From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #495 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Tuesday, June 15 1999 Volume 03 : Number 495 Today's Subjects: ----------------- lets be happy that patrick came along ["lil' spence" ] Re: Calling down the Thunder (this is LONG) [chad schrock ] Re: Pisco Bandito [Paul Mischler ] Re: Laika [Mindy J Munson ] Re: Criticism: bad lyrics (long) [tmbgirl@juno.com] Re: the war [tmbgirl@juno.com] Re: Pisco Bandito (immigration)...off topic [shalini trivedi ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 02:26:19 GMT From: "lil' spence" Subject: lets be happy that patrick came along dont you think that this mightve been a learning experience for us at the ammf? i mean, sure, patrick may or may not be a fruhead, but he at least has the open-mindedness to think about the lyrics! maybe since we all (myself included) are held in such thrall by our four heroes, we feel insulted ourselves when theyre lyrics are insulted. without somebody critisising lyrics, there would only BE bad lyrics. they'd all degenerate. not in fruvous or other bands of today, but that in future generations the bar for good lyrics will get lower and lower. by telling us about the lyrics, fruvous will hear about it somehow, and then they will look at some of theyre own potential lyrics for future songs, look them over, and possibly make improvements that make the song better. you never know. just to be honest, i am a true blue fruhead trying to see this impartially. im having alot of trouble so im probably wrong on alot of points. just try and give patrick a bit o' credit, k? h! ! e probably knew he would get dumped on for this. - -chris "no, im not spencer - in fact, im chris!" "why spencer instead of chris?" "why not?" "okay, then..." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 02:24:37 GMT From: seqiro@mail2.nai.net (Paul D. Beasi) Subject: Re: the war on patrick On 14 Jun 1999 22:17:51 GMT, mocksie@aol.com (Mocksie) wrote: > >Once again, to defend myself, I do not believe that "pansy" is a homosexual >slur, and neither do the other 4 people in my house at this moment. It's not >MY fault that you have distorted definitions of a commonly used term. I'm sure I'm just feeding the fire here, but to quote the late great Noah Webster: pansy \pan-ze\ n. pl pansies [deleted word derivations] 1: a garden plant (Viola tricolor hortensis) derived chiefly from the wild pansy of Europe by hybridizing the latter with other wild violets; also : its flower. 2 a: an effeminate youth -- often used disparagingly b: a male homosexual -- often used disparagingly Even though 2a is probably a little lighter than 2b, I think the word "disparagingly" sums it all up. I guess the point is let's all try to be mature here. There's no need for namecalling here no matter what we think about the poster and no matter what the connotation of the name chosen. It just makes us fit his description better. Paul (testing his fire extinguisher) ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 1999 02:48:46 GMT From: limezinger@aol.commmmmmmm (i am the message centre) Subject: Re: Laika shouldaseenherface.... http://ham.spa.umn.edu/kris/laika.html awww... :} sarah http://members.aol.com/limezinger linnellgirl@tmbg.org * icq #26873712 * mstie #77216 "i'd love to stay here and be normal, but it's just so overrated" - blur ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:47:08 -0400 From: chad schrock Subject: The war on those cat freaks *WARNING*WARNING*WARNING*WARNING* Gross misrepresentation ahead! Proceeed at your own risk! (and nothing against Fruwench, she just helps to prove a point.) *WARNING*WARNING*WARNING*WARNING* FruWench wrote: > > Does this mean I cant be gay and happy anymore? Free speech, > folks. He did apologize as "no offense intended." All of you cat owners are freaks and are mentally unfit. Oh sorry, no offense intended, free speech you know. It sounds to me more like the empty, "oh, sorry" that people utter when they bump into each other or something. > Are any of you jumping on his case homosexuals who > were offended? Why should only homosexuals be offended? - -- chad at radix dot net cat person ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:32:52 -0400 From: chad schrock Subject: Re: Calling down the Thunder (this is LONG) Ross Hendry wrote: > Ellen wrote: > > >perhaps patrick's biggest problem was that he didn't first > >make himself known as a worthy contributor. ;) quick, > >someone send him one of those "netiquette" guides. > > *Not* directed at you Ellen, but I don't think it's Patrick > who needs the etiquette guide. egads, tell me about it. The newsgroup of late has been far worse than the "love" I saw in Toronto in February. Give it a rest already people; I feel like I'm watching a kindergarden class. > Ross, someone remind me of that first amendment thing you > US folks have? An illusion. Nothing more. > "Right here, right now. > Right here, right now. > Right here, right now. > Right here, right now." - Fatboy Slim Or Van halen. Well, almost. - -- chad at radix dot net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 