From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #681 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Tuesday, August 10 1999 Volume 03 : Number 681 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: The Balad of My Poor Generation [Groovy Spice ] Re: Thronhill Samples [jbardhan@demon.ceh.servtech.com (Neil Bardhan)] Re: whine whine whine [Chad Maloney ] Re: OT: Dick of Dick's Pick [Chad Maloney ] Happy Thornhill Day... ["Jill Hufnagel" ] fourth time through! ["reba" ] Thornhill in my hot little hands... [mocksie@aol.com (Mysterious Mocksie)] Thornhill! ["Lindsay Lion" ] Re: quill? [Josh Drury ] 2-for-1s (Was OT: Dick of Dick's Pick) [Tim Cain ] Re: Newsflash about "C" [timiny ] Re: Happy Thornhill Day... [Josh Drury ] RE: Thornhill! ["Vokes, Laurie" ] Thornhill Woohee [maddhatter@my-deja.com] Re: i'm BACK!!! and i have questions... [Groovy Spice ] Re: Happy Thornhill Day... [Groovy Spice ] Re: Thornhill! [jbardhan@demon.ceh.servtech.com (Neil Bardhan)] Re: C Album Predictions . . . [trace@frumail.org (Trace)] Re: Happy Thornhill Day... [Josh Drury ] TMBgirl checking in with a few things... [tmbgirl@juno.com] Re: Tape Trees (was Re: OT: Dick of Dick's Pick) ["Erring" ] What are the chances.... [poingly1@aol.com (Poingly1)] Not really fair ["Cara (Laika) Kozack" ] Re: whine whine whine [srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead.com)] Re: Thornhill! [gingee@my-deja.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 15:26:09 GMT From: Groovy Spice Subject: Re: The Balad of My Poor Generation argh. "ballad." *sigh* *************************************************** Airborne with nothing to land on... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 15:50:15 GMT From: jbardhan@demon.ceh.servtech.com (Neil Bardhan) Subject: Re: Thronhill Samples On 10 Aug 1999 15:24:18 GMT, merguez@aol.com (Merguez) wrote: >evening... Here's something to tie you over 'til then. www.cdnow.com has song >samples of the album on-line. the first 5 tracks have real audio 30 second >samples. Odd is that I did an Album Title search for Thornhill and came up with some easy listening/jazz/pop/whatever "Thornhill Orchestra" CD immediately. Doing a search for Früvous, though, I got it. How bizah. And saw no samples. Will try again now. :) Neil Neil Bardhan: stage manager,tape trader,CTY Nevermore,Libertarian,and nice guy http://www.servtech.com/~jbardhan/ Smile at every person you see ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:56:51 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: whine whine whine Lawrence P Solomon wrote: > it's a rock venue. Moxy Fruvous are not, strictly speaking, a "rock" band. > I'm even surprised that They Might Be Giants seem to fit in at the 9:30 club. > But for a band like Fruvous, where the quality of the sound really matters, a > place like the 9:30 club won't cut it. It has terrible acoustics, and I've > been in very few places with worse sound systems. I saw them there in > February and, honestly, there's something that doesn't sound right when The > Drinking Song is blasting through huge speakers right in front of you, and the > crowd isn't exactly the quietest in the world... that's just one example... > there were other songs where the setup bothered me, too... Really? I loved the 9:30 Club show. I was up in front of the balcony and the show was terrific. I felt like I was at a rock show and it was working and I was loving it. The sound system was doing well to me up there (albeit I was right on top of the soundboard so I was hearing what Cal was hearing pretty closely). I wouldn't mind them playing there again if they don't think they need a bigger place in DC now. - Chad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:07:01 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: OT: Dick of Dick's Pick Erring wrote: > Even the 2for1 (or tape tax as I call it) is an unethical way to trade. > This is something that I have seen (although not too often) from Moxy > Fruvous traders. Something, imho, which is far worse than a tape tree. I don't want to start this debate here, but yeah, 2 for 1 trades really irk a couple people on this list off a lot. I know of 3 really vocal opponents of it on this list alone (and we usually dredge up the topic on the tmbg-list since there are people over there who think because they taped the show or acquired a tape of the show that they deserve to be compensated with blank tapes). Blank and postage trades happen a lot behind the scenes, but we try to not keep them on the front of the newsgroup less the newsgroup turn into "I need a PHAT dub of the 10/17/98 NKU. Hook me us D00dZ". > Again, I would never do anything the band did not authorize or approve. > I am, of course, disappointed as Moxy Fruvous is such a great live band > (studio albums great too). I hope that Moxy Fruvous changes their policy > and I of course apologize to the band for not first checking into their tape > trading policy. It's ok. As one of the Fruvous tapers (there are quite