From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #152 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Saturday, February 13 1999 Volume 03 : Number 152 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Ohioans (was American Smarties) ["^kat^" ] Re: New spring dates ["^kat^" ] FruCon ["Hell Hotel" ] Re: Kevorkian [Andreas LoCicero ] Re: 9:30 Club Review (probably long) [bbwminors@aol.com (BBWMinors)] Jian's NG references [bbwminors@aol.com (BBWMinors)] Re: Oh...hi, by the way [katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin Luessenheide Saly] Re: 9:30 Club Review (probably long) ["KatieWow" ] Re: WAITING FOR BOB!!!!! *ROTFL* [stereopuff@aol.com (StereoPuff)] Re: A message from Jian regarding Philadelphia [jenncyn@aol.com (JennCyn)] Re: Ohioans (was American Smarties) [Rachael Rosenthal ] Re: 9:30 Club Review (probably long) ["Joshua Valocchi" ] Re: A message from Jian regarding Philadelphia [petit_chou@juno.com] Re: capital punishment [thomas_taylor@bigfoot.com (Thomas Taylor)] Re: 9:30 Club Review (probably long) [petit_chou@juno.com] Re: 9:30 Club Review (probably long) [Srm9988n@aol.com] Re: A message from Jian regarding Philadelphia [jianbabe@aol.com (JianBab] Re: Ohioans (Was Canadian Smarties) [Donna ] Re: Philly City Paper Troc Piece [gemini@p3.net (Trace)] Re: capital punishment [gemini@p3.net (Trace)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:41:02 -0500 From: "^kat^" Subject: Re: Ohioans (was American Smarties) Donna wrote ... >Now hold on one second! There's more to Ohio than just Corn! sure, of *course* there is... but before we convince the readers otherwise, may i state that in the greater dayton area *alone* there were about 7 corn mazes last fall. just wanting to paint an honest portrayal of ohio's *true* relationship with corn and other agrarian delights... >There's... well... there's Cleveland! :) mm-hmm. and toledo, as someone else so aptly pointed out. we're just a hotbed of gorgeous cities. >PS Hello OHioans! I'm thrilled to "meet" ya! right back at ya, donna. hope to catch up w/ you at a frushow in columbus this summer! ohioan for 17 years and counting, ^kat^ "someday you'll rot in your urban malaise..." http://fly.to/the.midway.after.dark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:29:53 -0500 From: "^kat^" Subject: Re: New spring dates Chewbacca wrote... >OK. ACErs, unite..... but HOW oh HOW could you choose the Raptor over >the Mantis??? OH, my heart.... :) *grin* i know, i know... every time i say that the person to whom i'm speaking gives me this blank stare & asks if i even *rode* the mantis. truthfully... i just didn't like it as well. the raptor was simply more fun. maybe it was b/c while waiting in line for the mantis i was subjected to blaring country muzak videos doing battle w/ the noise from the coaster itself (that coaster is freakin' *loud*!!)... on the whole, standing coaster just aren't my bag. so no, i'm not insane, i've got a rationale, i swear... :) >How much notice do you people need? It'll be at least May 11 before I >can verify a number of free passes... and probably around that time >before Jason and I can arrange schedules to commit to any dates. Right >now we're looking for the trip anywhere from June 12-July 4. well, my summer is looking to be fairly open right now. things could pop up at any moment, but i'm trying to keep it as empty as possible so that i can milk the most unscheduled free time from my last summer of true freedom. *grin* whatever works for the rest of you, i'll make it work for me. >> http://fly.to/the.midway.after.dark >(you DON'T want to do that... some of the wonderful things we found in >the mornings on cleanup before the park opened..... *shudder*) *heehee* wow, i'm not sure i even want to know... kinda ruins the imagery of the song. oh, well. so, any other takers for the frufan cedar point excursion? ^kat^ "now i'll never ever have to think twice" http://fly.to/the.midway.after.dark ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 1999 18:09:15 GMT From: "Hell Hotel" Subject: FruCon Hey, is anyone here going to do anything to make it easy for NGers to distinguish other NGers out the the crowd? I remember someone talking about NG pins awhile back. we could at least get some of those Name Tags and put a big "NG" on it, or something like that. If no one else has any plans to do anything like this I can easily pick up a bunch of those "hello my name is" stickers...could use those to dientify each other. well, if I'm gonna do that I'll also need to know how many NGers are gonna be at the Con. soo....please tell me what y'all think. - -Eric HellHotel@tmbg.org Http://i.am/HellHotel **************************************************************************** fruvous: (froo`ves)n 1. Magical monk-baked pastry loaf. 2.High stakes Mesopotamian board game. 3.Sound produced when yogurt dollops are dropped in searing liquid. adj 1. Unflappable(after legendary crusader Marion~) 2. Multi-legged and aural. see MOXY FRUVOUS **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:10:03 GMT From: Andreas LoCicero Subject: Re: Kevorkian - ---Emunah Hukim wrote: > > AJ, > > Perhaps you are unaware of this, but I am *from* Michigan and, as I feel > strongly enough about this topic, I have followed Kevorkian in the news > since 1993 or so, when he first *made* the