From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #400 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Tuesday, May 11 1999 Volume 03 : Number 400 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: clifton park show [lasher103@aol.com (Lasher103)] Re: Personal Favs (was TCAT) [Cheesemaker Gem ] connotations (was: SAY WHAT!?) [Alexander Prestin ] Re: Moxy Fruvous Newbie ;) [Larry Dietrich ] Re: gay? SAY WHAT!? [katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin)] Re: Old crones unite! (was Re: T-shirts) [cookie ] This sweet lair... ["Aye, who's asking whom?" ] Re: Maxwell's 5/8/99 Set List [cookie ] Re: Maxwell's 5/8/99 Set List [katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin)] Re: OT: homophobia?? (was: gay? which was: tshirts) [Leah ] Re: Please cut it out? :) - a suggestion [Ellen ] Re: speaking of looking straight..ot [Larry Dietrich
Your Humble Narrator,
Jonathan
www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Balcony/3107 >Hey, I'm wondering if anyone happened to tape the clifton park show? It
>was my girlfriends first show and she is now eagerly awaiting the next >one.
>I figured since she loved that show so much that a cd or tape of it would >be
>a good present for her...if you can help me out please do..thanks so much
>
>-Eric
> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 04:25:17 GMT From: Cheesemaker Gem Subject: Re: Personal Favs (was TCAT) - --- Aryn - Marietta Eaton wrote: > > > --- Bridget wrote: > > Cheesemaker Gem wrote in message > > > <19990509021600.10929.rocketmail@web119.yahoomail.com>... > > : > > :Speaking of yum, allow me to share my personal > > favs... > > :i agree aboot john cusack, hes the man :) i also > > like > > :ryan phillippe (kindofa pretty boy, but gorgeous > > :nonetheless), Andy Garcia, Tim Robbins, Tim Roth > > :Brendan Fraser, Micheal Keaton, Ralph Finnes, > Ethan > > :Hawke, Michael Madson, Vince Vaughn, Jonny Lee > > Miller, > > :Nicolas Cage, Al Pacino, Matt Dillon, and the two > > :younger cuties Brad Renfro and Elijah Wood :) > > How about some of the "older cuties" Harrison Ford, > Sean Connery? And the not as old, Kenneth Branagh, > Liam Nieson, oh, and all of U2 ya, harrison is sexy. i like liam too. my aunt has a friend who's friend used to live with and date the drummer of U2!! hes so good looking. :) :) - -jen, playing 6 degrees of U2 === The World's Shortest Pessimistic Poem: Hope? Nope. - -Robert Zeal _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1999 04:20:06 GMT From: Alexander Prestin Subject: connotations (was: SAY WHAT!?) tmbgirl@juno.com wrote: : what the hell is your problem with me and to a greater extent with the : world? :>We are all homophobic, and racist and classist :>Minimizing it is the next. I meant only to point out that you need to :>consider what you are saying. : if you're trying to say that no matter what, i've got unconscious motives : (cuz they're definitely not conscious) against everyone that isn't : exactly like me i fail to see your "logical" reasoning there. I think that's what was implied, but, see below... : Ok, so just because i can't understand certain situations (being gay, : being a different race) to the greatest extent could imply that i'm not : fully aware of everything that they're going through but i don't see how : that means that i'm automatically against these people and their actions : and thus prejudiced. I'm almost certain that the previous poster didn't mean it as a personal affront to you or to any other members of this newsgroup. I do agree with them that everyone is prejudiced to some extent. However, and I think that person (sorry! I can't remember the original email addy) will agree with me on this: I don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing. Being prejudiced towards people isn't necessarily evil. I could think that people with blond hair are extremely cool, for example, based on my prior, limited experience with blond people. I don't think it's unfair to say that everyone formulates their opinions on people as groups of people rather than as individuals, at least to some extent, which is really what prejudice is. Society conditions us to think of people as belonging to certain races, or sexes -- "groups". If that weren't the case, we wouldn't refer to people as "black people" or "lesbians" or "white people", etc. It's my opinion that, as soon as you start thinking of people in terms of their differences, you've gained at least a little prejudice towards that "group". As to whether or not that prejudice is good or bad: that's up to the individual. Some people are much more