02:55:47 GMT From: "A.T. Schrader" Subject: Re: Pisco Bandito Deep > down inside, I probably > think it shouldn't be on the new album because it'll > stick out like > a sore thumb (and possibly steal[1] a slot that > could have been taken > by a more inline with the album song). But I know > that's probably not > an opinion a lot of people share here. oh thank you Chad for posting this!! I thought i was the only one who was very some reservations about having Pisco on the new album. Although i love Pisco to no end it just does not seem to fit with any of the other new stuff...It's kinda a tough decision IMO...on onw hand i would LOVE to hear a studio recording of Pisco (if for nothing else, to see if they included the Studle/Noodle bridge) but unless they do another hiden Organ Grinder type thing, i just don't see making melding (i that a word?) with the other songs on the album (or what i think are on the album). Of course this is Fruvous we are talking about (duh!) and miracles can and do happen ^_^! well, those are just my thoughts anyway..... Amy === "The masses wanted to look non-conformist, so that meant the non-conformity had to be mass manufactured." ~Andy Warhol "Wouldn't it be great if the band just never ended" ~Great Big Sea _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:23:15 -0400 From: Paul Mischler Subject: Re: Pisco Bandito What about a single of it? Non-album, may not do too well, but could still be a great boost for fans?!?! - -Paul Mischler "A.T. Schrader" wrote: > on onw hand i would LOVE to hear a studio recording of > Pisco ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:17:47 GMT From: Mindy J Munson Subject: Re: Laika aww... i wish I hadn't done that. Now I feel even worse for the poor puppy fruchild, *canoodle!* >shouldaseenherface.... > >http://ham.spa.umn.edu/kris/laika.html > > >awww... :} > > >sarah ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:26:54 GMT From: tmbgirl@juno.com Subject: Re: Criticism: bad lyrics (long) >Calling someone a pansy is equivalent to calling them a fag or a >dyke, etc. hey i have an idea, let's call everyone homophobic. let's see how much they like that. heehee... ok... sorry about that one, i couldn't let the opportunity slip by. take it easy, JOrdaN http://www2.netcom.com/~arnot/joda/bootlegs.html 1month and 2days till TMBG 1 month and 3days till i move to NYC :) ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:36:03 GMT From: tmbgirl@juno.com Subject: Re: the war >When on child says another is >gay, >he/she may mean that the other person is stupid, but what does this >say to >the kid about gays? That they are stupid. You are such a hypocrite. You sit there and pick out all the possible definitions of "pansy" and then skip over the fact that "gay" has several meanings too. If i call a kid "gay" perhaps i just think they're jolly and happy. In your own post you've noted that "gay" has another connotation in society... some people may think that "gay" = "stupid." I'm noticing a very pessimistic outlook on life and people from your general direction. I think if you'd just relax a bit, take it easy, and just hope that people have the best intentions, the world won't be such a grim place. thank you, come again. (not a dis on anyone... i used to work at a convenience store, just assume i'm quoting myself or something). take it easy, JOrdaN http://www2.netcom.com/~arnot/joda/bootlegs.html ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:29:17 -0500 From: shalini trivedi Subject: Re: Pisco Bandito (immigration)...off topic okay okay....i read the discussion about off/on topic posts, but doesn't the band encourage political disucussion? or at the very least, awrareness? On Sun, 13 Jun 1999, Kevin Way wrote: > Actually, I always thought it was about illegal immigrants, who are forced to > do things they don't really want to do so they can 'send money every month or > so' and what not. illegal immigration...hmm...no comment. none of you want to see that storm. *innocent grin* but, legal immigrants, and even non-immigrants are forced to do things they don't like in order to get by as well. :) good day! ps....i know this post comes late, but i've been lazy....and busy! ************************************************ * "...not in the * Shalini Trivedi * * American sense; * Chemical Engineering * * that would be * College of LAS * * insane!" *University of Illinois* * - Jian Ghomeshi * Urbana-Champaign * ************************************************ > > am i the only one who doesn't think "pisco" is just a ha-ha song? sure, > > it's funny - but isn't it more about tourist exploitation and such things? > > or am i reading far too much into it? > > > Kevin Way > kevin@overtone.org > kevin@frumail.org (i think) > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:11:15 GMT From: vika@ibm.net (Vika Zafrin) Subject: Re: You've inspired a post from me, congratulations :) Kevin Way wrote: [snip] > Because Laika is a song about the dog, Laika, that the Russians sent up > into space and surprise, surprise, left her there. So the last point made > was that the band was playing hail to