From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #633 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Wednesday, July 28 1999 Volume 03 : Number 633 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Kee to Bala [Jihead1@aol.com] Re: Can't Wait for Thornhill! [Jihead1@aol.com] Re: Jian Ghomeshi [Jihead1@aol.com] Re: Prolly So [ChinaCat ] Re: Dave Matheson (was Jian Ghomeshi) [katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin)] Killer Tents [jkpolk@ntplx.net (Andrea Krause)] Re: Can't Wait for Thornhill! ["Wood, Nancy" ] Re: Hi! I'm new also. [Paul Mischler ] Re: Pictures being edited? [katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin)] Re: Myers-Briggs Count Update [katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin)] Re: Jian Ghomeshi ["Erring" ] Re: OC Beach Idea... [katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin)] Re: Myers-Briggs [jkpolk@ntplx.net (Andrea Krause)] Re: ol' fogie-dom! (was Re: Myers-Briggs) [Jihead1@aol.com] probly ["Tim Deegan" ] Mark's comments on Jian ["Tim Deegan" ] myers-briggs ["Tim Deegan" ] Re: Myers-Briggs Count Tangent [timiny ] Re: Neil (was Re: Dave Matheson (was Jian Ghomeshi)) [srm9988n@aol.compos] Re: Dave Matheson (was Jian Ghomeshi) [srm9988n@aol.composter (Lori Marti] Re: Dave Matheson (was Jian Ghomeshi) ["Adam Hartfield" ] LUELLA~*~LUELLA~*~LUELLA~*~LUELLA~*~LUELLA~*~LUELLA. *yes*, I'm talking to YOU. [skystar117@aol.comPHAED] Re: Myers-Briggs Count Update [AngelCL7@aol.com] re: Dave Matheson (was Jian Ghomeshi) [Angie ] Re: OT-Where are you Valerie? [srm9988n@aol.composter (Lori Martin)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:15:40 GMT From: Jihead1@aol.com Subject: Kee to Bala How can I get information on this concert? Lisa Bills ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:32:14 GMT From: Jihead1@aol.com Subject: Re: Can't Wait for Thornhill! In a message dated 7/28/99 5:13:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, srm9988n@aol.composter writes: << And while the temptation to spring to the defense is strong, it would be infinitely more effective if no dignity was lent to the innuendo-filled thread he started. Just don't respond at all. >> Damn, I hate when I get these messages out of order!! Lisa Bills ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:11:12 GMT From: Jihead1@aol.com Subject: Re: Jian Ghomeshi In a message dated 7/28/99 4:45:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vika@ibm.net writes: << If you wish to express disappointment with an instance where Jian treated you rudely,>> After the hell I went through when I first joined the list, I was afraid to meet Jian because of what I was told he might think of me. I've met him twice and HE HAS BEEN VERY SWEET!!! And it seemed he knew exactly who I was. I can't imagine him being rude to anyone!! <> Frankly, I don't think Mark has the "cohones" to do that!! Lisa Bills ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:33:59 GMT From: ChinaCat Subject: Re: Prolly So In article , Melanie wrote: > Wow, do other people say "prolly"? I was abashed when I first "heard" i don't "say" it at all, but i do type it. i'm a terribly lazy typist (in case the lack of caps didn't make the clear ;) but my diction is usually pretty good. peace, ellen *************************************************** Airborne with nothing to land on... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:54:41 -0600 From: katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin) Subject: Re: Dave Matheson (was Jian Ghomeshi) In article <379F6729.CCA5B97F@wwnet.com>, cicero@wwnet.com says... > Dave Matheson is a 160-year-old human alien half-breed who's father was Richard > Wagner. This fact horrifies me. I hope his music doesn't follow the path of his > father's (ugh!) How DARE you insinuate that Dave is half human. All of us loyal Dave- heads know that he's 100% pure alien, and we're deeply offended that anyone would suggest otherwise. And besides, putting his age at 160 would disqualify me from my hard-won "fogie" status. k@ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:40:27 GMT From: jkpolk@ntplx.net (Andrea Krause) Subject: Killer Tents Am I the only one who thought the Killer Tent song sounded like a cross between The Ballad of Dan and TV Weather Guy by the Arrogant Worms? I am? Well, OK, I'll go back to skulking around in the shadows now. :) Andrea - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Moxy Früvous is a trust exercise." - Mike Ford 1/1/99 Pumpkins, Cookies, Tapes, and The Früvous Dance: http://users.ntplx.net/~jkpolk - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:04:15 GMT From: "Wood, Nancy" Subject: Re: Can't Wait for Thornhill! Lori in her infinite wisdom gave us: >>>Pardon the red-herring header -- this post has nothing to do with Thornhill. But once again, we seem to have a troll. And while the temptation to spring to the defense is strong, it would be infinitely more effective if no dignity was lent to the innuendo-filled thread he started. Just don't respond at all. He's not worth the attention.