close-minded about it than others, have their own opinions on other "types" of people, and will not be influenced in any way. (I recall a powerful commercial from a few years back that dealt with racism by introducing the scenario, "What if the only person who could save your life happened to be black?" I wonder if it changed anyone's mind. I hope it did.) I think, with this definition of prejudice in mind, which I believe is what the original poster intended, the concept of everyone being prejudiced to some extent is easier to accept. - - A.P. (remove the refuse to reply) - -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 04:32:00 GMT From: Fiona Subject: Re: Please cut it out? :) - a suggestion Lori wrote: >2) reinvigorating the FAQ and posting it on a regular basis so that newcomers know >the deal here. I'd be willing to oversee this project, based on the work CeeCee's >done, and make sure it gets posted at least once a month. This is a really good idea I think, along with Jen's reiteration of the usual netiquette about OT: in a post header. It seems that a.m.m-f is the first newsgroup a lot of people who presently post here have ever used, perhaps the FAQ could contain a short section about newsgroup etiquette, including putting OT: in a header, not quoting irrelevant parts of another person's post, taking conversations that only include 2 or 3 people to email etc. They all save us a little time when we're reading, make our own posts easier to understand, and a monthly posting of them would keep people who would like to post gentle reminders from looking like ogres. >Another idea, which I picked up from alt.tv.homicide, is to have a rotating >assigned role of who deals with newcomer welcomes and questions -- especially >now that Chad's not here. Each regular could take the job for the week Also a great idea - how would we choose each week though? "I'm thinking of a Frusong. Whoever guesses what song it is gets to welcome newbies for the week."? *g* I've got to say, I know I often go away off-topic myself (*cough*Robbie*cough*) but the further away from my last show I get the more irritated I get with stuff that is *really* hard to relate to Fruvous. I'd hate to come to the point where I felt that reading every single post to dig out quotes was more of a chore than anything else. Fiona - I know, my .sig's off-topic. Wait till Fort Erie. "There's even a taste of Rick Astley in his low register, and while no sane person would ever admit to being influenced by Rick Astley, one of the most appealing things about The Ego Has Landed is that Robbie and sanity are barely on speaking terms." - review from Rolling Stone ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1999 04:59:03 GMT From: Larry Dietrich Subject: Re: Moxy Fruvous Newbie ;) Jacey7@aol.com wrote in : >I'm just curious how people in general stumble upon this band, especially >people on the flip side of the planet, where I'm guessing "word of mouth" >tends to be considerably less. I first happened upon them doing an interview on the NPR show "All Things Considered." For Canadians unfamiliar with it, it's similar to CBC's "As It Happens." Anyway, I loved the wit and the harmonies. And I remembered enough of the odd name that I was able do find the band doing a simple Web search. This is last summer. "Live Noise" was the second Frudisk I heard, and I was hooked. But my wife, who hadn't heard it, kept looking at me like I was crazy. Finally, on a five-hour drive, I played "Live Noise" for her. She isn't nearly as avid as I am, but she joined me at our first Fruconcert last week. Now, here's an odd story. So, I'm the only soul in my circle of friends who has a Fruclue. Let's face it, passion expressed in this newsgroup aside, the band is relatively unknown. So, I had just bought a "B" CD (eeeee, f'ing gh-oke) and told my wife she had to listen to "Big Fish," which I found delightfully cutting. Wish some American bands could do that to the likes of Henry Hyde, et. al. Anyway, so we get where we're going, to visit an old friend of mine and his family, and we go up to the third-floor guest room, which is also where their computer is. And what's sitting on the table next to the computer. A cassette of the "B." album. I grew up near Buffalo, and that's where my friend lives. Buffalo is Frufriendly. My friend and his family knew all about the band. Their teen- age son had gone to a concert at the Tralf (ah, I used to love that place when I lived there). And here's odd story two. So, there my wife and I are at our first live concert at the end of April in Syracuse. Someone in the crowd turns around