From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V2 #136 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Friday, December 18 1998 Volume 02 : Number 136 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Gulf War - Part II [shazalinrea@juno.com (Mindy J Munson)] Re: Murray Sings (was Fruvous Dreams) [shazalinrea@juno.com (Mindy J Muns] Oh, great. [katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin Luessenheide Salyers)] Re: Starbucks [kazmar100@aol.com (Kazmar100)] Re: [Re: Holiday Music] [shweiss17@aol.com (SHWeiss17)] Re: Murray sings (was Fruvous Dreams) [nicole.the.wonder.nerd.is@ana.ng.a] Re: Happy Rushmas [nicole.the.wonder.nerd.is@ana.ng.at.tmbg.org (Nicole t] Re: Tripping over my Soapbox (Gulf War Song II) [nicole.the.wonder.nerd.i] new to the group [krazy924@aol.com (Krazy924)] Re: Murray sings (was Fruvous Dreams) [petit_chou@juno.com] Re: Happy Rushmas [petit_chou@juno.com] Re: Murray Sings (was Fruvous Dreams) [petit_chou@juno.com] Ro(/u)sh Hashanah [petit_chou@juno.com] Re: Tripping over my Soapbox (Gulf War Song II) [vika@ibm.net (Vika Zafri] Re: Gulf War - Part II [vika@ibm.net (Vika Zafrin)] Re: Happy Rushmas (also politics, gulf war and square one) [Thomas Fazzio] Re: Gulf War - Part II [Thomas Fazzio ] Re: Gulf War - Part II [Richard Butterworth writes: > it is just that I hate >and fear war so much. Ditto, but I do think, sad as it is, this war will actually save more lives in the end if Sadam happens to be one of the casualties. Is just too damn sad that there are people like this, and the whole fact that situations get so bad that we feel we need war! Fruchild ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 05:25:38 GMT From: shazalinrea@juno.com (Mindy J Munson) Subject: Re: Murray Sings (was Fruvous Dreams) On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:54:12 GMT petit_chou@juno.com writes: >To which I (Fru-licious) say: >Ummmmmm, YEAH! Hell-O, he's only got, like, the dreamiest voice this >side of Harry Connick Jr.! Yeesh. Does this question even need to be >asked?!? Sing, Murray, SING! Sing your pants off (not an altogether >unappealing prospect)! > >Heather Moore LOL! Not unappealing at all! Yeah! Another Harry Connick Jr. fan!!! But I partial to Murray. Fruchild ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:38:10 -0700 From: katrin@dimensional.com (Katrin Luessenheide Salyers) Subject: Oh, great. In article , Srm9988n@aol.com says... > Whatzitcalled??! WherecanIrentit??! AAIIIIEEEE! I knew I was gonna get in trouble for that...I don't suppose it would help to say that it wasn't *my* idea to rent it? Anyway, it's called "Ginger's Island", and features Ginger, Mary Beth, Gideon, the Captain, the Doctor and Mr. and Mrs. Powell. I'm pretty sure it's not available at Blockbuster. And I must warn you, if you only watch one movie of this, um, genre in your life, it's really not worth it to make it this one. > Lori, wondering how much more trouble she just caused in k@'s mind... k@ Still.Not.Going.There.Thankyouverymuch. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 1998 05:48:41 GMT From: kazmar100@aol.com (Kazmar100) Subject: Re: Starbucks >And WHAT exactly is wrong with being within "arms length" of Detroit? > who are we kidding...we know detroit isn't exactly the "nicest" neighborhood in town... Kevin - -------------------------------------------------------- "For all those living on earth, I WILL DESTROY YOU!" -- Paladin Cecil of Final Fantasy II - -------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 1998 05:41:32 GMT From: shweiss17@aol.com (SHWeiss17) Subject: Re: [Re: Holiday Music] >this morning I woke up to a kickin' "Carol of the Bells" involving synths and >electric guitar (I don't think it was Manheim Steamroller, tho). You're right, its The Trans-Siberian Orchestra. Man, talk about great Christmas CD's.... - - Sue * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "Nothing really matters like you think it does anyway" - Francis Dunnery ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:54:53 GMT From: nicole.the.wonder.nerd.is@ana.ng.at.tmbg.org (Nicole the Wonder Nerd) Subject: Re: Murray sings (was Fruvous Dreams) On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 04:58:26 GMT, someone looking suspiciously like Srm9988n@aol.com whispered these words: > After all, I AM the little murrmaid. :) ) I haven't said this yet, so I will now: This is the coolest, cleverest FrüTitle I've heard. - --nicole twn yes, I WILL get back to studying! I swear! - -- "It's up to you now if you sink or swim--just keep the faith that your ship will come in!"