a few and rest easy knowing that a large percentage of the shows are archived for the ages and are very high quality), my opinion of taping is that the band allows it but doesn't want it to get out of hand. Unchecked spreading of artists work without due compensation is kinda scary to the artist that makes their living off their work. Yes, there are intangibles like people who hear good live tapes and buy the albums, but it takes a lot of faith to get to that point. One on one trading there is a little more accountability and get to knowing someone. There's a little more work involved as well and that will more than likely keep tape distribution in check for a bit. Maybe that works and maybe it doesn't, but it at least keeps me from worrying about it so much *grin* - Chad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:22:30 GMT From: "Jill Hufnagel" Subject: Happy Thornhill Day... Hey there all well I wanted to post this last night becuse I was just so excited, but my computer was being a pain i my ass so I went to bed. Well I'd just like to wish everyone a Happy Thornhill Day!!! I wish I could be with all of you in Rochester...I think that all of us that can't make it feel that way. Well everybody have a good time and give a good listen for me OK... I'm there in spirit...You go boy, good Job:) **Jiel** _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:23:11 GMT From: "reba" Subject: fourth time through! Well, I stayed up all night since we don't have anywhere open at midnight (i checked) and I called everywhere to see if they had it. The responses made me very nervous, so I was there when doors opened... And I have listened to it about 4 times in a row! Perfect music for a depressing day... ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 1999 16:40:35 GMT From: mocksie@aol.com (Mysterious Mocksie) Subject: Thornhill in my hot little hands... I have 6 words to say about Thornhill... Thornhill is like a good sneeze. Here's to a job well done, lads. I'll see you Friday at South Street Seaport! - -Mocksie "By a stream of running water, I heard you laugh. I closed my eyes for an hour and a half, and tried to make you appear. I swear in the beauty of the setting sun, you were here." ~Moxy Fruvous~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:35:55 -0500 From: "Lindsay Lion" Subject: Thornhill! Well, my local cd store was having trouble with the distributor to get the Album in, so I went to a price-hiker cd store and got the last copy - after the clerk looked at me like I was from mars. All I can say is - wow. wow wow wow. The album is amazing - -- - --- Lindsay Lion Manager of Operations & Technology Biosyn, Inc. llion@biosyn-inc.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:04:37 -0500 From: Josh Drury Subject: Re: quill? timiny wrote: > >um, i didn't get my Quill, either... Nope, me neither... are the Quills coming to Canada two weeks late as well? Maybe I can just blame Canada Post. I tnink if the phrase "going postal" had originated in Canada, it would mean something like "enjoying a relaxing nap" or something like that. We have none of the unbearably high standards on our postal system that you Statesians enjoy. Well, enough griping for today, enjoy your albums if you're where you can get 'em... Josh Drury Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:51:35 GMT From: Tim Cain Subject: 2-for-1s (Was OT: Dick of Dick's Pick) >>Even the 2for1 (or tape tax as I call it) is an unethical way to trade. This is something that I have seen (although not too often) from Moxy Fruvous traders. Something, imho, which is far worse than a tape tree.<< Point 'em out so we can string 'em up! Seriously, this has NEVER been my experience. The Fruvous traders are even more obnoxiously courteous than the Zappa community, which is downright militant about its 'no 2-for-1s' and 'don't sell tapes' mandates. In fact, when I've TRIED to hand extra tapes or cash to Fruvous traders -- for their trouble, if nothing else -- they've thrown cash back in my face, and taken the extra tapes and filled them up with more stuff. There are plenty of people willing to trade (or help out by starting newbies). Ignore those 2-for-1 folks around here. And by the way, isn't fruhead.com the coolest thing on the Web since .... ummm, FDC? - --tc tcain1@webmart.net "What Demi Moore does is not acting." -- Helen Mirren ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:28:54 -0800 From: timiny Subject: Re: Newsflash about "C" Does this mean that theoretically, they could have as many albums as there are letters in the alphabet? Even assuming they never use the title "A", after "B" and "C" that's 23 more funny albums to go! They have a lot of work on their plates! - -Matt, anxiously awaiting "Z" * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:14:57 -0500 From: Josh Drury Subject: Re: Happy Thornhill Day... Jill Hufnagel wrote: > Hey there all well I wanted to post this last night becuse I was just so > excited, but my computer was being a pain i my ass so I went to bed. > Well I'd just like to wish everyone a Happy Thornhill Day!!! Everyone? Even us poor folks stranded in our igloos in Norlandia, deprived of our albums by the cruelness of fate? No! For us, Thornhill Day is two weeks away, but it may as well be an eternity! Why have you forsaken us? WHY?!? The bitterest man in the world, Josh "Vegemite" Drury ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:01:28 GMT From: "Vokes, Laurie" Subject: RE: Thornhill! I got my copy for the local CD shop and the clerk said " I was wondering if any Fruvous fans would come out of the wood work for this album." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:32:43 GMT From: maddhatter@my-deja.com Subject: Thornhill Woohee Well, i was down the Jersey shore this weekend, and i just got back this morning and ran straight to the local Borders to get Thornhill...I'm currently enjoying my fruvously enhanced day. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:43:27 GMT From: Groovy Spice Subject: Re: i'm BACK!!! and i have questions... In article <37B0346E.77A8EC8B@fruhead.com>, Chad Maloney wrote: > I dunno if this has officially come down yet, but I've heard the first > single is gonna be I Will Hold On. they said this today on WBER. peace, ellen *************************************************** Airborne with nothing to land on... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:10:05 GMT From: Kate Leahy Subject: C Album Predictions . . . I can't believe no one's made any suggestions as to what the track list for this C Album might be :). Hmm . . . I'm gonna go with Pisco as a definite. Marion Früvous, perhaps? Cross-Border Shopping? Get Down From There? *gasp* Kissinjah!? Someone mentioned Killer Tents . . . Whaddya all think? ~~Kate === kate leahy kleahy@loyola.edu katiewow@fruhead.com "they don't eat meat . . . how strong can they be? - --trevor strong of the arrogant worms on früvous _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:22:37 GMT From: Groovy Spice Subject: Re: Happy Thornhill Day... In article <37B05E11.BAF0138@cc.umanitoba.ca>, Josh Drury wrote: > For us, Thornhill Day is two > weeks away, but it may as well be an eternity! Why have you forsaken >us? WHY?!? well, you guys get to have thanksgiving a whole month and a half before *we* do. every year, even. *duck* peace, ellen (it's only fair... ;) *************************************************** Airborne with nothing to land on... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:15:46 GMT From: jbardhan@demon.ceh.servtech.com (Neil Bardhan) Subject: Re: Thornhill! On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:01:28 GMT, "Vokes, Laurie" wrote: >I got my copy for the local CD shop and the clerk >said " I was wondering if any Fruvous fans would come out >of the wood work for this album." That's the way you know that there are cool people working there :) Gnawing out of his woodwork, Neil Neil Bardhan: stage manager,tape trader,CTY Nevermore,Libertarian,and nice guy http://www.servtech.com/~jbardhan/ Smile at every person you see ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:56:10 GMT From: trace@frumail.org (Trace) Subject: Re: C Album Predictions . . . On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:10:05 GMT, Kate Leahy wrote: >I can't believe no one's made any suggestions as to >what the track list for this C Album might be :). >Hmm . . . I'm gonna go with Pisco as a definite. >Marion Früvous, perhaps? Cross-Border Shopping? Get >Down From There? *gasp* Kissinjah!? Someone mentioned >Killer Tents . . . >Whaddya all think? I like all of those suggestions Katie. I heartily vote for Get Down From There! I would also like to add Pork Tenderloin to the list. - -- Trace trace@frumail.org "Part of a new, emerging feminist movement." ~Jian commenting on his Brittany Spears t-shirt: 7/24/99 Crisis, Get Help ~Anagram of "The Spice Girls" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:46:16 -0500 From: Josh Drury Subject: Re: Happy Thornhill Day... Groovy Spice wrote: > In article <37B05E11.BAF0138@cc.umanitoba.ca>, > Josh Drury wrote: > > > For us, Thornhill Day is two > > weeks away, but it may as well be an eternity! Why have you forsaken > >us? WHY?!? > > well, you guys get to have thanksgiving a whole month and a half before > *we* do. every year, even. > > *duck* Yeah, I guess so. Thanksigiving originated in the U.S. of America, yet we get it first. And since Moxy Fruvous originated in Canada... Oh, well, I'm happy. Really I am. I get to see consecutive shows for the first time ever, so I'm OK. I'll just breathe into this plastic bag for a while... (thunk) Whoops! I'll try a paper bag. Josh Drury Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 19:06:05 GMT From: tmbgirl@juno.com Subject: TMBgirl checking in with a few things... a few notes. #1 at the show in boulder a couple of months ago, i bought a hat with the "MF" logo on it... i then got it signed by all of the members of the band. where Mike Ford is on