<<< Amen. Thanks Lori, you took the words out of my mouth. The last thing we need to do is encourage further response from him, which putting him on the defensive might result in. None of us want weeks of that sort of crap. On another topic altogether, I scanned 1 pic from FRFF, our view of the Sunday main stage performace. It's at http://www.frontiernet.net/~wood/FRFF.html Nancy - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Nancy Wood "When children learn to count they naturally add and multiply. Subtraction and division are harder to teach them, perhaps because reducing the world is an adult skill." ~Jeanette Winterson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:05:53 GMT From: AngelCL7@aol.com Subject: Re: re I'm new also In a message dated 7/28/99 5:23:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, andi_3k@mailcity.com writes: << Crystal - first of all welcome to this lovely little community we callammf.I liveinBuffalo,NY,not far from you and i have pretty good luck at New World Records on Elmwood Ave near Utica st or at MediaPlay stores. Moxy has been know to do in store appearances at New World Records so personally i like to support them - but places like Record Theatre,Borders,and most of the other music stores in this area will order things for you hope that helps andi >> Thank you for the welcome and thank you for the info on where to find Moxy Fruvous CDs. If u ever hear that they're making a store appearance, will u please tell me? I would love u so much if u did! Thank you again Andi and yes I'm sure this info will help me alot! İLots of luv to everyoneİ ~~Crystal~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:11:36 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Neil (was Re: Dave Matheson (was Jian Ghomeshi)) "A.J. LoCicero" wrote: > > Dave Matheson is a 160-year-old human alien half-breed who's father was Richard > Wagner. This fact horrifies me. I hope his music doesn't follow the path of his > father's (ugh!) Neil is an alien from somewhere in outer space. He was born on stardate 31964. Along with his friend Bob, he hangs out with Satanic Chickens and over-sexed Goats. He had some risque encounters with famed composer Richard Wagner (usually while listening to Tannhauser) which resulted in the birth of 622 offspring (including such famous denizens as Pauly Shore, Paul Shaeffer, John Paul Jones, Thad Jones, Jenny Jones, Davy Jones, Davey Johnson, Moose Johnson, that bitch Beth from the Real World, and that guy who gets shot in the gut by the cannon on all those TV commercials). This fact horrifies me terribly. The pregnancy was really hard on Neil (mostly because of the teasing from Bob about sleeping with Wagner). I hope he doesn't start loving karaoke and shooting up McDonalds because he's hooked on the orange drink. http://www.goats.com. Oh, damn. Too late. - Chad ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:03:36 -0400 From: "dan" Subject: CD from Falcon Ridge Hi my name is Maryanne and I am a long time Fruvous Fanatic. I went to Falcon Ridge and saw some fellow fans taping the show if at all possible I would love to have a copy especially loved the Killer Tent song thanks for the help and hope I get to meet some people at the SONO show ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:59:45 -0400 From: Paul Mischler Subject: Re: Hi! I'm new also. Record Theatre Locations (Buffalo Area): 1800 Main St. Bflo. 881-0654 3500 University Plaza (Main at Kenmore), Amherst. 837-2090 5221 Main St. (Btwn. N. Forest & Union), Williamsville. 634-3540 4703 Transit Road (Btwn. Clinton & French), Lancaster. 656-9596 6000 South Park Ave. (Town Hall Plaza), Hamburg. 649-6763 There are also locations in Rochester, Syracuse, Cincinnati, Baltimore, and Cleveland. But, since it's Buffalo based, I consider it "local", and "independent." - -Paul Mischler AngelCL7@aol.com wrote: > > Where in Amherst is "Record Theatre"? I never heard of that place. Thanx for > your help! > > ~~Crystal~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:14:37 -0600 From: katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin) Subject: Re: Pictures being edited? In article <7nnbtj$sv7$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>, Guybrush@erols.com says... > Hey guys..was idly surfing the net and discovered something strange. I was > looking at the band's promo pic off of FDC and discovered something strange. > It seems that the picture has been edited. Yeah, big deal. But if ya look at > Jian's hand it just doesn't look right. I looks like someone moved it. Whats > up with that??? It looks okay to me...doesn't seem to be altered. Should I admit that all I had to do was minimize this window to look at the picture, since I now have it set as my wallpaper? Heck, why not? Someone *else* obviously went to the