the chief, that the nation was so > happy about this, but really all they'd done was find a really expensive > and exotic way to starve a dog to death. Whoa. How's that for anti-Commie propaganda being burned into people's brains. No, Laika did not starve to death. Yes, she did burn up on re-entry. Yes, it is true that the shuttle was not equipped for landing. Yes, there was *much* controversy about this in the Soviet Union, and they made a conscious decision to send a *stray* dog into space, figuring that if they didn't, she would probably be one of, literally, thousands of strays who died on the streets of Russia. Many of the strays were cared for, but their lot wasn't much better than that of the dogs that end up in pounds in the States. It was interesting reading this post on a largely-US-and- Canada-based newsgroup, where much animal experimentation goes on For The Good Of Humanity. Double standard? Yes, but what scares me more is that it's probably *still*, years after the Cold War ended, largely subconscious, so ingrained is it in so many people's brains. - -v, /soapbox Vika Zafrin, vika at ibm dot net "White men CAN jump!!" - Robbie Knievel, after making it over Grand Canyon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:21:20 GMT From: SkyStar117@aol.com Subject: WHAT MAKES A PERSON SO FRIGGIN POISONOUS RIGHTOUS? Please read-it OK? STOP! ALL OF YOU! UGH! SO HE DOES NOT LIKE *SOME* OF US, AND *SOME* OF WHAT THEY SING....I DONT GIVE A FLYING DAMN WHY HE JOINED THE NG, AND I DONT WANT TO KNOW! WE ARE ALL GETTING OUT OF HAND.... Patrick: In the begining I wanted to offer you a nice warm glass of shut the hell up. but I've sat on my frustration over your sometimes rude, often condescending and always *very* opinionated remarks.... and now im not pissed anymore. So you dont like my favorite band?..............SFW?............95% of the people in my life dont even know what they sound like and you have heard them and seen them live and formed your own, albeit unfavorable, opinion of them. mad props to you for trying. so, you can dislike, or disrespect, or adore, or question the validity of moxy fruvous (and their lyrics and their music and their harmonies and their fans) till the cows come home for all i care. i tolerate your views and i accept your opinions...but i dont care about them. I mean, they don't affect me one way or the other. IN FACT, I'M GLAD THAT YOU DECIDED, FOR WHATEVER REASON THAT YOU DID, TO COME IN HERE AND START IN ON JUST WHY YOU *DONT* LIKE MOXY FRUVOUS. B/C IT MADE ME REALIZE JUST WHY I LOVE THEM SO MUCH. thanks, Partick. I now choose to ignore most of the crap that's going on in here b/c I'm tired of the bickering and hurt feelings that stemed from your displeasure with the Boulder show. I'm sorry you didn't have fun. I'm sorry you don't understand why we love them so much. But I do: I have never in my life felt music like I feel Fruvous. That's the best I can explain it. It's more than amazing, fantastic, brilliant music. It's more than four attractive, charismatic Canadians with a lovely, endlessly patient secretary (hey jude;)... It's a family. The whole IRC/AMMF thing too. I love it b/c it gives me a forum to share my love of this basically obscure band with other people who feel the same way I do. It's amazing the people in here that have come into my life since I began to listen to this band. I love the whole MF culture; there's nothing else like it in the world. And if you're on the outside of it looking in, you won't understand just how it makes the people inside feel. I know not all of you will agree with me, but that's at least why *I* love them. ANd that's probably why some other people, ahem Patrick, just don't. The don't FEEL the music like I do. And not in some newagey, trippy way. The most important thing is to feel your music, really feel it and belive it. Muddy Waters said: "...the blues is for me. It's like a shoe. You take a #7 shoe, you sure can't wear a size 4. You wear the one that fits. The blues fit me." ....Moxy Fruvous is my blues, but it just isn't Patricks. It's that simple. OK, I'm done now. Thanks for reading this - -debs "All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing a song." -Louis Armstrong ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:23:28 GMT From: vika@ibm.net (Vika Zafrin) Subject: Re: criticism in general (attn: patrick) Argh. Stoppitstoppitstoppit. I really wasn't going to post, I swear. But let's ALL (Patrick and almost everyone who responded to him) get off our high horses, huh?? There is a LOT of stuff I don't agree with Patrick on. Others have nitpicked enough for me. But - see below: firedancer delighted us with: >why the sam hell do you even waste your time wading through 100 >emails per day about a band that you don't even *like*?! Have you been reading his posts? He said REPEATEDLY he LIKED the band. Whether or not he has been civil, and whether or not his arguments have been substantiated enough, are different matters entirely. But Patrick has made an effort, from what I've read (which is almost everything), to emphasize that he likes the band, though he doesn't