From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #211 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Monday, March 1 1999 Volume 03 : Number 211 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: "Zen" Fruvous Songs [jimcclur@ews.uiuc.edu (Jordan I. K. McClure)] Re: Jersey [pirmann@panix.com (David Pirmann)] Re: Jersey [Ellen ] Re: Jersey ["KatieWow" ] Re: about the flyers and curling ["KatieWow" ] Re: FruCon article, and my explanation. [Chad Maloney ] Re: Brown is better ["KatieWow" ] Re: Jersey [] Re: FruCon article, and my explanation. ["KatieWow" ] Re: FruCon article, and my explanation. [Nate DeRose ] Re: Jersey [Alan Sigman ] Re: FruCon article, and my explanation. [Anna! ] Re: Honorary Canadians [Thomas Fazzio ] Quotes! [nafio@my-dejanews.com] Re: FruCon article, and my explanation. [Tim Cain ] My thoughts on Anna's article and the Fruvous Community [Thrawn Lynne writes: >Just to make a point, it probably isn't that she isn't able to pump gas.. >they won't let ya in Jersey. odd state. >:) >-Lynne Speaking as a Jerseyan, I don't want to pump my own gas. Let them come out and pump it in the cold and rain and get the smell of gas all over themselves. . I'll stay in the car. And no arguments about how it would be cheaper with self serv. NJ gas is down to 89 cents for regular at some places. Can't beat that in the neighboring self serve states... - -dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 15:02:34 GMT From: Ellen Subject: Re: Jersey In article , Lynne wrote: > > From: KatieWow > > however, i do drive stick shift, i do go to the shore in the summer, i can't > pump my own gas, > ------------------------------ > > Just to make a point, it probably isn't that she isn't able to pump gas.. > they won't let ya in Jersey. odd state. there's a reason for it, although the reason may seem as backwards to you as it does to me... it's illegal to pump yer own gas in NJ for environmental reasons. NJ gas nozzles have those big accordian-looking plastic hoods on them to trap drips so that more fuel won't evaporate off into the air. from what i understand, they don't trust Joe Citizen to use the pumps properly. they think we'll pull the hoods back or "top off" (this is starting to sound vaguely X-rated), thus leading to More Fuel Spillage and thus Even Worse Air. what strikes me as odd about all this is that Joe NJ Gas Jockey is not really any more likely to be careful than i am, since chances are he/she is some high school kid who hasn't had any more Gas Pump Training than i have. ;) and don't worry, kate, when i graduated high school and prepared to leave NJ, one of the last things i did was to get one of my NJ Gas Jockey friends to show me how to do it so that i wouldn't look stoopid. peace, ellen (you can take the girl out of NJ....) ********************************************************************* The future's here, we are it, we are on our own... ********************************************************************* - -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:40:22 -0500 From: "KatieWow" Subject: Re: Jersey you're paying 89 cents for regular? i paid 77 :). and that wasn't even at one of those infernal wawas. don't buy gas at wawa! ~~kate ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:42:12 -0500 From: "KatieWow" Subject: Re: about the flyers and curling oh no, don't worry. you're rooting for the flyers has nothing to do with früvous or jian. you've just subconsciously become aligned to the fact that the flyers are the greatest team in the nhl. you'd have come around eventually, früvous or not. resistance is futile :). ~~kate ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:41:19 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: FruCon article, and my explanation. "Anna!" wrote: > FruCon *is* fan heaven. The principle of it is amazing, and the fact that it > has had such success two years in a row, is even more amazing. For various > personal reasons (which I don't really feel like going into right here) it > simply wasn't *my* type of scene. This is what I chose to wrote about. Anna, I really appreciate your comments both in the article and bringing it up on the newsgroup. I really hope the main motivation for you posting the URL link was for people to read and not to rationalize why you wrote what you wrote. The secret to being a successful Fruhead is finding what makes you comfortable and doing that. It sounds like you need to figure out what makes you comfortable and makes you enjoy Fruvous more and I think we can all understand that. Don't worry. If we haven't thrown Nate out on his ear for his smarties comments I think everyone is safe... - Chad ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 15:54:49 GMT From: Thrawn Subject: Re: more of that annoying nonsense gibberish frucon 2 review stuffs Quoth George: > phil, colleen, katherine, marie-claude, vika, et al singing message = > and gulf-war song. dominant memory of the weekend. i'll never ever = > ever forget that. Thanks for joining in on such a fun little project. I'm sure if we'd have had more time to practice and a piano to hammer out some notes for those who had trouble following along, we would have sounded a lot better. But, all things considered, I think we sounded pretty decent. Lord knows my voice wasn't up to singing those F's in Jian's part:) Let me know if you ever want to collaborate on anything like that again...I'd love to work on some stuff with ya! - -Phil, whose voice is still not back at 100% Windows 95: noun: (arch): 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition.-StiltMan (http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html) - -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 15:35:58 +0000 From: Richard Butterworth Subject: Re: Sad Today Jon Knight sandpapered a raw nerve with the following comments: > Except for those of us on the eastern side of the Atlantic who can't > get FruMaterial for love nor money (at least if they, like me, don't > possess a credit card and thus can't take advantage of things like > Amazon.com). We'll be getting the new CD (along with all the others) > just slightly after Hell freezes over I'm lead to believe. Rant time! Okay, so I realise that Fruvous have problems with touring here and I fully respect that. In fact I wholeheartedly approve, because if they actually did tour here then I wouldn't have an excuse to nip over the pond and inflict my skinny mandolin playing on you all. However I'm getting increasingly frustrated by the unavailability of any of the CDs here. Its not that we can't get the CDs here, but they're so rare that it makes it completely impossible to Fru-assimilate anyone. The number of times I've had people say `Oo! That's good! Who they?' and I have to say `Moxy Fruvous. They don't release they're stuff here.' And that's the end of the story. No-one is going to spend $30 on an import CD just because they overheard me playing it or arse about with CD-now or whatever (even assuming they have the right credit card and internet connection which many of my friends don't) or go to the effort of getting US cheques to order from Fruvous HQ. *I'm* perversely obsessed enough to quite enjoy the challenge of getting hold of their CDs, but no-one else I know is. I reckon I've Kate Rusby-assimilated[1] half of North London (and a small quotient of the eastern United States) in the past year, usually because people overhear me playing her album and are infected by it or finish up in enclosed spaces with me while I gibber on about how wonderful she is, and when they happen across her album in a shop they buy it. That can't happen with Fruvous, no matter how infected they get listening to my worn out copy of Bargainville or how much I gibber about how wonderful they are. Apparently it is quite a lot of effort to get a distribution deal here, and from what I over-IRC-ed from Frucon Fruvous have decided that they have better things to do. If that's the case then again I fully respect their decision, but (you knew there was a `but' didn't you?)... BNL have (apparently) gone straight into the UK charts at number 5 from being utterly unknown a month ago. I would think that any UK distributor would want to snap up `the next BNL.' Several friends who I dragged along to Fruvous concerts went out afterwards and hunted down similar sounding bands. In particular I have one friend who's now a massive BNL fan, but ironically only after I took her to see Fruvous. (She rings me up occasionally and asks `Are Moxy Fruvous still together? I haven't seen any of their stuff for *ages*.') I suspect that there'll be plenty of people wandering around music shops looking for BNL-a-like bands right now. All those potential Fruvous recruits going to waste. Shame. Anyway, that's that off my chest, skinny as it is. Tinkerty tonk Richard - ----------------------------------------- Salt fare North Sea weird stare further than the eye can see he had a head like a toy shop --`Some old salty'. Trad English song. - ----------------------------------------- [1] Web site , album `Hourglass' released on Compass records in the States! Check it out! Its a life changer! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:04:39 -0500 From: "KatieWow" Subject: Re: That budgie fish postcard it's okay nicole--i am budgie-fish-card devoid as well :(. ~~kate ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:06:49 -0500 From: "KatieWow" Subject: Re: Brown is better oh, lor--where would we be without you trouble? or more importantly, your chocolate :)? ~~kate ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:06:04 -0500 From: Subject: Re: Jersey Speaking as a Jerseyite, I always thought that the reason we have attendents to pump our gas is that during the gas crisis in the 70's we passed a law that required attendents so that people couldn't hoard gas, and when the gas crisis was over we just didn't repeal the law because of some combination of the need to make jobs and placate the elderly (which NJ has the second highest % of in the US.) Also, how is it that NJ gas (where I'm from) is so much cheaper then DC gas (where I live) if NJ has to pay gas pumpers? It's a crazy world. - -Particle Man ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:01:46 -0500 From: "KatieWow" Subject: Re: FruCon article, and my explanation. no need to worry anna :). i too am someone who gets a little wide-eyed and amazed at the lengths some people go to. but, like you said, it's an individual thing. my theme for the weekend tended to be my amazement at and respect for the way früvous and everyone surrounding them tends to conduct their business. in a perfect world, everyone would get to experience their favorite band the way i and the rest of früvous' fans do. and it's hard for some to see the limits sometimes, i think. mike has not only a wife but a "young" one at home who wasn't allowed into the shows. he _had_ to leave; i'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would deny him that. and on sunday night as murray walked by me to leave, i said "g'night murr--good luck in the studio." he looked up at me (i was