--Great Big Sea Visit Nicolopolis! http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~carlsonn Reply-to address is modified to escape the spammers... sorry for the inconvenience. spam trap: postmaster@localhost admin@localhost abuse@localhost root@localhost ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:42:25 GMT From: nicole.the.wonder.nerd.is@ana.ng.at.tmbg.org (Nicole the Wonder Nerd) Subject: Re: Happy Rushmas On 18 Dec 1998 02:41:10 GMT, someone looking suspiciously like lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD) whispered these words: >In article <75b68a$etg$1@clarknet.clark.net>, Ambush wrote: >>(Well, if Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ, wouldn't Rushmas, >>celebrate the birth of Rush?) >Well, Michaelmas isn't Mike Ford's B'day, so I guess it can mean just a day >when you feel groovy about someone. To be linguistic about it, Olde Frenche >"Christ messe" meant simply the day of the Catholic Mass celebrated in honor of >Christ. The notion that it's his birthday came later. This is true. I read an excellent argument somewhere (one of the urban legend debunking pages, I think) on why Christmas was NOT Jesus' birthday. The clincher, I think, was the part in the Bible about "shepherds watching their flocks by night", which only happens during the lambing season (the rest of the time, they were kept locked up in a corral somewhere at night). Let me research it and post the URL when I have time (read: after my Materials Science final tomorrow). - --nicole twn - -- "It's up to you now if you sink or swim--just keep the faith that your ship will come in!"--Great Big Sea Visit Nicolopolis! http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~carlsonn Reply-to address is modified to escape the spammers... sorry for the inconvenience. spam trap: postmaster@localhost admin@localhost abuse@localhost root@localhost ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:51:08 GMT From: nicole.the.wonder.nerd.is@ana.ng.at.tmbg.org (Nicole the Wonder Nerd) Subject: Re: Tripping over my Soapbox (Gulf War Song II) On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:42:43 -0600, someone looking suspiciously like Jake O'Rama whispered these words: >> France would be pissed regardless of what we did. >No shit! (pardon my French - pun intended). They're still pissed because >our bastardized version of English infiltrated their language. Nah, that's just the French govt. and a bunch of uptight older people. I think they're still trying to get words like "weekend" and "hamburger" out of the language. They are NOT going to succeed. I can sorta see their point (heritage, pride arising from knowing how to conjugate 17 tenses, etc.), but I can't help thinking that, for better or worse, that this is how languages evolve. (Lest I get accused of ethnocentrism, let me point out that there's also a LOT of French in English; this evolution thing is a two-way (multi-way?) street.) Maybe someday we'll all speak Terran. Wouldn't that be cool? - --nicole the global citizen off to study, ho ho. - -- "It's up to you now if you sink or swim--just keep the faith that your ship will come in!"--Great Big Sea Visit Nicolopolis! http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~carlsonn Reply-to address is modified to escape the spammers... sorry for the inconvenience. spam trap: postmaster@localhost admin@localhost abuse@localhost root@localhost ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 1998 08:19:19 GMT From: krazy924@aol.com (Krazy924) Subject: new to the group hi all! I just recently learned about Moxy and now I have 3 cds. My first cd was Live Noise and that hasn't been outta my cd player since I got it. I also have Bargainville and the B album, I love them as well. Hopefully I will get to see them sometime, because their live cd cracks me up with their improvs and antics. :) - -->>Kristin<<-- A "jiffy" is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:16:16 GMT From: petit_chou@juno.com Subject: Re: Murray sings (was Fruvous Dreams) Lori presents THE most tantalizing prospect to date: >He can wear a kilt Sigh. A girl can dream. Heather Moore (with visions of Murray's gams dancing in her head) ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:16:15 GMT From: petit_chou@juno.com Subject: Re: Happy Rushmas Steve sez: >My personal preference is Dec. 21, the shortest day of they year. It's >dark a >lot and cold. Hee hee hee! But do we really wanna insult the Solstice Observers by foisting Rush on them? *shudder* Heather Moore ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:16:16 GMT From: petit_chou@juno.com Subject: Re: Murray Sings (was Fruvous Dreams) Fruchild sez: >Another Harry Connick Jr. fan!!! Oh yes yes yes. Speaking of which (and weirdly tying in another thread), does anyone else have Harry's Christmas Album? It's a goodie. Some of my favourite stuff comes off of that one - granted, some of it's pretty schmaltzy, but there's a GREAT track called "I pray on Christmas" that rocks my casbah. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:16:15 GMT From: petit_chou@juno.com Subject: Ro(/u)sh Hashanah Someone asked (I think it was Lori) what Rosh Hashanah was...or maybe she asked what RUSH Hashanah was, and I'm just randomly spewing knowledge. Anyway. Rosh Hashanah - It is basically the Jewish New Year. It's right after Yom Kippur in the fall. So, you know, I always thought it was funny in the Greatest Man how they say that there's Rushmas (celebration of birth of saviour) and Rush Hashanah (New Year). How are those equal? I guess there's really no Jewish equivalent for Christmas, but the Fruvous comparison always struck me as amusing. Heather Moore ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:29:41 GMT From: vika@ibm.net (Vika Zafrin) Subject: Re: Tripping over my Soapbox (Gulf War Song II) Chad Schrock delighted us with: >I was watching the BBC World News last night and they had a >report from Moscow about this. Basically, the Foriegn Ministry >"regretted that we launched airstrikes." I know shamefully little about Russia's foreign relations with the Middle East and Asia; however, as far as I've heard, this "regretting" comes mostly from economic reasons -- apparently, Iraq owes Russia a lot of oil, which it could use. >However, there was >great gnashing of teeth over the fact that their (Russia's) >opinion didn't matter anymore. Their own freakin' fault for not having enough backbone to stand up to Yeltzin who just does NOT know WHEN to say WHEN!! *ahem* Sorry. - -v, Russian Vika Zafrin vika@ibm.net "The wonderful thing about Shakespeare is that when it's done well, it makes people feel smarter than they are. As opposed to dumber than they are. There is really no in-between." - Spencer Golub ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:17:57 GMT From: vika@ibm.net (Vika Zafrin) Subject: Re: Gulf War - Part II Thomas Fazzio delighted us with: >Imagine sitting around YOUR dinner table, in YOUR house, in YOUR neighborhood, >with YOUR family. *frown* Funny you should mention that. Imagine sitting around your dinner table, in your house in the States, knowing that your 80+ year old grandparents just HAPPEN to live in the center of a city in which a civil war is going on. And you know that they're shooting right outside their windows, and that you can do absolutely nothing. That said, I think that the below: >Unknown to you or any of those you love around that table, a >missile is being dropped because of some politicians sitting around having an >ego-war. is not quite as simple as you make it sound. I try to avoid personalizing actions like this. No one person, however powerful he/she may seem, is ever completely responsible for any one decision. Think of all the rulers we know about in history who've been merely tokens of power. Don't have to go far: what about That Woman on Canadian Money? I don't believe it's an ego war. At least, not entirely. There is a lot of fear of what Saddam might do. Of course, there's also a lot of patting ourselves on the back for "not having used WMD" (HAH! There's a joke!!), as well. But nothing is one-sided. Vika Zafrin vika@ibm.net "The wonderful thing about Shakespeare is that when it's done well, it makes people feel smarter than they are. As opposed to dumber than they are. There is really no in-between." - Spencer Golub ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 03:39:24 -0500 From: Thomas Fazzio Subject: Re: Happy Rushmas (also politics, gulf war and square one) petit_chou@juno.com wrote: > Steve sez: > >My personal preference is Dec. 21, the shortest day of they year. It's > >dark a > >lot and cold. > > Hee hee hee! But do we really wanna insult the Solstice Observers by > foisting Rush on them? *shudder* Okay, since it seems the Grand 'Ole Party is subject to more bashing on our meat-eating talking head, I'm going to make a stand and say this: At least Bill Clinton is a Democrat! Hehehe, that was fun... but really in all honesty, I really don't prefer either of those two people or *most* politicians in general. I draw the line as a human being, a brother, a son, and grandson that for NO reason should a living person give up such a precious life because two groups of people couldn't settle an issue. Here's my plan for solving world issues: base the choice of the 'winner' not on strength of weapons, but on strength of mind. Using developing technologies (underground research), we turn the two opponents into characters on the MathMan game on Square One. Then we'll see who comes out on top fair and 'square'! =) later, tom. (for the record, how did I go from joking around to being serious, then straight to insanity?) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 03:51:35 -0500 From: Thomas Fazzio Subject: Re: Gulf War - Part II Vika Zafrin wrote: > Thomas Fazzio delighted us with: > > >Imagine sitting around YOUR dinner table, in YOUR house, in YOUR neighborhood, > >with YOUR family. > > *frown* Funny you should mention that. > > Imagine sitting around your dinner table, in your house in the States, > knowing that your 80+ year old grandparents just HAPPEN to live in the > center of a city in which a civil war is going on. And you know that > they're shooting right outside their windows, and that you can do > absolutely nothing. > I am truly sorry for you and your family. My thoughts and prayers are with you in hopes that everyone involved will be safe to the best possible extent. > > That said, I think that the below: > > >Unknown to you or any of those you love around that table, a > >missile is being dropped because of some politicians sitting around having an > >ego-war. > > is not quite as simple as you make it sound. I try to avoid > personalizing actions like this. No one person, however powerful > he/she may seem, is ever completely responsible for any one decision. > I know you weren't trying to hasten my argument, but I need to clarify myself upon re-reading the message. 