news. Arabel, So am I and so have I. In fact, it feels like it was even earlier than '93 that all this started, but honestly I don't remember any more. > I have personally talked to Jack, and while I readily admit that it's been > two years, I still have nothing against him. From what I understand, the > "patients" have never been coerced into going to him -- it's always been a > free will decision to make that call, and he's always taken their word on > the need to be helped. Well, I can't claim to have ever spoken with him, (and really, I don't think I'd want to.) But I have certainly been following his exploits since the beginning. As far as people giving their consent, I don't think he went out and kidnapped them. Obviously, they came to him. But just because someone says they want to die doesn't mean that it is ok to help them do so. Places that have legal assisted suicide (and even euthenasia) require multiple medical opininons of the terminal status of the patient. Kevorkian just takes their word for it?!? He should go to jail just for that! Thus, while I am well aware of all the media > coverage, I also continue to support someone who is, ultimately, risking > his life by continuing to provide such a service. Or to put it another way: support someone who is ultimately flaunting the law, ignoring court orders, violating the medical precept of "first do no harm," and killing people just because they alledgedly want him to. If you ask me, he has singlehandedly set the whole issue of assisted suicide (a very important question, I will agree) back at least 10 years. > I envision you as young, probably 18, maybe 19. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I > always had this sort of hope that Früheads were a lot more open-minded as a > general crowd. Really, calling him a ghoul when all you know of him is > what the TV represents? I'd hate to see what you thought of me. I don't think badly of you. I think you have a lot of opinions that are fairly out of line with my own. You have some very good reasons for some of those opinions, but interestingly, whereas you seem to think that my deliberations are a bit on the immature side, that is rather how I see yours. (Not a slam, just an observation). I am surprised at the suggestion that I am closed minded, as I pride myself (and I think my reputation here on the NG and elsewhere will bear me out) on my open-mindedness. Frankly, I believe that assisted suicide is an issue on which reasonable people can disagree. My wife Lisa is a big supporter of the right to assisted suicide, but she, too, would use the word ghoul in connection with Kevorkian. He and assisted suicide are really two separate issues. As for my age, I don't see what that has to do with anything, and I'm perplexed that you would bring it up in a public newsgroup. Rather than express your opinion, you are trying to minimize mine by projecting me as young and inexperienced? The 16-19 year olds on this NG would have a field day laying into you for that one! :) Seriously, I'm probably older than you are. :P :) > PS while I do understand that we all have differing viewpoints, please > realize that I long ago got over the harsh feelings that dictated my stance > on such issues. Several years worth of research and contemplation have > resulted in the ideologies I support. I'll have to accept your say so on that. For my part, I am a rather logical person and am pretty good at separating my "feelings" from my thoughts, so you can rest assured that my ramblings are also the result of contemplation. A.J. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 1999 19:46:59 GMT From: bbwminors@aol.com (BBWMinors) Subject: Re: 9:30 Club Review (probably long) I believe "Whiter Shade of Pale" is by Procul Harum, based on the Canterbury Tales. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 1999 19:49:03 GMT From: bbwminors@aol.com (BBWMinors) Subject: Jian's NG references Oka,y just remembered what I took to be the other NG reference at the 930 and that was "Freebird!!!" Then again, it could have simply been coincidence. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:47:19 -0700 From: katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin Luessenheide Salyers) Subject: Re: Oh...hi, by the way In article <19990213123010.04942.00000448@ngol07.aol.com>, moonzpirit@aol.command says... > Many years ago--perhaps 1986--my friends and I got into a serious debate about > how Twinkies are produced--flat side down, like bread, or flat side up, like an > elongated cupcake. We ended up writing Hostess for the answer. They even > replied, & sent us all "I love Hostess cakes" bumper stickers. > > I won't give up the answer yet, allowing time for any debate that may ensue. I > will tell you that of 8 people, only two had the right answer, so it's not as > simple as one might think... Well, in that case - my initial response would have been "flat side down", as I think most people's would be (yeah, since when are my ideas like most people's?), so the probable right answer is "flat side up". Which, now that I think about it, makes sense, 'cause that's where they inject the cream filling. Am I right? Oh, and on a tangential note: Someone once told me that Twinkies are *not* baked; the ingredients are solidified through some kind of chemical reaction. But