and says to us, "Are you Mari and Rachel's parents?" Turns out it was a worker at the day care center our girls attend. From this, we learn that there are Frufans all around us, whether we know it or not. Cheers. Dietrich ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:24:45 -0600 From: katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin) Subject: Re: gay? SAY WHAT!? In article <19990511033753.13040.rocketmail@web305.yahoomail.com>, alaynamac@yahoo.com says... > I want to love all people > equally, but when someone jumps in my face and tells > me that I can't possibly understand them it really > annoys me. Well said, Aryn. I know it's something most of us need to work on remembering - we've all got our little knee-jerk whatevers. I suppose the easiest way of putting it is whenever we see/hear/read something that makes us automatically think, "They must be picking on me because I'm a..." - we should take a step back and realize that no, they're probably not. k@ reminding myself every day that the way to prevent people from seeing you as a token is not to act like one ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:11:07 -0700 From: cookie Subject: Re: Old crones unite! (was Re: T-shirts) Katrin wrote: > > In article <37367AAE.1FA9@2cowherder.com>, cookie@2cowherder.com says... > > > Hey! There's only 15 more shopping days until my birthday! I decided to > > announce my candidacy for President of the United States on my birthday > > this year since I'll finally be old enough. Please send all contribution > > pledges to: cookie@2cowherd.net. ;-) > > Whoohoo! Cookie for president! Who's gonna be your running mate? I don't > have any money to contribute, but maybe I can make t-shirts or something > (look, I brought it back to the original thread!). > > k@ OK! You're officially my Promotions Director! As far as a running mate, I'm stuck. Frank Zappa's dead, and Monica Lewinski's kinda busy right now... any suggestions? (I was kind of hoping whoever takes the job would pretty much run things. I just want to travel a lot in my own private plane, hang out with all those Secret Service guys, and get a bunch of free stuff from really wealthy people.) Just to keep this somewhat on topic: I'd love it if Fruvous would play at the inauguration--provided they can squeeze me in between their Harley road trips to Tiajuana with Slash, their Malibu beachhouse parties with Madonna, and their poker nights with Hugh at the Playboy mansion. I also require that they only have 6 shots of Jaegermeister (each) out of their Grammys prior to the performance. (After all, I have an image to protect.) Cookie for Prez ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 01:42:37 -0400 From: "Aye, who's asking whom?" Subject: This sweet lair... >[1] Okay, so is Morphee. The second verse is essentially nonsense, >but inasmuch as it's about dreams, I suspect that was kinda the point. Stop, hammer time. As I have spent some time studying the subtleties of that song and the whole thing about Fruvous's amazing live version of an old Beau Dommage tune (more in a moment), I can't let that go. Morphee is about being caught in one's own fantasies and letting that world win out over the real one; the second verse is what brings the listener out of the real-world mindset and closer to an acceptance of the speaker's world. After all, once the third verse begins and "they sell the old lands in the gorilla markets" stuff starts, you have to be able to feel for the world where day and dream unite... oh wait, wrong Canadian band. About the cover: four times I've heard the Lads cover "The Seal's Complaint" (La Complainte du phoque en Alaska), song Beau Dommage originally performed in 1974, when nationalist sentiment in Quebec was beginning to build. It's a beautiful tune about a seal pining for his girlfriend (you can read the lyrics at fdc), but the Lads take it one step further with their heart-rending four-part dissection of the song and angelic chorus. You don't have to understand the words to be moved (I didn't undersand them the first two times), but I think it's the finest song they do live. So Fruvous has three known French songs. If we beg, maybe they could add a Jacques Brel tune. "I used to know a little square, so long ago when I was small." - -I don't know where it ends, Dante ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:29:53 -0700 From: cookie Subject: Re: Maxwell's 5/8/99 Set List Katrin wrote: > > In article <37379AED.6AF1@2cowherder.com>, cookie@2cowherder.com says... > > > WOW! How do you remember something like THAT? I worship your little > > trivia-filled