one side of the MF and Murry Foster is on the other side. my friends quickly noted that it's kinda dissed to Jian and Dave since their initials aren't "MF" ok. enough of that. just wanted to say that thornhill is excellent. When She Talks, i know i pick on this song a lot (which doesn't mean i don't totally dig it) but it sounds like it should be on one of my "totally 80s" mix tapes, i dunno. next off, i'll no longer be using this addy, it's on a computer that's in Denver, and i now live in NYC. If anyone needs to get in touch with me, please use this new and improved e-mail addy: jaa237@is9.nyu.edu On the same note, i've been trying to unsub myself from the list at this addy but can't... all the e-mails get bounced back to me. can someone please help (as in tell me what to do... or else just unsub me themselves?) THANKS! :D Wanna know the worst part? i'm still moving all my shtuff out to NY so i'm gonna be in denver when they're playing in the city and i'll be there when they come back to boulder :( i'm sending a bunch of my buds to the show in NY and in ocean city so if you see the posse of crazy kids... say hi for me! :D take it easy, JOrdaN http://www2.netcom.com/~arnot/joda/bootlegs.html allright, i'm out... have to run my 10 miles for the day *sigh* ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:30:03 -0400 From: "Erring" Subject: Re: Tape Trees (was Re: OT: Dick of Dick's Pick) Hi Kate: Thanks for the input, I would obviously agree with alot of what you said. Additionally, I am a fan, but not someone who knows what the Fruvous organization is thinking. I know that many more people in this group know more than I do on matters concerning the band's policies and philosophy. I've talked to Jian before about taping (at that point not knowing if they even allowed taping) and I could tell that he was alittle hesitant, but said that as long as people are not profiting (as I noted in one of my earlier posts) the band allows it (at this point). A look the other way approach. I would always respect an artist's wishes, and there are certainly many good reasons not to allow taping let alone tape trees. However, Most likely a person will not tree a tape of a poor show (you don't see many requests for the Dead's performance at Woodstock), so the band would have little to worry about a really bad show getting out there. Additionally, we are talking about a situation where tapes of a particular show are being traded on a one-on-one basis, so the tape is being distributed anyway. The band must already know that a number of people not at the show will hear copies. Therefore, I really dont think that creative integrity should be that much of the equation. On the opposite side, I have noticed that many high quality tapers tend to trade only with high quality tapers. Although, I have seen a number of Fruheads offer to make copies (Blanks and Postage (B&P)) without a trade, many new collectors are left out in the cold without being able to get good quality tapes. A high quality taper who accepts B&P copying realistically cannot accomodate that many new collectors (everyone has either work, school or both and this cant take over our lives). Some beginners are attracted to offers which include a tape tax (2:1), which is something I know the band would not approve of. Treeing allows new collectors to get high quality tapes (that already exist and are being traded on a one-on-one basis), minimizes use of the tape taxing people, and benefits the band (as stated in my previous posts). These are just some of the reasons that I feel treeing is beneficial and why I have administered tape trees in the greatful dead community. I also strongly believe that anyone who enjoys a band and trading tapes should follow the practices and procedures of tape trading for that particular band, less the band decides not to allow taping of the shows at all. In reality, the band need not have any reason for not wanting shows to be tree'd, and I would still respect that. The above is just my $.02. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 19:07:05 GMT From: Kate Leahy Subject: Thornhill Musings . . . I just couldn't bite my tongue anymore :). Well, they've done it. 'Thornhill' has replaced 'Wood' as my favorite Früvous album. The guys have truly outdone themselves, in my opinion. A cohesive, beatifully written, well-produced, masterfully arranged thing, it is. Half As Much: Great opener; energetic and very similar to the live version. The vocal mix here is superb; it's quite the ensemble song, and the mix is generous to each voice. Sad Girl: Slightly up-tempo, which really brings out the beat and the overall feel. Nice piano - it helped a lot live and I think the recorded version benefits from it too. The liner notes make special mention of the piano's restorer; it's sound is gorgeous. Reminiscent of much of 'Wood' orchestrationally. You Can't Be Too Careful: I enjoy this live, and I enjoy it recorded. On my way back to the office from Tower today, they played this