sitting on the railing), sighed and said, "and goodbye." and left. i wasn't offended--just sympathetic. i know what it's like when you just want to go home. what makes it so hard to see the limits is that no matter how tired the guys are at the end of the night, and no matter how long it's been since they actually slept, behind the tiredness in their eyes, there's a smile. they wouldn't do this if they didn't love it, and they wouldn't come out and say hi if they didn't _really_ want to. they honestly don't have to. there are some people who would stop coming if früvous got too big to be able to do the things they do (and there are some who will when that happens), but the majority of us know that it's really about the music, and not murray's ass or dave's chiseled good looks . . . or mike's thirst :). we'll see them as long as we can afford it (and even beyond that). so we're given an inch and we take a mile--it's all in good fun and in love--of music and of good people. so, i understand where you're coming from anna. i don't think there's a one of us who hasn't had the same thoughts; but we know that when it really comes down to it, we're just a bunch of excitable, emotional music freaks who happen to love the best band in the world--and they happen to reciprocate :). ~~kate ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 11:50:51 -0500 From: Nate DeRose Subject: Re: FruCon article, and my explanation. Chad Maloney wrote: > Don't worry. If we haven't thrown Nate out on his ear for his smarties > comments I think everyone is safe... > :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 11:55:31 -0500 From: Nate DeRose Subject: Re: Jersey KatieWow wrote: > > you're paying 89 cents for regular? i paid 77 :). and that wasn't even at > one of those infernal wawas. > don't buy gas at wawa! > ~~kate Wow!!!!! And I thought VERMONT was low..... we're paying 95 cents a gallon! (And that's the lowest I've seen since highschool!) nate ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 16:51:33 GMT From: Alan Sigman Subject: Re: Jersey "KatieWow" wrote: > >you are correct lynne. pumping your own gas is illegal in new jersey >(except on military property, but that doesn't really count). >that qualification does not, however, negate the fact that the one time i >actually tried to pump my own gas i ended up looking like a complete fool >and had to summon the pissed-off attendant from inside his little glass >booth to help. blech. You can always spot us New Jersey people when we're out of state and we suddenly have to pump our own gas. We're the only ones who actually stop to read the instructions on the pump first, and refer to them between each step. -Alan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 16:29:58 GMT From: Anna! Subject: Re: FruCon article, and my explanation. In article <7be7oc$fr2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, cricket5@hotmail.com wrote: > PS > Kudos, Chris O'Malley, your answers in that article were excellent. It bears repeating, and he's seen it before (from me and certainly countless others!) but Chris rocks :) - -anna- http://www.eccentrica.org/elements - -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 11:36:03 -0500 From: Thomas Fazzio Subject: Re: Honorary Canadians Unfortunately the script that processes the survey does not seem to work for me. Anyone having the same tough luck, or better yet, good luck? later, tom. Revell Sara E wrote: > Try the "Are you Canadian Quiz" > http://www.islandnet.com/~drtongue/canada.html > > That should help out! (and it's funny!) > > Sara > _______ > > The secret of life: breathe in, breathe out, repeat. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 16:44:12 GMT From: nafio@my-dejanews.com Subject: Quotes! Well it's March 1st, which means the guys are in the studio (Bye guys! Send us a Quill!), but more importantly, means the quote page has been updated. I haven't added to/changed the extra sections but February is up. http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Lounge/3227/ Enjoy! And correct me if I messed up somewhere! Fiona "...so our cash for dave's drink couldn't have been amortized...unless he's considering dave's drink an asset...and boy would *that* be a temporary asset ;>" - Drea Feb 27 1999 - -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 16:56:19 GMT From: Tim Cain Subject: Re: FruCon article, and my explanation. Heck, didn't bother me any. And I was the one standing in the back all weekend. Actually, once in a while throughout the weekend, I was going through a similar thought process. I wasn't sure I could consider myself a "true" fan. But then I realized you have to make that fit your personality. I'm too old to stand on the dance floor for four to six hours for a show, so I stand in the back. I don't want to hear myself sing, so I marvel when the audience harmonizes on "The Drinking Song." I'm disappointed if I don't hear a group somewhere do the train sound on "Green Eggs and Ham." What astonished me about Saturday was how calm the room was when the guys showed up. I've seen enough situations like that where there HASN'T been calm that I was grateful for how everyone behaved. I've seen and been in situations where people guarding the performer have had to think, "He may go down, but these lunatics are going to have to go through me first." There's rarely a hint of that around Fruvous, and there was none of it at the Ramada. Refreshing. Frankly, I was more irritated by a note on the Susan Werner mailing list where someone made reference to finding the