head! > > It's moments like this that make my particular brand of chronic weirdness > all worthwhile. Thanks, Cookie! > > k@ > BTW, the flipside to that Dean Friedman song was "Funny Papers." OK. Now you're scaring me. Cookie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:41:08 -0600 From: katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin) Subject: Re: Maxwell's 5/8/99 Set List In article <3737C050.42A8@2cowherder.com>, cookie@2cowherder.com says... > OK. Now you're scaring me. Careful, that sounds like a challenge...do you *really* want to encourage me like that? :) k@ weirdo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:31:31 EDT From: Leah Subject: Re: OT: homophobia?? (was: gay? which was: tshirts) Lori wrote: > > Leah then added: > > >Listen, no offense, really. However, just because your best freind is gay > >doesn't mean that you are not homophobic. Homophobia is so imbedded in > >our society that it is impossible to not have it affect you. > > Exactly. In the most unintentional ways, to the point where we can hurt > those we love the most just because we don't understand. > > >We are all homophobic, and racist and classist. > > Even homosexuals. Even people of color. Even the "lower classes". > Seems illogical, but Leah's right: the messages are so pervasive that > no one can help it. Why do so many gay teenagers and young adults > kill themselves? Because society tells them to loathe themselves -- > and as products of that society, they do, much as they try to overcome > it, much as they try to believe they should accept and find pride in > who they are. That is why the unintended meanings of our casual > conversations hurt so much -- they reinforce that, even among friends, > even among the educated, that socialization forms us all -- and striates > society in our minds into those who are okay, (straight, white, middle > class or "better") and those who are at best less-okay, at worst all > sorts of right-wing epithets. > Thank you for saying more clearly what I was trying to get across. I meant no one ill will. I am not accusing anyone of acting out in overtly prejudicial ways. I was just trying to point out the way that these "social ills" are like smoke in a bar. You may not be the one smoking, but you can't help breathing a little bit in. Leah ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:32:58 +0100 From: Richard Butterworth Subject: Re: Sad Girl (was breast size, and damn did I hate that header :P) Eve Lauria wrote: > I'm not deeply offended. :) Phew! Hell hath no fury like a offended feminist or something... > I can't understand why you don't see this as > a gender politics issue though. Yes, there are appearance > standards whether you are male or female. In fact there is > pressure to BE male or female... I don't see this as a gender issue because I believe what you describe is simply pressure to conform to a social norm and that pressure is applied to men and women by men and women. Yes, I suppose its a gender issue because men and women have genders, but then *any* discussion about human behaviour becomes a gender issue. > But being a man and not being able to wear a dress is about > gender and power. I respectfully don't agree, I think you're over-theorising it and importing gender arguments where they're not needed. I think its simply about human fear and consternation of the Unusual. If lots of men wore skirts then the sight of a man in a skirt would not be Unusual or Initimidating. I spent New Year's Eve in Edinburgh and was totally surrounded by men in kilts and no-one batted an eyelid. (I was also surrounded by a group of drunkards dressed as comedy nuns singing `You're so vain' by Carly Simon, but that's another story.) I could (if I was feeling feverish) import a Freudian paradigm and explain men in skirts being verboten on account of repressed childhood sexual urges about their mothers or some such similar nonsence that Freudians take such joy in blithering on about. Maybe that is the correct explanation, maybe feminist theory explains it, but I don't think so. I think both explanations over-egg the pudding. I like simple explanations, they tend to be the right ones. > It comes in part from the heterosexism of our society > (a man wearing a dress must be gay, which is of course bad), Well yes. And everyone lay off Matt Damon. Rrrowr. > But men (white, heterosexual, middle-class or rich, > Christian, etc. men) have historically been the > oppressors in our world, > and I don't think we can escape that fact. According to the feminist paradigm, yes. According to the Marxist paradigm social division