on 'XPN. Dave's vocal is *fabulous* and the drums come out a bit in the mix, which is nice. I really like the drum parts in this. I Will Hold On: Two words - backing vocals. Not full-on, but a nice medium. Jian's vocal is passionate and clear. Very, very nice. Earthquakes: Another Dave triumph :). Percussively, shades of Mike hitting the stool with the hammer in "Bittersweet." Unfortunately, no banjo . . . but is that stand-up bass I hear Murr playing? When She Talks: Once again, I stand in defense of this one. I quote Dave: "This is a sweet, sweet song . . ." [1] A bit of distortion on Jian's vocal creates an ethereal mood and a bit of detachment . . . like he's singing it in his head. The mini-solo on electric is an interesting addition :). Splatter, Splatter: Took me back to Video Bargainville. Mike's vocal is pristine and perfect. Not much to say about this one - - it's fantastic. Independence Day: I love this live, and I love it recorded as well. Not much difference from the live version; Murray's vocal is slow and easy and passionate at the same time - it suits the song well. Downsizing: While I like this one, I think it kind of drags a little. It's almost seven minutes long (not to suggest that we Americans have short attention spans :) and Jian's vocal is kind of thin and sometimes difficult to hear clearly. The choruses are high points . . . I dunno. Maybe after I spend more time with it. I'm not surprised they don't do it live often. Hate Letter: The big surprise of the album, and what a lovely surprise it is. Dave shines. Groovy and mellow with harmonies that fill a room . . . Awesome :). If Only You Knew: I have a special place in my heart for this one. It's such a lovely song and backed with such heartfelt emotion . . . the hand claps are a great addition :). My Poor Generation: Good way to end an album like this. More of the "Bittersweet" percussion. Another kick-ass performance out of Dave. He rocks my world. On a side note, has anyone been watching the sales ranking on Amazon? 'Thornhill' jumped from 351 to 284 in a couple of hours. Big things, my friends . . . ~~Kate [1] David Matheson, The Trocadero, Philadelphia, PA, 2.6.99 === kate leahy kleahy@loyola.edu katiewow@fruhead.com "they don't eat meat . . . how strong can they be? - --trevor strong of the arrogant worms on früvous _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 1999 20:03:36 GMT From: poingly1@aol.com (Poingly1) Subject: What are the chances.... What are the chances Moxy will find their way back to Syracuse by the end of 1999, begininng of 2000? I know they tour the area a lot. :P Rude, inappropriate rock music: http://www.mp3.com/poingly ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:12:21 GMT From: "Cara (Laika) Kozack" Subject: Not really fair The release date of Thornhill isn't really fair for Canadian residents. However I understand the dilemma so I will wait it out. Just see everyone else's reaction to it. Oh well, even if I did order online it still wouldn't get here until after August 24 so I will just hope that it will be in Grande Prarie when I get there. Sigh Cara "Remorseful" Kozack ------------------------------ Date: 10 Aug 1999 20:05:48 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.comicrelief (Lori at fruhead.com) Subject: Re: whine whine whine chad argued faintly: >There are actually 15 MD/DC shows on the card. Still only >4 or 5 for you, though. that's some sort of newfangled new math you're using, eh? >Yes, there is a great deal of overlap. But I think that we >can all get along.[1] don't we always? > >> So DC/Annapolis is OURS, dammit. >No, I don't THINK so. I rest my case. :D >[1] at least if you use my definitions. :) there's always a catch, isn't there? - --Lori, still embracing Maria's definitions. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lori@fruhead.com Lori's Strange and Wonderful World: http://members.aol.com/srm9988n/index.html The spiffy, newly updated amm-f FAQ: http://www.fruvous.com/news/faq.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:00:29 GMT From: gingee@my-deja.com Subject: Re: Thornhill! In article <7opkbq$gl6$1@netnews.upenn.edu>, "Lindsay Lion" wrote: > All I can say is - wow. wow wow wow. The album is amazing Lindsay - I agree! My succinct review - Gorgeous, polished, sweet. I sat down and did nothing but listen for 48:24. Very nice work, Guys - thanks! My "Thornhill" acquisition story - Best Buy had promised me on Thursday that they would have it Tuesday a.m. (@$14.99). I got there, it wasn't on the shelf behind the MF marker or misfiled under "Fruvous", or in the "Folk" section - they swore they had it in, but they couldn't find it. They offered to give me a raincheck and call me when they found it - - right! I said, "Thanks, but I'll just go across the street to Barnes and Noble." And they did have ONE copy, for which they charged me $16.99. Well worth it. Cheers! gingee Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #681 ********************************************