From: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org (alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest) To: ammf-digest@smoe.org Subject: alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V2 #79 Reply-To: ammf@fruvous.com Sender: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ammf-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest Thursday, December 3 1998 Volume 02 : Number 079 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Feeling Old ["KatieWow" ] Re: Belief is not necessarily by some book ["KatieWow" ] Re: Greeting from Scotland [shazalinrea@juno.com (Mindy J Munson)] Re: Feeling Old [Eve Lauria ] Re: Ithaca Set List [Chad Maloney ] Free Bird ["A.J. LoCicero" ] Re: who'd have thunk it? [Ambush Bug ] Re: More Important Stuff (i.e. Hockey) ["A.J. LoCicero" ] Re: Feeling Old [michael@janus.oit.umass.edu (Michael Kieras)] Re: Feeling Old [Eve Lauria ] Re: Feeling Old & Other Ramblings ["amy" ] Re: Bottom Line All Ages [kpfruhead@aol.com (KPFruhead)] Re: Free Bird [lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD)] Re: Clinton tonight/New songs [Mulder4213@aol.com] Re: Bottom Line All Ages [Chad Maloney ] Re: More Important Stuff (i.e. Hockey) [Chad Maloney ] Re: R E S P E C T. Find out what it means to me. [lesystemed@aol.com (LeS] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:26:00 -0500 From: "KatieWow" Subject: Re: Feeling Old weel, i wouldn't be _so_ sure. the separationists are in power again. we might be seeing a lot more pomp and circumstance concering the secession (sp?) in the coming months. whatever. i am, however, continually amazed that no american state has tried to secede since the early nineteenth century, seeing as how statehood seems to be a bit of a sketchy concept around here at times. ~~kate ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:36:16 -0500 From: "KatieWow" Subject: Re: Belief is not necessarily by some book well, thanks melanie :). every now and then i come down with verbal diarrhea and this was the result. at any rate, i'm glad you appreciated it :). ~~kate ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:39:13 -0500 From: "KatieWow" Subject: Re: Bottom Line All Ages thanks jude! now, on to bigger and better things, like how i'm going to get around that pesky, over-21 business to attend the 10:30 show i have tickets for. well, at least i'll be with my parents which might help :). ~~kate ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:53:28 GMT From: shazalinrea@juno.com (Mindy J Munson) Subject: Re: Greeting from Scotland > >Can I take it from that that Scots films such as Trainspotting and >Braveheart >are never far from your video player? ;-) Funny thing about >Braveheart was >that they had the Battle of Stirling Bridge without a bridge in sight! > Now, >I can testify that there is indeed a bridge there so it just goes to >show >that, erm, er, it was filmed in Ireland! > >Ross Brave heart!!! So good! It is one of my favorite movies and definitly my favorite "war movie". Sad thing though... Never seen Trainspotting =.+( (insert remarks about my sanity here) Mindy ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:43:55 GMT From: Eve Lauria Subject: Re: Feeling Old Irene (tee hee) says- > "Old" age is a funny thing, eh? I think I first started feeling old at > the age of 20. Something about leaving them there teenage years > behind... Before 20, I simply thought of myself as "mature" with > everything left to do and all the time in the world in which to do it. > Now, as I plummet toward the quarter century mark, I feel immature yet > aging with everything left to do but no time in which to do it. I just turned 21 over the summer and it's not so much being 21 that makes me feel old, it's the fact that I graduate college in a semester. 1999 once seemed like an unattainable peak and now it's almost here. And I've started dealing with the fact that what I've been for the past 17 years, a student, will no longer be my primary identification. It'll be weird. Just thought I'd share. Eve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:22:43 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: Ithaca Set List koogle@clark.net wrote: > chad Schrock wrote: > > Does anyone else get the feeling that this will be on the > > next album? (Especially after reading Dan's review....) > > Well, when I suggested it might, that suggestion was met with a chorus of Oh > nos. A lot of people seemed to think it wouldn't translate, but I think it > might actually gain some power, once they get the instrumentation is worked > out. I used to be heavy into the "not on the next album" group. But now I don't know. I mean, when it was Fordy singing his heart out with his acoustic, it didn't fit my idea of Fruvous. Not that there isn't precident for things like Lee . Maybe Follow the Road and If Only You Knew will make it to the next album as Lee-style tunes. Love Set Fire was Murray's Lee. Lee was Dave's Lee. Maybe Ji and Mike are next? If they take the time to make it into a Fruvous song, then I'd more than love to see it on an album. Of course if it gets left as Mike and his guitar, I'd also love to see it on an album, just not a Fruvous album. More of a Mike album *grin* - Chad ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 21:31:58 GMT From: "A.J. LoCicero" Subject: Free Bird Alright I canna stand it no more! What the HELL is Free Bird? A.J. (who is too old or dumb or something to play here obviously) - -- Epitaph on a dead blues singer's gravestone: "I didn't wake up this morning . . ." _____ _ / ____(_) | | _ ___ ___ _ __ ___ | | | |/ __/ _ \ '__/ _ \ | |____| | (_| __/ | | (_) | \_____|_|\___\___|_| \___/ @wwnet.com ICQ#: 13117113 ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1998 21:07:35 GMT From: Ambush Bug Subject: Re: who'd have thunk it? Remember when Pooh8909@aol.com said: : My car (a 87 Ford Escort that is slowly dying on me) has the world's worst : sound system. It gets louder and softer when you go over bumps and soesn't : quite get a lot of radio stations. It also eats tapes. All of them, mind : you, BUT my Früvous stuff!!! Finally, a machine with taste as great as all of : us!!! Who'd have thunk it? I have to agree with your car. [Until I got my car CD player] I would listen to my Fruvous tapes over and over again. They were my favorites... ...but I wouldn't want to eat them. AB - -- "This tattoo won't come off. I thought it was the lick 'em/stick 'em kind. But I couldn't figure out what that machine was for. Or why I was in so much pain." -- Mary Prankseter Try Koplio's Story! Get it at http://www.aliensoft.