and oppression is caused by class differences and the unfair distribution of capital, nothing much to do with gender at all. Can we escape that fact? Or can we escape the paradigms altogether and view the world outside of some ideology? > They have just had more > opportunities and power. White women also now have a > great deal of the > same, and do use their power in negative ways. Just > like anyone of any social position can do. And the solution to people abusing power is? I don't know. Maybe a culture that distributes power more equally. But what is power? The ability to inflict your will (malignly or benignly) on others? Is that sort of power *ever* just? I think a collective responsibility for society would be a good start, people not believing that they are victimised by society and giving up on society or turning against it, even when society does unjust things. If I feel part of and a responsibility to an unjust society I will do my damnedest to change it for the better. If I simply feel like a victim I will give up on that society, turn against it and myself. I think people know what recent occurence I'm hinting at here. What Lori's original post said, at least to me, was the danger inherent in neurotic `no-one understands me' chic -- that cultural pressure actively *encourages* people into becoming fashionably victimised. I fear that many 19th and 20th century ideologies deliberately make people believe that they are victims, of white heterosexual males, of the ruling classes, of their mothers, of their DNA strands, whatever. I do not believe this to be a universally good thing at all. Of course they will always be victims and injustice, but ideologies and cultures that make *everyone* feel victimised devalue those who really are. Wordily, incomprehensibly, offtopically, Richard - ----------------------------------------------------- "We'll crawl and chew and dig our way into a radical new world. We will change minds and souls from stone and plastic into linen and gold -- that's what I believe. That's what I know." -- Douglas Coupland - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1999 12:16:20 GMT From: bbwminors@aol.com (BBWMinors) Subject: Re: OT - Shel Silverstien Dies I was soooo saddened to open the paper today and read of Uncle Shelby's passing. I hope it was a peaceful one but apparently they don't know ... I was fascinated yet in a way not that surprised to read in his obituary that he had written the lyrics to "Hello Mudda, Hello Fadda," which I was actually singing with my husband in the car yesterday (en route to a family funeral, ironically) ... Yet as much as I love all of his work, perhaps my all-time favorite is one which was not mentioned in any of the reviews, not surprisingly -- "Uncle Shelby's ABZs". Sample pages: "B is for Baby. The baby is fat The baby is pink The baby can cry The baby can laugh See the baby play Play baby play Pretty pretty baby Mommy loves the baby more than she loves you." Or ... "I is for ink Ink is black and wet Ink is fun What can you do with ink? What rhymes with ink? "D R _ _ _" I will miss Uncle Shelby. Maybe someday I will even let Fruprincess Dana read the ABZs. In fact, I may show it to her tonight. I don't think she'll go drink ink. QL ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 1999 12:40:00 GMT From: srm9988n@aol.com.LoriM (Srm9988n) Subject: Re: Sad Girl (was breast size, and damn did I hate that header :P) Richard thought a great deal, mentioned lots of fancy words like Freudian and paradigm that I love to blither on with, and then said: >Of course they will always be victims and injustice, but ideologies and >cultures that make *everyone* feel victimised devalue those who really are. Oh the succinctness of this man. Thank you for your uncommon sense and distillation abilities, Richard. - -- Lori, who agrees on Matt Damon as well. :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:50:11 GMT From: Taryn Chase Subject: speaking of looking straight..ot Preface: i don't know if this is the right time to bring this topic up, what with all the misunderstandings and sensitivities flaring about homophobia/prejudice etc., but since i myself am thoroughly submerged in gay culture (don't know how i got here--just am) i feel justified in talking about this particular aspect--thereby i admit to being familiar with the attraction of straight women to gay men... but even i don't fully understand why. Genesis of thought: the beginning of the Personal Favs thread had me thinking about this alleged straight women/gay men phenomenon (you're familiar with it, i'm sure. it stereotypically