then the same person told me that they were misinformed, and Twinkies are baked after all. k@ feeling like Wally Shawn trying to determine which cup has the poison ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:36:16 -0500 From: "KatieWow" Subject: Re: 9:30 Club Review (probably long) yes, it was definitely "whiter shade of pale." i was at my theology professor's house for dinner on wednesday night (sacrificing my bela fleck tickets--doh!) and he put an annie lennox CD on that contained "pale" and a cover of "train in vain." i commented on the cover and he bet me that i couldn't name the band that did it originally. the clash--duh :). the night devolved into a "name that band" quiz, and my entire class got it on it. i only missed one ("carry on my wayward son" is kansas, not styx. i still say they're the same band :), and he promised to make me a certificate of some sort. ~~kate - -- **************************************************************************** Kate Leahy kleahy@loyola.edu **************************************************************************** nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight - --bruce cockburn, "lovers in a dangerous time" and so the problem remained; lots of the people were mean, and most of them were miserable, even the ones with digital watches. - --douglas adams, "hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy" we're splitting into two camps--mike, i'm with you. - --jian ghomeshi, bottom line, 1/1 *************************************************************************** Vika Zafrin wrote in message <36c59985.3502300@news3.ibm.net>... >Chad Maloney delighted us with: > >>After the audience response sutff, the crowd was really riled up. >>They started yelling out songs and stuff. Dave's response was >>that they weren't going to play Lighter Shade of Grey (or >>something like that) until the encore. > >Could that have been Whiter Shade of Pale? A gorgeous song that I >first heard sung by Annie Lenox, but I think she was covering it. >Unfortunately, I am not sure who the original author is/was. > >Would be an interesting song to have Fruvous cover. To be honest, it >doesn't seem like "their" kind of song to cover, but I think they >could do it beautifully. > >>It was Johnny Saucep'n. It was like a minute long. People liked it. > >They're going for record time, aren't they? Anyone know how long the >shortest [full] version of it they ever did was? There's a trivia >question. > >-v, five days til roadtrip.....five days, five days... *click click* > > >Vika Zafrin, vika at ibm dot net > >"[Our dog] gives birth every three years, like clockwork, > to puppies that look like a hybrid between a stray and a > crocodile." -from Anton Chekhov's correspondence ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 1999 20:28:56 GMT From: stereopuff@aol.com (StereoPuff) Subject: Re: WAITING FOR BOB!!!!! *ROTFL* >Doug 'n Kat, you are absolutely the BEST!!!!!!!! >Everyone please please pleeeeeeeeeeeease check out today's Waiting For >Bob. Fruhead heaven!! ;) now if only those dolls actually existed... (are you listening, Ty?) although methinks the one on the right looks more like Andy Partridge than Dave... :) ~MikeWood [with new kung-fu-grip!] ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 1999 20:29:10 GMT From: jenncyn@aol.com (JennCyn) Subject: Re: A message from Jian regarding Philadelphia > At 930, there were two that I noticed ... his comment about Jewel's poetry > being s*** (I only write that because I got TOS'ed once) and there was a second > which I'm completely blanking out on but I know Chad mentioned it in his > (really great) review. > I know on the Jewel comment Fruchild and I looked at each other and kind of > giggled knowingly. This is true, although they've been going off on Jewel's poetry for a _long_ time. I remember hearing them joke about it at the Minneapolis gig last June... Either way, it's good to see that opinion shared! ;) - - j ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:41:35 -0500 From: Rachael Rosenthal Subject: Re: Ohioans (was American Smarties) hmmm isn't there also a race track there or something also..... Rachael BBWMinors wrote: > Okay, I have to speak up in defense of at least ONE GOOD THING about Toledo, > which is its Museum which really rocks (and I'm not only saying that because my > very cool uncle was just named its new director last month). > > Their zoo is also very nice, very kid-friendly. > > And of course the Toledo Mud Hens are a blast ... > > So that's THREE THINGS THAT ARE COOL ABOUT TOLEDO. > > Queen Lisa, niece of very cool uncle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:26:56 -0600 From: shalini trivedi Subject: Re: Oh...hi, by the way hehe.....carol, you've created a nostril-flaring monster! i find it neccessary to inform this newsgroup that i've never had a twinkie....my mother always refused to buy them for my (older) brother and i when we were kids, and now.....i've heard so much about nasty stuff about them, i refuse to eat them.... ahem....but anyway, that was a digression.... what do y'all think of the fruit n' cream twinkies? i'm just curious...i've never had one of those either, but i've heard they're vile... ************************************************ * "...not in the * Shalini Trivedi * * American sense; * Chemical Engineering * * that would be * College of LAS * * insane!" *University of Illinois* * - Jian Ghomeshi * Urbana-Champaign * ************************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:32:52 GMT From: "Joshua Valocchi" Subject: Re: 9:30 Club Review (probably long) Just for the record, folks - "Whiter Shade of Pale" is a Procol Harem original... And on a completely unrelated note, was I the ONLY one that heard a "Daytripper" tease before Fly (or was it Michy?) at the Troc? Just wondering... joshua. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:36:49 GMT From: "Zainab" Subject: Re: WAITING FOR BOB!!!!! *ROTFL* >>Doug 'n Kat, you are absolutely the BEST!!!!!!!! >>Everyone please please pleeeeeeeeeeeease check out today's Waiting For >>Bob. Fruhead heaven!! ;) > >now if only those dolls actually existed... (are you listening, Ty?) >although methinks the one on the right looks more like Andy Partridge than >Dave... :) > >~MikeWood >[with new kung-fu-grip!] But they *do* exist!! They *do*!!! That's what's so cool about the comic...which is awesome, btw!!! Zainab ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:16:09 GMT From: petit_chou@juno.com Subject: Re: A message from Jian regarding Philadelphia Lisa, Queen of all Frudom said: >At 930, there were two that I noticed ... his comment about Jewel's >poetry being s*** [snippity snip snip] >I know on the Jewel comment Fruchild and I looked at each other and >kind of giggled knowingly. I'm so sad that I couldn't have seen that, being Jewel's Number One Fan! (sarcasm detectors ON!) Heather Moore, instigator ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:56:11 GMT From: thomas_taylor@bigfoot.com (Thomas Taylor) Subject: Re: capital punishment On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:08:44 -0800, cookie wrote: >> To me any one of these arguments is reason enough to refute any argument >> in favour of state sanctioned killing. There are of course, many more >> subjective arguments pro and anti the death penalty. I've tried to >> contain myself to objective anti reasons. If there are objective pro >> reasosns I'd be interested to hear them. > >Ironically, I think one of the strongest arguments for people supporting >the death penalty is Biblical. (Death in the name of the God of love!) >There are several passages that say (paraphrasing, since my Grandmother >isn't here to point me to the exact scriptures,) that when someone >commits murder, you should put them to death...and eye for an eye...etc. >And let's face it, there really isn't as much of a separation of the >Christian Church and State in this country as I would like there to be. >Heck, the Senate opened the impeachment deliberations with a PRAYER, for >crying out loud. While generally I think that the old adage, "You can use the Bible to prove anything you want," is wishy-washy cop-out offered up by people unwilling or unable to do their own reading and interpretation, on capital punishment there is a great deal of scripture that can be interpreted as coming down on both sides. From my own reading, I find that most of that which is quoted as being pro-DP is either taken grossly out of context and is misinterpreted, or is part of one of the listings of rulings and laws which are generally considered archaic and barbaric, eg, Leviticus. Christians in particular are called to examine the Old Testament (where much of the pro-DP scripture lies) through the lens of the New Testament, especially the Gospels. On an eye for an eye, Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you , Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also... You have heard that it was said 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes the sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. . . You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:38-48). Also, when faced with the death penalty (a crowd ready to hurl stones against an adulteress), Jesus suggested that "he who is without sin cast the first stone." Now, I'm not in fact a person who suggests that people (least of all national governments) live their life and make all decisions according to Scripture. I just like to point out that for those who do feel that life should be lived according to Scripture, the Biblical lessons to be learned on DP are *much* more complicated than "an eye for an eye." In any case, the best that you can do is to come down on the side of capital punishment in theory. All Biblical passages used to support DP suggest that the death penalty be meted out in the name of *justice*. I cannot imagine that any of the quoted Biblical figures would look at the practice of DP in the US today and say that it is just. Innocent people are regularly sentenced to death, those with financial means are far less likely to be convicted than those without, those who murder white people are for more likely to be charged with capital crimes than those who murder people of color, and people of color charged with capital crimes are executed at a disproportionate rate compared to white people. For these and other reasons, the official position of many major denominations in the US is anti-DP. (see http://www.envisioning.org/abolition/calls.htm for a list) Anyway, I wasn't going to get back involved in this thread, but when people start talking