to confuse people. > -- > "I wish EVERY day could be a shearing festival!" -- The 10 Commandments I was wondering, what does EVERY stand for? I'm not familiar with that acronym. - Chad (snark snark) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:45:31 GMT From: Lynne Subject: Re: Waves..... If we're talking requests... lazy boy would be cool at BG... Who am I kifdding? It's just too cool that they will be in BG! lynne, counting the days > Or maybe Bed & Breakfast and bringing back Nuits for, say... >Harbourfront? *HINT* *g* Personally, anything from the second half of >Wood would be great, considering some of us have only heard 5 songs from >that album ;) ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 1999 00:31:39 GMT From: limezinger@aol.commmmmmmm (star shaped) Subject: Re: Initial Thoughts on Thornhill i finally got my copy today .. hehe.. blam ewber for being so late ;) ... anyway. splatter splatter and hate letter are tied as my favourite. i keep going back and forth on here -- track 7 to track 10, back to 7, back to 10... oh man, they're great. like the rest of the album too. ;) but. sarah linnellgirl@tmbg.org http://members.aol.com/limezinger "...each month i'd feel my body become fertile and i'd say, 'no, i choose not to have a baby. oh! rent's due.' " ~dave, kids in the hall ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:52:06 -0400 From: "Tim Deegan" Subject: are you an "alt"? probly ammf reference. but uh, that would make an awesome button for us "alts" to recognize each other. are you an alt? cool! way to go Dave (dot com). j/k. Maggie "Befriend the puffins... before the puffins attack!" -- Jian ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 1999 01:16:27 GMT From: sugarfly26@aol.com (SugarFly26) Subject: Re: are you an "alt"? >that would make an awesome button for us >"alts" to recognize each other. are you an alt? lol, thatd be pretty cool...if i dont get an ammf button, i might just have to steal maggies idea and make my own are you an alt button... :) - ------> Ln ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:52:43 -0400 From: "Kate Leahy" Subject: Re: Fruvous Acrostics. >"MoxyMorons" was the name for Fru fans before Fruheads. Its not my invention, >though I love the name. Well, umm . . . hmm. I don't know that this is the same thing. From what I've heard, the people who were calling themselves Moxy Morons were a rather limited group of teenagers from the Montreal area who used to make it a point to go to shows and act as obnoxious as possible. I've heard that the band actually used to have to tell them to quiet down. Do I consider myself a Frühead? Sometimes :). Do I consider myself a Moxy Moron? Certainly not. ~~Kate - -- Kate Leahy kleahy@loyola.edu katiewow@fruhead.com *********************************** "It's a long long road It's a big big world We are wise wise women We are giggling girls . . . " - --Ani DiFranco *********************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 01:18:46 GMT From: jkpolk@ntplx.net (Andrea Krause) Subject: Re: the woody guthrie style of hat? On 19 Aug 1999 23:50:15 GMT, sugarfly26@aol.com (SugarFly26) wrote: >a friend of mine and i have been asking around about this one for awhile, like >since we first heard lowest highest point...in it one of the guys says (about >the audience member who knows the answer) 'hes got the woody guthrie style of >hat...' whats the woody guthrie style of hat?? > >feeling young and confused once again, >----------> Ln :o) Well at that show we were standing with the LHP guy, who I believe is named David (?) and it was a sort of black fisherman's cap sort of thing, except I remember it being a bit more rigid and bellboy-hat-ish. Gee my lovely analogies are making it SO much clearer, aren't they?? Think Fiddler on the Roof or something... Andrea - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Moxy Früvous is a trust exercise." - Mike Ford 1/1/99 Pumpkins, Cookies, Tapes, and The Früvous Dance: http://users.ntplx.net/~jkpolk - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 01:57:42 GMT From: "Leah Bender" Subject: Re: jian is a good guy >Despite the fact that she kept stealing my Pikachu, the girl's a >natural-born FruHead. I hope to see here at a show again! :D I showed Hillary these posts about her, and she asked if she could say something to you guys... so here's a little letter she wrote and I pasted into this e-mail: - ------- Hi Yes Kat seeing Murray did make my day. Kim I am happy your Pikachu surrvived. Other Kim, I like your Fru Picture album. Thanks to Psycho Mike my Friends call me Clorine woman. To Dave lovers: I tried to get him but I ended up with a hurting toe. Also I tried that yogurt thing the other day and I ended up eating most of the yogurt. I like peach! It didn't make a "Fruvous" sound. It made a "Splatter Splatter". Leah had to clean up the "Splatter Splatter". I ate popcorn. That was the last peach yogurt in the house, too. Thanks for talking about me and my toe still hurts. Hillary - ------- - -Bender - ------------------------------------------------------------ * http://www.bombdiggity.com/ * Yeah, baby, YEAH! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 01:50:25 GMT From: Tom Salyers Subject: Re: Are You Alt? Josh Drury wrote: > Yup. The "Intra-continental" ones are the ones aimed up north. The > governor (or perhaps a senator) from North Dakota once "joked" about > having a lot of missles stationed in that state, which could easily be > given less long range targets, as a means to resolve a petty > grain-subsidy dispute. Canadians were not impressed. "Oh, I wish I was blowing up Prince Edward Island And going on to bomb Ontario The destruction of Canada and all its culture Is by far my favorite scenario..." --Tom Servo MST3K - -- | "I could really use to lose my Catholic conscience Tom Salyers | Cuz I'm sick of feeling guilty all the time Denver, CO | I won't abuse it--yeah, I've got the best intentions | For a little bit of anarchy but not the hurting kind." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:45:34 -0700 From: cookie Subject: Re: Thornhill contraversy waiting to happen Josh Drury wrote: > > Each member of a manufactured band needs three things: > > 1) A decent voice. > 2) Good looks. > 3) A marketable personality, and stage presence. A really great band that falls into the "manufactured" category is the Monkees. So what if they were hired as actors and became a band later? And does anyone really care now that they didn't write all of their songs, or play all the instruments on their first albums? Nah. They're still the MONKEES!!!! I'm sorry, but I also like the Spice Girls. They do what they do very well, and they have a healthy sense of self-mockery. So, please don't compare them to the Stones or anyone else equally dissimilar. That would be kind of "like comparing Star Trek to the NASA space program" (to quote Mickey Dolenz when someone compared the Monkees to the Beatles.) Cookie-doodle ...having a VERY strange day today, and kind of looking forward to it being tomorrow. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:04:59 -0700 From: cookie Subject: Re: Are You "Alt"? Gruneberg Veronica J wrote: > > Oh lord, I'm feeling old... you've never heard of the Pet Shop Boys??!!! > And now that I've said that, can I think of a single one of their cheesy > 80's songs? Nooooooo..... > > :) Veronica "West End Girls" ring a bell? Cookie My apologies for redundancy if someone already posted this. I'm not getting all the messages these days...but then, it's a weird day. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:58:52 -0700 From: cookie Subject: Re: Are You "Alt"? Jordan Q. Doe wrote: > > he drew an arrow and > wrote "Pet Shop Boy." > I don't get that.. This is too weird. (Did I mention I'm having a weird day?) Two days ago a friend of mine invited me to see the Pet Shop Boys in Vegas on Halloween! I haven't even THOUGHT about that band in years, and now twice in one week they're brought to my attention. Guess I'd better go to Vegas, eh? It should prove to be a sparkly show AND audience! Cookie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:54:46 -0400 From: Uncle Waltie Subject: Re: OT: Christine Lavin ( Gordon Nash wrote: > > >That must've been a short stint for Cheryl - they never recorded together. > >Are there any other shifting Babes? I believe Mary Travers is an honorary Babe. She's sung with them, but I don't know if she ever was an official Babe. - -walt - -- It's wrong to wish on space hardware. -Billy Bragg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:54:08 -0700 From: cookie Subject: Re: Are You "Alt"? Dorky Spice wrote: > > In article <37BC4B15.83A81843@fruhead.com>, chadm@fruhead.com says... > "Alt" is also a Latinate root - as in the Spanish "alto/a" meaning high > or tall, and the word "altitude." In other words, he may have been asking > if you were high... HA HA HA HA HA!!!! > > Usually when they sign stuff, they pick something out that they have > > gleaned from you. Or they just make crap up. > > I'm still trying to figure out why he signed my Live Noise poster (at the > Roxy, back in January) with "I love grunge!". Perhaps you were wearing flannel that day? I SWEAR it's still a cool thing to wear...isn't it? It's just so darn comfortable. (Hopelessly groping for some validation on my wardrobe of choice.) Cookie ... Still having a weird day. Too bad I'm not getting my work done. Is it tomorrow yet? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 02:10:12 GMT From: Christine K Subject: Re: Pet Shop Boys (was: Are You "Alt"?) Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote: >Oh lord, I'm feeling old... you've never heard of the Pet Shop Boys??!!! >And now that I've said that, can I think of a single one of their cheesy >80's songs? Nooooooo..... Am I the only one who can think of two of their songs right off the top of my head? *thinks back to 1986*...."West End Girls" and "Opportunities (Let's Make Lots of Money)." :) And why do I only contribute to discussions concerning the 80s? ;) /me puts on her 'Feed the World' t-shirt and her Duran Duran pins. maybe I should just hang out in alt.fan.duran-duran instead *g* Christine. - --Chrissy_K on irc ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* You know how you always see single shoes on the side of the road and always think "What kind of idiot loses a *shoe* right in the middle of nowhere??" Well, ask yourself no longer... ;P - MC ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 02:10:33 GMT From: jkpolk@ntplx.net (Andrea Krause) Subject: Re: Pet Shop Boys (was: Are You "Alt"?) On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 02:10:12 GMT, Christine K wrote: > >Am I the only one who can think of two of their songs right off the >top of my head? *thinks back to 1986*...."West End Girls" and >"Opportunities >(Let's Make Lots of Money)." :) >Christine. >--Chrissy_K on irc >~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > I loved their cover of Go West, though I think that was in the 90s. :) Andrea - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Crass me up, baby!" - Mike Ford 11/14/98 Pumpkins, Cookies, Tapes, and The Früvous Dance: http://users.ntplx.net/~jkpolk - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:24:28 -0400 From: Uncle Waltie Subject: Re: OT: Christine Lavin (Was: Deb grounded for life) Donna Hunt wrote: > > timiny wrote: > > > Also, does anyone know anything about Christine Lavin? > > A friend of mine got a CD of hers and he really digs it, > > but I haven't heard much of her music. She's playing at > > the Ram's Head in Annapolis on September 11 which is > > a Saturday so it'd be easy for me to get there from > > Fairfax, VA without having to worry about being out > > too late. Any comments on her music? > > She's great! A real treat live, as well. I'd love to be able to see her more > often. She's clever, witty, funny, political and talented. I say GO SEE HER! > :) I can't say enough good things about Christine. I've seen her six times (seven in October!!). She's amazing. And she ends every performance with a baton twirling exhibition. She used to twirl flaming batons, but has had to switch to batons with glow-in-the-dark tips in recent years. She also does quirky things like having a Christine Lavin lending library. She gives books she's read recently to audience members if they promise to pass the book along to someone else after they've read it. Go see her if at all possible. - -walt - -- It's wrong to wish on space hardware. -Billy Bragg ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 1999 02:58:56 GMT From: wbsmiles@aol.com (Wbsmiles) Subject: Re: Waves..... > >If we're talking requests... lazy boy would be cool at BG... Who am I >kifdding? It's just too cool that they will be in BG! >lynne, counting the days Lynne, Wish you were in VA/DC today - we had Lazy Boy at the Pentagon City instore this evening! Smiles, Wendy ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 1999 02:41:20 GMT From: mindunit@aol.com (Mind Unit) Subject: Re: Borders L- Street reviews (quick) Really amazing to see the Früvi live...I cut out of work and drove downtown from Clinton, MD and it was SO worth the trip. I have been listening to the 3 CDs I could find since the All Things Considered interview last year. Glad they finally came back to my city, Washington DC. I bought the other 3 CDs and a T-shirt. A Frühead is born?! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:27:54 -0400 From: Geenius at Wrok Subject: Re: Im a Troll On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Chad Maloney wrote: > Geenius at Wrok wrote: > > > "I wish EVERY day could be a shearing festival!" -- The 10 Commandments > > I was wondering, what does EVERY stand for? I'm not familiar with > that acronym. "Even V.E. [Day], Rosh [ha-Shanah] and Yom [Kippur]." - -- "I wish EVERY day could be a shearing festival!" -- The 10 Commandments =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Keith Ammann is geenius@albany.net "I notice you have a cloud of doom. Live with honor, endure with grace I must admit it makes you seem www.albany.net/~geenius * Lun Yu 2:24 dangerous and sexy." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:36:46 -0400 From: Fiona Subject: Re: Thornhill contraversy waiting to happen I luv you Chad! *grin* (The following post would not have happened if Chad had not posted. Direct all flames to him ;) Actually Josh spoke many truths as well. However.. normally I wouldn't do this here but hey I posted about Moxy Früvous on BSBIntellectuals yesterday (Laugh if you feel like it. It's a refuge for fans who actually possess more brains than hormones) so tit-for-tat. I'd call Backstreet Boys "groomed", in the manner of the old Motown stables, instead of "manufactured". This is, after all, a group of 3 old friends and 2 cousins. Putting 3 and 2 together involved some label intervention but this wasn't a group involved in a major audition process like NKOTB or Take That, or well name a major "boy band". > The problems at least I have with those style of bands are that > they aren't 3 guys that played music out of their garage, struggled > on the bar and club circuit until magic happened. Um yeah. At the same time, I wouldn't accuse any of the boy bands of not paying some form of dues. Different kind of dues maybe.. high school tours and small gay clubs (this is not a slur, it's just a fact that most boy bands start off by building a fan base in the gay community) and a couple of years of touring that usually ends up with the youngest member in the hospital or at least ordered offstage for a couple of weeks, but dues nonetheless. > Note that none of the above mentions talent at all. Each individual > member of a manufactured band has talent or else they would not have > passed the numerous auditions for the band. I'm going to back Josh up here. Anyone from the UK who saw the documentary on Upside Down (a boy band created FOR the documentary.. albeit one that didn't last all that long, even though they did have a top 10 hit) knows exactly how stupid the industry ca be. Talent is Not Required. In fact BSB is an aberration in that they have 5 members who can all carry lead vocals, without computer enhancement of any kind. (Unless you personally have also heard them sing a cappella from 5 feet away and have a different opinion, assume I've heard whatever you have to say before and save it.) In some ways (stop laughing Jian) having to do all their development and musical maturing in front of the whole world must be just as hard. Poor Nick Carter has to live with the fact that his unreliable entering-puberty voice is on record, and 60 million people have it. I'm sure there were days he just wanted to hide under the stage (there were days *I* wished he had hidden under the stage). After an album or so of having songs custom written for them, they now have to compete with these same people to record their own songs. "Hey it's good, but it's not as good as these 10 from the guy who's written all your hits and had years of experience" isn't something that guys who practice in their garage usually have to hear when they submit demos for their own albums. And if some session guitarist sits in with a band on a TV appearance and a member of the band tells him repeatedly during rehearsal that he's out of tune I doubt that say, Dave Matheson is going to get "Who the hell does this kid think he is?" while Kevin Richardson did. (The guitarist had to eat his words. *grin*) Anyway.. I have no conclusion, but I think I made my point. Fiona - -- "Wait, maybe the whole BAND is a conspiracy! Worth looking into, eh? What if they're really just... plummers? Plummers who bum around lip-synching for us stupid Canadians ;) Yeah, that's it." -hKath ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #720 ********************************************