'Some politicians' was used in place of governments, thus the governments of warring countries. Granted 'ego-war' probably was *the* worst phrasing, does it really boil down to anything else? If the winner of a 'war' was based on a tic-tac-toe game instead of the position and surprise of armies, do you *really* think it could stop there? I can all but promise you that in the end, instincts bring us to violence to solve issues. later, tom. [I've left the remainder of Vika's post for the pleasure of our other (news)groupies] > Think of all the rulers we know about in history who've been merely > tokens of power. Don't have to go far: what about That Woman on > Canadian Money? > > I don't believe it's an ego war. At least, not entirely. There is a > lot of fear of what Saddam might do. Of course, there's also a lot of > patting ourselves on the back for "not having used WMD" (HAH! There's > a joke!!), as well. But nothing is one-sided. > > Vika Zafrin > vika@ibm.net > > "The wonderful thing about Shakespeare is that when it's done well, > it makes people feel smarter than they are. As opposed to dumber > than they are. There is really no in-between." - Spencer Golub ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:27:04 +0000 From: Richard Butterworth Subject: Re: Gulf War - Part II Okay, I thought I'd just pop in and bore you all rigid with my thoughts on the Gulf. I find it terribly sad. When you have to raise your voice in an argument then you've failed to communicate. When you have to start dropping bombs on cities then you've *seriously* failed to communicate. On the other side of the coin when you insight someone to drop bombs on your cities then you've seriously failed to communicate too. No-one has the right to the high moral ground in this. Not the American government, not the British government, not the Iraqi government. They've all failed. And because I had a hand in electing one of those governments then that failure is mine too. I am not interested in who is more or less responsible for the failures that cause war. The only way to stop a war is for all participants to take a deep breath, stop blaming each other for what each other has done in the the past and start acting responsibly about the future. That last sentence was very easy for me to type, but it is rather more difficult to make happen. I have no more idea about how to *actually* stop a war than anyone else. I feel impotent. The only people who *are* less responsible for the war are the poor sods who have missiles raining down on them. The Iraqis have suffered terribly in the past 20 years, and we all take the blame for this. The western allies killed 200,000 Iraqis in the gulf war, mostly conscripts, and to me conscripts equals civillians. I may have my facts wrong, but I think the allies have killed more Iraqis than Saddam's squalid attempts at genocide have. The west sold Iraq the technology to build weapons of mass murder in the first place. It is hypocritical to jump on the moral high ground and cry foul when the third world country you've sold weapons to look as though they may start actually using them. That said Saddam Hussein is, of course, a miserable tyrant and has no right to be in power. The Iraqi National Congress are an opposition group committed to overthrowing Saddam and replacing his regime by a democratically elected government. The west has recently started to support them and this must be a good thing. Better late than never. Its good to see that many of the posters here have dealt with the human side of the war, this has been pathetically missing in the British media reports. Lets show some exciting shots of planes taking off and explosions on the skyline. Human life is more important than politics. `We should care for each other more than we care for ideas.' I'd just like to make a couple of specific points though... The republican reposnse to this has been pathetic. A war is more important than impeachment proceedings. The US congress seems to have got its head stuck up its own backside. The republican obssession with the Monica Lewinsky affair not only brings them into disrepute, but it makes the whole American system look utterly farcical and trivial to outside observers. Cough. Like me, for example. US citizens deserve better. (At least the ones I've met do.) Secondly, and this one really has got me fuming and throwing my footware at the radio, the Ramadan argument. What sort of *pathetic* argument is it when you say you're going to respect people by stopping raining bombs on them during their