like certain aspects of it. He's taken cheap shots, but others have taken cheap shots against him. Killfile? Killfile all you want, but repeatedly posting the fact that you killfiled someone on the ng, to the point of redundancy, is rude. Telling him to get a life is no better than him telling you to get a life. [criticizing the band] > but if you're gonna do it, >please be considerate of other people's feelings. many of us *do* take >it personally when you insult us with your little elusive comments. Agreed. But there's been insulting on both sides here. You think he's a troll? Ignore him. Those who don't think he's a troll (personally, I'd rather read his posts than Jian scent- and breast size-related ones) will respond to his arguments. Twenty thousand people all telling Patrick (who, again, I feel has made an effort to make himself clear and understood, albeit not enough of one) to sod off certainly aren't going to make it any better. Ugh. >my suggestion to you? rather than posting seventy-eleven different >criticisms about a band that so many of us just absolutely adore, and >in turn disparaging many of us; *unsubscribe* from the damn newsgroup! There are few people more devoted to the band than I am, and I definitely have my own criticisms toward it. Whether or not I post them to the newsgroup, and the manner I phrase them if I do, is another story; but kristen, if you can't take criticism of Fruvous, you should re-evaluate subscribing to an open forum for discussion of the band, good sides and bad. - -v, who really would have taken your post more seriously if you hadn't quoted Patrick's WHOLE post at the end of yours, thereby making your own post over 300 lines long Vika Zafrin, vika at ibm dot net "White men CAN jump!!" - Robbie Knievel, after making it over Grand Canyon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:27:01 GMT From: tmbgirl@juno.com Subject: Re: the war on gayness :::warning there are "bad words" in this post... read at your own discretion::: i don't want to sound like a hoochie. oh wait, i prolly shouldn't use that term, someone might think it's a "gay slur." but oh my god. I've seen the same people take others comments so incredibly out of line that i'm beginning to be angered. Let me just point out that there are so many terms out there that lose their original connotation and take on new ones that for you to be at all offended by this comment, and to keep bugging about it long after the person has stated that that was by no means what they intended, is ridiculous. Let's take a term that our frulads tend to use often. "fuck." I believe, and someone can correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe that "fuck" referred to sexual intercourse originally. "fucking" would be individuals taking part in the actual activity. "fucker" would be one of the individuals, etc. So in the lowest highest point, they say "new york, it's got fucking mountains" So unless this comment refers to certain mountains (like "lookout mountain" here in colorado, where people really do tend to go there merely to have sex). i think you can agree with me that that's not what was intended with that comment. "not a fucking state with mountains" same thing. of course in all senses of the word states are used for fucking but uh... "a state without fucking skiing" wooey, sasparilluh. i don't even want to go there. Not to mention Oscar the grouch coming out and saying "motha fuckah." i'm not quite sure that they really mean that. it's just a saying now-a-days. Have you ever blurted out "shit" or "sheeeeit" when ya stubbed your toe? unless you were greatly confused and happened to bump your head at the same time, i'll bet that ya didn't think that your toe was honestly shit, crap, or anything else. So when my boyfriend calls me a pansy, i'm not jumping down his back getting all mad at him because i'm sure he's implying that i'm gay. i'm positive that that's the last thing he intended. Just like if i called him a mofo or something, i'm not implying that he's sleeping with his or anyone else's mother. so if you just don't happen to get outside and see that these terms have already lost the meanings you claim they continue to imply, wake up. The past two months my boyfriend has called me and his best friends "pansies" it's an everyday term to us now. I never even had a clue that it was originally a gay slur. so perhaps i'm the one that needs to get outside and see what's up. don't you think it's time to get a clue and lay off when you've almost scared at least two people off the list in under two months? i would have been fine with my situation but you wouldn't give up even after i explained that you had totally misunderstood and distorted anything i ever said. an explanation wasn't good enough for you because you're convinced that, and i wish i saved the e-mail so it wouldn't be a misquote, but that all people are somewhat homophobic and prejudiced towards everyone that isn't like themselves. i said it once and i'll say it again, i think you're generalizing from your own POV and position where perhaps you feel that way, but honestly some of us don't