trouble to put the original picture up on FDC in the exact aspect ratio to fit as wallpaper without distortion, not to mention at a larger size so when it's shrunk to fit you still get a nice high-res picture. k@ can't be the only one who notices these things ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:27:09 -0600 From: katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin) Subject: Re: Myers-Briggs Count Update In article <6dbd84b1.24d0a2ec@aol.com>, AngelCL7@aol.com says... > >I do think that this group (the online Frü-community and the larger fan > >base in general) attracts a disproportionate number of misfits, oddballs, > >people who'd consider themselves losers, etc. And I think those labels > >have a lot (everything?) to do with simply being what I like to call a > >"personality minority." Among our numbers, unlike the world at large, > >geekiness is pretty much the norm. > > What do u mean by that statement? I'm wondering. Well, I definitely meant it as a *good* thing, considering I count myself as one of these people...I just meant that many (not all!) of us seem to think of ourselves as some sort of misfit, as opposed to being part of the mainstream popular crowd in our "real-life" surroundings. A lot of us have expressed a feeling of not fitting in elsewhere. I *don't* mean to say that it's bad to be popular, or that everyone in this group is a social reject, or anything like that. I'm not trying to generalize or pigeonhole anybody. What I'm saying is that it's a great feeling when you finally find a place where, well, it's not forbidden to be what you are. k@ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:12:33 -0400 From: "Erring" Subject: Re: Jian Ghomeshi Mark Berry wrote in message <19990728182049.28505.qmail@hotmail.com>... >Jian Ghomeshi is going through an early mid - life crisis. It is a fact that >he is 31 yrs old. It is also a fact that he is dating a girl who is 18 >years old or younger. I am repulsed. Hopefully the music doesn't go the same >path as Jian - askew. > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com Well, let see, Jerry Lee Lewis married his thirteen year old cousin...I still like his music. My father was 11 years older than my mother...he never sang professionally (thank god). I guess one's taste in women has little to do with one's ability to make great music. I'd be much more concerned (and interested) if Jian (or anyone else for that matter) was 1) having a sexual relationship with someone who was a minor 2) having a sexual relationship with someone against their will or 3) having a sexual relationship with someone I know (better chance of getting into an after show party or something like that). Otherwise all I care about is that I enjoy the show. I am sure that Mark has some qualities that others would not approve of. Beware of making judgments less you be judged. Just my $.02 Erring ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:07:35 -0600 From: katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin) Subject: Re: OC Beach Idea... In article <379f2970.3218617@news.p3.net>, trace@frumail.org says... > "Leah Bender" wrote: > >I've been talking to a couple of people who are also going to the OC concert, > >and we have thrown around the idea of meeting on the 8th ave. beach and setting > >something up there. Whaddaya think? > This idea has been kicked around, and I know that some area Fruheads > have fague plans to spend the day at the beach. I think it is a good > idea, and would like to hang out, but I thought it would be a good > time to warn those who aren't aware that the OC beach isn't free, and > we'll likely have to pay a few bucks each to get a day-tag for the > beach. > > I still want to go :-) Count me in, as I think I was one of the original people to suggest this idea. I don't mind paying a few bucks for the beach, and I'd really, really like to get a whole bunch of people together to hang out there. It'll be the day after my birthday, and I wanna have a nice big Frühead shindig before the show to celebrate. My glitch is that I don't yet know when or how I'll be getting from Boston to Ocean City. I absolutely want to stay in Boston over Sunday night (for those of you unaware, my husband's working there and can't make it to the OC show, and after OC I'm headed back to Denver). Is there anyone driving from Boston to OC on Monday who can give me a lift? k@ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:15:38 GMT From: jkpolk@ntplx.net (Andrea Krause) Subject: Re: Myers-Briggs On Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:45:25 GMT, CheesemonkeyGem wrote: > >welp, mark me down for a ISTJ, i guess. altho the >questionnaire must be rigged, im NOTHING like the >description... serious? quiet?? PATIENT?? HA!! ya >right... > >-jen the cheesemonkey >=== >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >The trouble with the world today is that there is >no music to give you a preview