sounds like "they have good taste in shoes and we can check out guys together--on a much less competitive plain than with my women friends..." i think there's much more to it than that, but that's for us to develop with the discussion.) as the PF thread continued we obviously branched out a bit, but there's definitely something to this. Development of thought: well, i think kevin spacey may be the only one of these who has actually come out, per se, but many of the others listed as Hotties have at least "played-one-on-tv" (or the bigscreen). granted, this may be due simply to the increasing frequency of gay characters in mainstream programming/writing, but i find it somewhat significant. check this out (an albeit partial) list: ewan mcgregor- velvet goldmine greg kinnear- as good as it gets paul rudd- object of my affection kevin spacey- midnight in the garden of good and evil brendan fraser- gods and monsters ryan phillippe- one life to live (soap) leo dicaprio- total eclipse i'm sure there are a ton more, but i thought it sufficient enough to start an interesting discussion (within or without of the AMMF forum, if you're feeling sensitive about the OT issue.) faghag numero uno, taryn /admitting to *several, though unnumbered* gay ex-boyfriends Post script: on a FruRelated note ;] biggest reason for me to cry today while catching up on the posts: a full rendition of david bowie's 'kooks' from "hunky dory" (from the Met Cafe Review) waaaaaaaaaah. if Anyone At All has a tape of this show and would be willing to trade--have some Compassion, and please get in touch!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:42:51 GMT From: Ellen Subject: Re: Please cut it out? :) - a suggestion In article <19990510185707.13036.00001876@ng-fv1.aol.com>, srm9988n@aol.com.LoriM (Srm9988n) wrote: > And anything that has nothing to do with the band, while it may be > worth sharing, should either be MARKED OT from the get-go, or perhaps > privately > emailed to those the poster feels might be interested rather than to > the ng at > large. this is the best idea i've ever heard for keeping everybody happy on newsgroups/listservs . unfortunately, i've heard it about 80 million times on the dozen or so that i've been on in the past 6 years, and while it would work great if it actually happened... well, it doesn't happen. i'd like to be optimistic one more time and say, "we'll all give it our best effort, and we'll put it in the FAQ, and we'll tell all newbies about it right away," etc. but i'd be very surprised if it isn't already in the FAQ (hey it's been a long time since i've read it, ok? ;) and i'm afraid that i don't have much faith in the rest of that statement either. it's also been my experience that the old-timers who leave do so because they have other things keeping them busy and that usenet has taken on a much smaller role in their lives. getting rid of off-topic posts might fix that, but probably not. if they wanted to be here, they'd be here, wading through the murk with the rest of us. wow, aren't i a ray of sunshine today? peace, ellen ********************************************************************* full of hope, full of grace is the human face... ********************************************************************* - --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- - ---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.--- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:55:13 GMT From: Ellen Subject: Re: OT - Shel Silverstien Dies In article <19990510.180848.-385373.1.petit_chou@juno.com>, petit_chou@juno.com wrote: i loved shel as a kid; in fact i still do. if you are a dreamer, come in if you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar a hoper, a pray-er, a magic-bean buyer if you're a pretender, come sit by my fire for we have some flax-golden tales to spin come in! come in! *sigh* ellen ********************************************************************* ashes ashes, all fall down... ********************************************************************* - --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- - ---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.--- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:09:32 GMT From: Larry Dietrich Subject: Re: speaking of looking straight..ot Taryn Chase wrote in <8525676E.00450BCC.00@mailer.zd.com>: > well, i think kevin spacey may be the only one of these who has actually > come out, per se, ..... Excuse me? Kevin Spacey came out? I'm so out of touch. Dietrich ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #400 ********************************************