harbor any malevolent feelings towards others. give it up. you can't save the world by changing people's thoughts from what they never were. MOCKSIE, don't be intimidated by others. you know exactly what was up in your head, and so do the rest of us that have any sympathy and can realize that there was no harm intended. stay on the NG and just pull a chad and ignore the posts from people you don't want to read what they have to say, especially if all it ever is is ridiculous and harmful. ok, i'm stepping down. i do apologize because i'm sure this is prolly gonna appear to be another one of my "flames like a bitch" posts. and no, i don't think i'm flaming like a female dog. Jordan's final thoughts: perhaps mocksie is closer to my age or something. perhaps we just know what's up with our generation, maybe not. maybe it's like the older generations just aren't as accepting of new ideas and stuff, sound familiar? Ok, at least with my thread the parties involved got a good laugh about it... and again, kat, thanks for the gift... i've been sporting it on my bag since the show everywhere i go :D take it easy, JOrdaN http://www2.netcom.com/~arnot/joda/bootlegs.html ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:31:31 GMT From: vika@ibm.net (Vika Zafrin) Subject: Re: Criticism: bad lyrics (long) Gruneberg Veronica J <6vjg@qlink.queensu.ca> delighted us with: >Please, please, please, don't consider this a flame or a nasty response or >anything... just genuine puzzlement... but, >Who cares?? Who is Enid? Who is Jane St. Clair (and why is there an >intersection with the same name in Toronto ;)? Who is Allison, or >Veronica, Anna, Eleanor Rigby, or Cheryl, or "that guy"? More importantly, >who is "the taxman", and why does he keep getting all my money? It often helps me to know if there's a real-life person that a song is based on or dedicated to, or what-not. Helps my understanding of the song. With Fruvous, anyway. And I always *have* wondered who the hell Eleanor Rigby was. - -v Vika Zafrin, vika at ibm dot net "White men CAN jump!!" - Robbie Knievel, after making it over Grand Canyon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:43:58 GMT From: vika@ibm.net (Vika Zafrin) Subject: Re: Criticism: bad lyrics (long) seqiro@ct2.nai.net (Paul D. Beasi) delighted us with: >Besides, if I wanted TOTAL perfection I'd be listening to "Livin' La >Vida Loca" by Ricky Martin and "Believe" by Cher. :) I mean, the big >studio execs and millions of people can't all be wrong, can they? Have you listened to Ricky Martin's other stuff and/or seen interviews with him? He actually reminds me of Jian a lot, in his friendliness to all kinds of media attention *and* in his emphasis on music being the most important part. The other songs of his that I've heard (what I've understood of "Maria", and "Cup of Life" too) celebrate music, and living and happiness, and he's got an amaaaazing voice. And, if you ignore all the twelve-year-olds screaming in the background in every interview, he is an intelligent and charming person, who happens to also sing multi-lingually (Spanish, Italian and English, maybe more) from what I've heard. - -v Vika Zafrin, vika at ibm dot net "White men CAN jump!!" - Robbie Knievel, after making it over Grand Canyon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:49:51 GMT From: Angie Armstrong Subject: oh you evil, evil chad! our beloved chad traumatized me with: >> -Angie, wondering what the hell is in the water these days > > Angie? Are you telling us something? Is that the pittper-patter > of litte feet that we hear? > > Congrats!!!!! ACK!!! Bite your tongue! I'm gonna have nightmares for a week now! The only pitter patter around this apt is my psychotic cat, and that's _more_ than enough for me! ;^D Besides, I'd hardly qualify for immaculate conception *smirk* Wasn't what I was thinking when I posted that, I'll have to edit a little more closely next time! Am I being insensitive in not being overly offended by various comments being tossed around? Yeah, some were uncalled for (not just from Patrick, btw), some where malicious and hurtful, but some had a shade of validity and genuine effort. It's sad to think people are leaving and unsubscribing and such... while I wouldn't belittle the events by saying it's "no big deal," I would say that its an uncomfortable string of incidents that will blow over... people will mature or become acclimated and we will move on... evolution, maturity, whatever you want to call it. Perhaps I am insensitive, because my parade gets rained on all the time, I get slammed and insulted and offended... but I grew up knowing that if I couldn't win a fight, I'd just better shut up or find an eloquent way out of the situation... so I'm a lot more tolerant than some. Does that make me any less loyal a fan? - --Angie "Grown-ups never understand anything for themselves, and it is tiresome for children to be always and forever explaining things to them." - -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery, _The Little Prince_ ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #495 ********************************************