about religious support for DP in absence of what I feel are crucial facts on the issue, I get a little riled up. - -- Thomas Taylor Philadelphia, PA thomas_taylor@bigfoot.com http://www.bigfoot.com/~thomas_taylor ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:06:41 GMT From: petit_chou@juno.com Subject: Re: 9:30 Club Review (probably long) kate said: >he put an annie lennox CD on that contained...a cover of "train in vain." Okay, I've just got to get in that I think Annie's version is amazing. Yeah, I'm a big Clash fan, actually, but her version intrigues me greatly. She just rocks my world, that woman. Dave Stewart, too. Great musicians. Heather Moore ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:06:15 GMT From: Srm9988n@aol.com Subject: Re: 9:30 Club Review (probably long) Vika the Bold noted: >Chad Maloney delighted us with: > >After the audience response sutff, the crowd was really riled up. > >They started yelling out songs and stuff. Dave's response was > >that they weren't going to play Lighter Shade of Grey (or > >something like that) until the encore. > Could that have been Whiter Shade of Pale? A gorgeous song that I > first heard sung by Annie Lenox, but I think she was covering it. > Unfortunately, I am not sure who the original author is/was Procol Harem, a late-60's sort-of acid band. Yes, I'm showing my age again. It's on the soundtrack to The Big Chill, a movie you youngsters may or may not have heard of. :) - -- Lori ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 1999 22:29:29 GMT From: jianbabe@aol.com (JianBabe) Subject: Re: A message from Jian regarding Philadelphia >>At 930, there were two that I noticed ... his comment about Jewel's >>poetry being s*** He made a similiar comment at the Troc. My neighbor, A Jewel fan, was with me, but, she thought it was pretty funny, and has made references to it all week. She was less amused with his comment during the Hippies&Geeks improv...."Let's all go home and listen to Dave Matthews Band!" Personally, I thought that was hysterical! ~joni "Go out and tell our story, let it echo far and wide, make them hear you...my path may lead to heaven or hell and God will say what's best, but one thing he will never say is that I went quietly to my rest." Coalhouse Walker Jr. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:29:09 GMT From: Donna Subject: Re: Ohioans (Was Canadian Smarties) But, But, I thought Toledo was in Michigan! ;) (Or, really really wanted to be) hee hee! donna >So that's THREE THINGS THAT ARE COOL ABOUT TOLEDO. >Queen Lisa, niece of very cool uncle ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I was out in the field, collecting strength for my shield-- and I misplaced what made me real." --- Moxy Früvous ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:43:10 GMT From: gemini@p3.net (Trace) Subject: Re: Philly City Paper Troc Piece On Sat, 13 Feb 1999 04:30:15 GMT, Srm9988n@aol.com wrote: > >It's not like we're a secret organization. We're a public forum. And >I'm not ashamed of anything that's been said (well, at least on this >topic ;-) ) and I don't think anyone else needs to be either. It's good >that they know how we feel, and that the band takes us seriously. Oh, I'm not ashamed, I just never would have thought anyone from the outside world would care :) A bunch of Fruheads are upset. The band won't play the Troc again. Whoopdee. It was apparently newsworthy though :) On a side note, couldn't they have used a more recent photo for that article? Sheesh. - -- Trace gemini@p3.net *sniff* Target is within sniffing range. Hailing on all frequencies. *woop woop* Visual acquired. Our bogie is at 9:00. Fire when ready. - 1/1 BL dum tek ca tek tek ca tek tek *snort* ARGH *glare* Follow THAT one lads.... - 1/2 BL ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:37:20 GMT From: gemini@p3.net (Trace) Subject: Re: capital punishment On Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:56:11 GMT, thomas_taylor@bigfoot.com (Thomas Taylor) wrote: > >While generally I think that the old adage, "You can use the Bible to prove >anything you want," is wishy-washy cop-out offered up by people unwilling >or unable to do their own reading and interpretation, on capital punishment >there is a great deal of scripture that can be interpreted as coming down >on both sides. From my own reading, I find that most of that which is >quoted as being pro-DP is either taken grossly out of context and is >misinterpreted, or is part of one of the listings of rulings and laws which >are generally considered archaic and barbaric, eg, Leviticus. I'd just thought I'd point out something in defense of those people who hesitate to use the Bible as evidence. One thing most people forget is that the Bible they are reading (in most cases) is a translation. This may seem like a minor point, but differences in translation can make an enormous difference in subsequent interpretations. For what it's worth....which is exactly $.02 - -- Trace gemini@p3.net *sniff* Target is within sniffing range. Hailing on all frequencies. *woop woop* Visual acquired. Our bogie is at 9:00. Fire when ready. - 1/1 BL dum tek ca tek tek ca tek tek *snort* ARGH *glare* Follow THAT one lads.... - 1/2 BL ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V3 #152 ********************************************