of what's to come >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >_____________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com hey I just took it and you're the first one I've seen that had the same as me! (ISTJ), though chad is close... Scary thing is the explanation I read DOES relate to me fairly well. :) ('cept the part about being organized, but I spose within my MIND I am, just not in my ROOM. :) ) Andrea - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Moxy Früvous is a trust exercise." - Mike Ford 1/1/99 Pumpkins, Cookies, Tapes, and The Früvous Dance: http://users.ntplx.net/~jkpolk - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:43:52 GMT From: Jihead1@aol.com Subject: Re: ol' fogie-dom! (was Re: Myers-Briggs) In a message dated 7/28/99 5:36:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vcicilli@ONLINE.EMICH.EDU writes: << if you were born before dave, then congratulations! 8-) ciao--vc >> I was born July 4, 1966. Oh well, I guess I didn't make it! HAHAHA Lisa Bills ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:31:24 -0400 From: "Tim Deegan" Subject: probly probly is better. it _is_ a rochester thing! :) Maggie "Befriend the puffins... before the puffins attack!" -- Jian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:34:25 -0400 From: "Tim Deegan" Subject: Mark's comments on Jian first off... it's his personal life, back off. secondly, do you work for a canadian tabloid? anybody else have anthing else to say? thanks. byebye! Maggie "Befriend the puffins... before the puffins attack!" -- Jian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:30:33 -0400 From: "Tim Deegan" Subject: myers-briggs i remember that i took this test a long time ago, and i'm sure that i've changed a little bit. is there a way that i could take this test? i'm not sure where i can go...help? thanks! Maggie "Befriend the puffins... before the puffins attack!" -- Jian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:34:39 -0800 From: timiny Subject: Re: Myers-Briggs Count Tangent I'm a bit confused. I always thought the general population breakup was about 75% introverted and 25% extroverted. Possibly even more introverted than that. I know when I was in college and we did Meyers-Briggs there were many more I's than E's. It seems like a lot of people are less sociable to strangers in this world and so that's why it seems like there are more introverts. It's usually not until people really get to know people and make friends that they are more open and sociable, and it's more rare of people to talk to anyone and socialize with just anyone at any given moment, if you see what I mean. - -Matt * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 1999 23:24:22 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.composter (Lori Martin) Subject: Re: Neil (was Re: Dave Matheson (was Jian Ghomeshi)) Ignore that. I didn't post on the Dave thread. nope. it was some demon killer tent took over my keyboard for a moment. if you're confused by this, good. if you're not, then you know what i mean. :) - -- lori, wresting back control of her keyboard. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 1999 23:11:47 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.composter (Lori Martin) Subject: Re: Dave Matheson (was Jian Ghomeshi) AJ, I'm in love with you! God, I laughed *so* hard! But I *refuse* to post on this thread! Cheers! - -- Lori ************ >Dave Matheson is a 160-year-old human alien half-breed who's father was >Richard >Wagner. This fact horrifies me. I hope his music doesn't follow the path of >his >father's (ugh!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 23:23:46 GMT From: "Adam Hartfield" Subject: Re: Dave Matheson (was Jian Ghomeshi) > I hope his music doesn't follow the path of his > father's (ugh!) > > A.J. HEY! I *heart* Wagnerian opera! Listening to Hildegard Behrens sing her soul out as Brunnhilde in the NY Met's 1988 Ring cycle kept me awake and alert during many a late-night college studying session. Who knows, if Fruvous had been around then, maybe it would have been "Horseshoes" that I pictured the Niebelungen making when Wotan and Mime visited them. In fact just today I was listening to Ring excerpts. And I have the complete cycle on my cdnow wish list! It's only $174 or some such. :) - --Adam adamh@javanet.com once again proving his anti-ness ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:19:58 -0400 From: Fran Egan Subject: Re: PhillyFolkFest SHWeiss17 wrote: > Fruvous is scheduled to play on Saturday night, just before Loudon Wainwright > III, who closes the show on Saturday. (Flashback to The Bottom Line, NYC, June > '96). The PFF people couldn't tell you what time exactly they are playing > because there really isn't much of a formal time schedule for the evening > concerts at the PFF. The first performer starts at 7:30, and they just go from > there. > > Check out the PFF website for more info: http://www.folkfest.org > > Hoping that Philly will be as great as Falcon Ridge was, without the heat.... > > - Sue > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > "Wouldn't it be great, if the band just never ended > We could stay out late and we would never hear last call...." > ~Great Big Sea Aw Sue, you were at FRFF? I wish I had known, I was there too! Anyways, don't forget about that *other* Canadian band who'll be closing the PFF Sunday night show... you know, the one in your sig file with the initials "GBS"? ;) Plus Great Big Sea is playing a showcase on one of the workshop stages on Saturday at 1 p.m. I'll be there for sure! Cheers, Fran ;) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 1999 23:52:00 GMT From: skystar117@aol.comPHAEDRUS (Deb) Subject: LUELLA~*~LUELLA~*~LUELLA~*~LUELLA~*~LUELLA~*~LUELLA. *yes*, I'm talking to YOU. GET YER SCRAWNY ASS OUT HERE NOW! I've got picutres....*delurk or else.* Consider this a threat:) Have a lovely day dear, miss you terribly:) tons of hugs and kisses and pimpy bums - -love debs/tapping her fingers together and plotting to block the sun so that she controls all the energy and....oh, wait. That's next weeks evil plan. exxxxxcellent. "All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing a song." -Louis Armstrong "For hope and inspiration, live a life Fruvous." -Rosemary @}--}--}---- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 23:47:53 GMT From: AngelCL7@aol.com Subject: Re: Myers-Briggs Count Update In a message dated 7/28/99 7:08:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, katrin@dimensional.com writes: << Well, I definitely meant it as a *good* thing, considering I count myself as one of these people...I just meant that many (not all!) of us seem to think of ourselves as some sort of misfit, as opposed to being part of the mainstream popular crowd in our "real-life" surroundings. A lot of us have expressed a feeling of not fitting in elsewhere. I *don't* mean to say that it's bad to be popular, or that everyone in this group is a social reject, or anything like that. I'm not trying to generalize or pigeonhole anybody. What I'm saying is that it's a great feeling when you finally find a place where, well, it's not forbidden to be what you are. k@ >> Oh I see! I thought u meant it in a bad way! Yeah in my "real-life surroundings I'm not in any certain group, I have friends from each group. I consider myself geeky at times too! And it is "a great feeling when you finally find a place where, well, it's not forbidden to be what you are." Thanks for clearing that up for me. ~~Crystal~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 23:54:19 GMT From: Angie Subject: re: Dave Matheson (was Jian Ghomeshi) ya know, Lori and I talked about it today and we really hoped this wouldn't perpetuate the troll's obvious desire to throw some type of non-fact based (or fact based, who's to say, that's not why we're here) temper tantrum. However... I must say that I truly appreciate the responses I have seen...thank you for not sinking to his level Meghan, Vika, Josh, Bridget, Chad and AJ. And as for you, Mr. LoCicero... >Dave Matheson is a 160-year-old human alien half-breed who's father was >Richard > Wagner. This fact horrifies me. I hope his music doesn't follow the >path of > his > father's (ugh!) you sure you weren't eavesdropping on the inst. msg conversation Lori and I had earlier? Seriously, though... this was one of my biggest fears with the guys "making it big," the fact that their lives would become fodder for public slanderous bull$hit. I don't think I'd be prepared to deal with standing in line at Wegmans, glancing over and seeing a trash mag boldly displaying a picture of a bearded woman with a bat child superimposed between Murray and Dave all superimposed in front of Stonehenge with meteors flying out of the sky while I'm buying frozen pizza and Coca-Cola. All I can say is that I certainly don't depend on the guys for my moral guidance (*wink*), I depend on them to provide me with new, awesome, thought-provoking or side-splitting music... and they deliver. What have I got to complain about. :^) Ok, I'm done and need to get back to writing. It appears that my writer's block seems to have dissipated and my muse has returned... but sonnets??? sheesh! Nothing like a little challenge ;^} - --Angie, merely misdirected... i swear When I get back we'll dip our cup Into the fountain of youth We'll rest our heads and raise a toast To the sunset's beautiful truth --Moxy Fruvous ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 1999 00:05:02 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.composter (Lori Martin) Subject: Re: OT-Where are you Valerie? LOL! Mindy, I didn't realize Ben is *also* a BJ! >my bro's account... bjm2344@rit.edu is this an address you can be reached at regularly? - -- Lori ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #633 ********************************************