religious festival? If someone decided to kill me with a missile, I wouldn't have greater respect for their sensitivity because they chose not to do it on my birthday. There, and I managed to get through that without swearing once. :) Tinkerty tonk Richard - ------------------------------------------------------ `I was a rose in April and still a rose in June, I fear that come the winter I shall no longer bloom.' Kate Rusby - ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:42:31 +0000 From: Richard Butterworth Subject: Re: Tripping over my Soapbox (Gulf War Song II) Angie Armstrong wrote: > ...some very moving words... > Is it possible to be ashamed and yet fiercely proud at the same time? Most certainly. Over here we call it `being English.' :) Tinkerty tonk Richard - ------------------------------------------------------ `I was a rose in April and still a rose in June, I fear that come the winter I shall no longer bloom.' Kate Rusby - ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 1998 12:11:33 GMT From: fruwench@aol.com (FruWench) Subject: Re: Holiday music Ok, I'm fightened. I am currently listening to "Donde esta Santa Claus" on the radio. I forget who posted the origional comment and what it was, but it is a fun song. Ole. And stop messing with my radio. ladywench FruSpace - We came, we saw, we slept on the floor . . . "For we can still love the world, who find a famished kitten on the step and know recesses for it from the fury of the street" - Hart Crane "Chaplinesque" ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 1998 12:06:43 GMT From: fruwench@aol.com (FruWench) Subject: Re: Gulf War - Part II *smile* ANY war/bombing is far from everyday. (And its anpout time our media were afraid of something.) I know reporting a war is dangerous, and I do appreciate the information. If only they would report the basic facts and leave the speculation to the reader/observer/listener. ladywench FruSpace - We came, we saw, we slept on the floor . . . "For we can still love the world, who find a famished kitten on the step and know recesses for it from the fury of the street" - Hart Crane "Chaplinesque" ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 1998 12:13:53 GMT From: fruwench@aol.com (FruWench) Subject: Re: Happy Rushmas >Steve sez: >>My personal preference is Dec. 21, the shortest day of they year. It's >>dark a >>lot and cold. > >Hee hee hee! But do we really wanna insult the Solstice Observers by >foisting Rush on them? Please don't. Although, a lot can happen on that long dark night . . . "Hey! Anybody seen Rush lately? He was right here a minute ago?" "I think ladywench tied him to a chair and is playing Moxy Fruvous at him." "Oh. Well, that's alright then." ladywench ladywench FruSpace - We came, we saw, we slept on the floor . . . "For we can still love the world, who find a famished kitten on the step and know recesses for it from the fury of the street" - Hart Crane "Chaplinesque" ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 1998 12:19:03 GMT From: fruwench@aol.com (FruWench) Subject: Re: new to the group Welcome!! Whee, I get to the the first one on the welcome wagon!!! Isn't Live Noise great!!! Wasn't out of my player for a month, and then it was replaced with Bargainville. Pick up Wood and You Will Go To The Moon when you get a chance. You'll love all of them. And check out the web site at www.fruvous.com for tour dates. Where are you? If you don't mind my asking. You absolutly MUST see them live, nothing compares to a live Moxy Fruvous performance. Except maybe 2 live Moxy Fruvous performances . . .or six . . . ladywench FruSpace - We came, we saw, we slept on the floor . . . "For we can still love the world, who find a famished kitten on the step and know recesses for it from the fury of the street" - Hart Crane "Chaplinesque" ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 1998 12:04:21 GMT From: fruwench@aol.com (FruWench) Subject: Re: Murray sings (was Fruvous Dreams) >someone looking suspiciously like >Srm9988n@aol.com whispered these words: >> After all, I AM the little murrmaid. :) ) > >I haven't said this yet, so I will now: This is the coolest, >cleverest FrüTitle I've heard. > >--nicole twn Ah, but is she curling? ladywench FruSpace - We came, we saw, we slept on the floor . . . "For we can still love the world, who find a famished kitten on the step and know recesses for it from the fury of the street" - Hart Crane "Chaplinesque" ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 1998 12:42:00 GMT From: lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD) Subject: Re: Tripping over my Soapbox (Gulf War Song II) In article , Jake wrote: >assassinating >the leader of a foreign country tends to make other foreign leaders a bit >nervous. And that's not always a good thing. Not to mention it's specifically prohibited to the US government. Other governments have their own rules. Regards, Steve ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V2 #136 ********************************************