Fruvous fans' devotion (paraphrasing) "cute but a little frightening." I started to delurk by writing a note that pointed out all fanatacism by nature is frightening to outsiders, and if that devotion isn't hurting anyone, then what the hell do you care? But I deleted it, realizing I was back on my haunches for the wrong reason. I've got to save that venom for people who actually claim to enjoy John Tesh's music. - --tc tcain1@webmart.net "That was absolutely perfect, without being actually any good." -- Jools Holland, 'Spice World' ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:23:56 GMT From: Thrawn Subject: My thoughts on Anna's article and the Fruvous Community Anna! wrote: > which I'm sure I hold in my own way, but from one or two personal attacks > that we made on me, for *not* being the typical fan. Because it is > *completely* unrepresentative of anyone I have ever spoken to on the boards > or IRC, it wasn't something that needs to be discussed really, but it hurt [snip] > shouldn't make me better or worse. Just different, which is fine with me, and > probably you (Fiona as well as the collective ng), but not the people who saw > fit to tell me, "you don't act *this* way...you are not a *real* fan." Well, after reading all that has gone on so far, I feel I must say my peace. I had a few discussions with some fans (who will remain nameless) who have been part of the Moxy Fruvous "scene" for a few years now. My discussion was about some things I've seen happen between members of the Fruvous community over the past few years. I've seen people "gang up" on people on IRC in the hopes that they will just leave. I've seen them then shout their opinions of that person for all to hear once they've left without thinking or caring about whether other people around might like that person (or at least not have an UNfavorable opinion about them). I've also seen friends leave the scene altogether because they couldn't handle the horribly personal insults and comments made about them in front of everyone. I've seen battles fought over who is Moxy Fruvous Fan #1 or Moxy's Biggest Fan. I know people who don't feel they can come to concerts anymore because of what they'll face from other fans. Frankly, this makes me sick to my stomach. As was previously stated, we all have one thing in common: Moxy Fruvous' music. While a vast majority of us have more than just that in common, it is quite possible that that is the ONLY thing some of us have in common with others. Each of us has a special place for the lads in our hearts and our lives. What means a great deal to one person may not matter all that much to the next. For example, I don't believe I have a single piece of anything autographed by the guys. I just don't feel a need to collect autographs nor do I need that to prove I talked to them or something. This doesn't make me any more or less of a fan than anyone else, nor am I saying that those of you who do get autographs do so for the above stated reasons. I celebrate concerts however I see fit...sometimes I do the handjive, sometimes I don't feel like it. It doesn't mean I get into the song more or less when I do it. My point is that we're talking about hundreds of people. We don't all have to be best friends, we don't all have to get a picture taken with the guys, we don't all have to be Liberal Democrats, we don't all have to know every lyric to every song, we don't all have to read this newsgroup or chat on #moxy, we don't all have to have one of them know us by name, we don't all have to own the latest merchandise, and we don't all have to chastise anyone who fails to meet any of these criteria. If we all MET these criteria, we really would be the cult Jian joked about. What we do have to do is be tolerant and respectful towards each other. This has been the one dominant thing about most Moxy fans that makes this family such an enjoyable one to be a part of. Most of the discussions on this newsgroup were born of these very things...debate, not argument/conflict...acceptance, not discrimination. Anna, I have seen what you spoke of happen to a few people now. Fortunately, these incidents seem to be few and far between. It's up to all of us to help keep it that way. Thank you for writing your article...whether or not by intention, you have brought a very important topic to the discussion of the newsgroup. My peace has been said for now. Phil - -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:35:39 -0500 From: "Jay O'Brien" Subject: Re: FruCon article, and my explanation. Nate DeRose wrote: > Chad Maloney wrote: > > Don't worry. If we haven't thrown Nate out on his ear for his smarties > > comments I think everyone is safe... > > > > :) > > I must empathize with nate.. however we intend to expose everyone to "our" known version of smarties in the future... ..little, yellow, different, canadian smarties (c) - -jay ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:47:59 GMT From: hugrod@home.com (Hugo Rodrigues) Subject: Difficulties with criticism? (was Frucon article...) After reading both Inkblot articles and the reaction to Anna's post here... I'm asking myself this one question: Are Fruheads too up on themselves to accept criticism from "the others?" I think that a growing number of us are. We meet any criticism with "Well, you simply don't understand what it means to be a Fruhead" type of answers. We cringe when other people express their discomfort with our at times unlevelheaded approach to being fans. Want proof? Look at last year's Mr. Jones episode and then realise that some more prominent Fruheads *refuse* to even mention it. Let's face it: we're crazy. Doing the things we do to show our appreciation for the band is nuts! That doesn't mean that we're all psychotic or evil. It should mean that we should accept critcism from within or from "the others" without getting cranky. We all know people who think we're nuts. It's time to start acknowledging to ourselves that we're a little fucked up sometimes. Anna: congrats on expressing your opinions about Frucon. That takes a lot more guts than any reply I've read on this newsgroup. "there goes me / giving in easily / trying too hard to please / soft in the middle" -- Susan Werner, "Standing in my own way" *MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO* Hugo Rodrigues Hugs on the Undernet Journalism Student hugrod@home.com http://members.home.net/hugrod/ Forever Fruvous!!! *MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO*MOO* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:30:28 GMT From: wahrend@my-dejanews.com Subject: Re: FruCon article, and my explanation. I'm usually one to shoot my mouth off so I am going to try to bite my tongue on this one. But I do have some points to make, so until I say my peace this is going to bother me. I find it really odd why someone who has written an unflattering piece about the fans of Moxy Fruvous would post about it to a newsgroup for the fans, of the fans, by the fans. Kind of like writing a negative review about the upcoming album and then sending email to the band saying "hey I've got a review", "but its really not what I think about the album". Its only going to incite a negative response. But I guess any news is good news. > I am very afraid that the piece comes out sounding like an attack on the con, > and even worse, an attack on the fans. I want people who read it to understand > that isn't my intention at all. I find it difficult not to read an attack on the fans in this piece. Maybe I'm not reading it carefully enough or not reading between the lines, but if I'm trying to find good and I am a fan and I know and empathize with a lot of people who follow the band, what is the average person going to think? FruCon is an event for people who are excited about the band and wish to share that excitement with other people. Its a community thing. Getting together and singing the gulf war song or attempting to do a cross word puzzle, attempting to share the poetry of horseshoes with someone that might not be able to appreciate the music, these are not bad things. To the outside person, yes, they might be excessive, no more excessive than playing air guitar to a song, or throwing mac & cheese at a band (and thank goodness we don't throw stuff at our band) or name your favorite artist here. > I had a great time in Toronto last weekend, I should have made that more clear > in the article. I met a lot of awesome people too, which I should have made > abundantly more clear. I didn't do either of those things, but it's too late > now. People choose what they want to focus on. Its hard not to focus on something that leaves a bad taste in your mouth, even if there were so many wonderful things that may have happened, I guess its just human nature (little early for philosophy though). > Please read the article and understand that it isn't an attack. It's a series > of observations and opinions. Not attacks. In a small way, the fans do represent the band. In many ways, I think this is good because I find that there is an overabundance of talented, funny, happy go lucky, opinionated (at times) and cool people who follow this band (which from all indications is a reflection of the band as I know them, although I wouldn't be as presumtious to say that I know them). If it didn't attract such people I would be content to sit and wait for a concert to come to me. In many ways, I go to concerts to see people I know and am friends with, whom I would almost never see if I didn't get out. So when a fan says that we're a bunch of crazies it's difficult to swallow, even if it is an opinion piece. But that is just my personal opinion. And if people made you feel like you weren't a fan I'm sorry about that, but you shouldn't judge us based on your reaction to a couple of "fans" opinions. Very difficult to write an objective piece when you have such a small sample of the overal fruhead base. > If I seem somewhat obsessed with explaining this, it's because of how much I > appreciate and am continually impressed by the coolness of everyone involved > in Moxy Fruvous. This obviously includes the band, and most definitely the > fans. It would upset me a lot if people were to think otherwise. As a huge > fan myself, I would hate to feel like I was "betraying my own". I'm sure we'll get over it. Things like this happen and we obsess about them and then they go away. Tis the way of the force. > So, read the article (and Lisa's too! She got quotes!) and please keep this > explanation in mind. And if you want to talk about it, there is a link to my > email with the article, I'd be more then happy to explain further. I'd more interested in hearing an article that more accurately reflects your opinions of the band, fans, etc instead of you trying to explain the one that is currently out there. But thats just me. "wild" Bill I hope that you don't think this is an attack, because it isn't. Just giving my opinions on your opinion. But opinions are like noses, everyone has one. - -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #211 ********************************************