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 21:32:03 GMT From: "A.J. LoCicero" Subject: Re: More Important Stuff (i.e. Hockey) Chad Maloney wrote: > Go ahead, mention the Red Wings to Fordy and get a rousing F**k you out of > him *grin* > > Fruvous Hockey moment for you all: > > The place was Lee's Palace at last years F&F4C. Canada has failed to get > into the medal contention for Olympic Hockey, so the lads were right on > time for the show. They were thanking everyone for coming and not watching > the gold medal hockey game. > > For some reason they were talking about the best hockey team. I think Ji > brought it up and the crowd cheered, assuming he meant Canada's team, right? > So he says "Yeah, Czech republic" and goes off to talk about how the > two "best" teams are playing for the gold medal. > > Mike then retorts: "Everyone knows the best hockey team in > the world. Yes. The internationally made up Detroit Red Wings" > > The crowd cheers and Fordy responds with a couple rounds of > "F**k you. And you. And you"... I remember that moment Chad (does help to have the tape doesn't it?) :) But are you sure that is what he meant? I've always understood him to be a HUGE wings fan. Am I on something? A.J. - -- Epitaph on a dead blues singer's gravestone: "I didn't wake up this morning . . ." _____ _ / ____(_) | | _ ___ ___ _ __ ___ | | | |/ __/ _ \ '__/ _ \ | |____| | (_| __/ | | (_) | \_____|_|\___\___|_| \___/ @wwnet.com ICQ#: 13117113 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 21:11:37 GMT From: Eve Lauria Subject: Re: Stand and be counted Hi, all, I actually sent a private email to Melanie on this subject, but I feel the need to add to these answers, because it is a topic near and dear to my heart (sorry for the bad cliche). I should warn you, though, that my interest is Christianity is more scholarly than faith-oriented, so please no one get offended by what I say. Just so you know, this is really long, so you don't have to read it all. :) > Melanie asked: > : > My personal opinion: I can't figure out how Christianity ever got allied > : > with restricting personal freedom in the first place. > > and AJ replied with a very good point: > : I suspect it happened sometime after Christianity became the state religion > : of Rome. From Fiona: > I tend to put a lot of the blame on Paul, who did a lot of the initial > preaching in areas like Rome. (Has anyone read La symphonie pastorale? I ... > He was misogynistic, > homophobic, (quite possibly a repressed homosexual, according to some > scholars) and advocated a life entirely devoted to the spirit, including, > in some passages, the mortification of the flesh. The > founding of celibate religious orders can be traced back to this man, who > was so afraid of sex he advocated no sex even within marriage. > I don't disagree with all the man had to say or do, he was a kinder > missionary than many after hime, but he had some > serious issues and his very human interpretation of Christ's word, which > he was never actually present to hear) did a lot of harm, the effects of > which are still around today. I've taken a couple of classes in early Christianity, and I'm in the midst of one at the moment, which is why this thread caught my eye, for this is actually a topic that has been discussed at length is my class recently. One of the first things we need to remember is that the Bible was not written for the edification of people in 1998. It was written in order to keep a record of what happened (including different people's accounts) as well as to address specific problems that were occuring at the time everything was being written (and this is anywhere between 80CE to 140CE, at least as is in the canonical NT). That said, it is generally accepted by scholars that only some of the letters attributed to Paul were actually written by Paul himself. The ones Paul wrote are the ones that advocate celibacy. This was because Paul believed that the end was coming within his lifetime and he wanted his followers to be pure as possible for the Kingdom of Heaven. By the later writings (attributed to Paul like the Timothy letters), people were coming to terms with the idea that the end was not imminent and started telling people to get married and have children because they wanted the church to continue. It seems that it became restricting of personal freedom (which was not really a concept back then anyway) when the church fathers realized that their followers would have to conform to some Roman standard of decency in order to live in the Roman empire. This includes slaves being obedient to their masters, women not teaching or prophesying, and advocation of a hierarchical social order with bishops, deacons, etc. There is also some speculation that the pseudepigraphic letters (attributed to Paul but not his own) were written to counteract some legends about Paul that people thought were getting out of hand, like Paul advocating celibacy for women, and women teaching, and egalitarian social orders. Just so you know, celibacy for women is actually considered freeing because if they took it up they did not have to deal with repressive marriages or having to bear children, and many women seem to have taken it up voluntarily. In fact, some of what is in Timothy (or Titus, maybe both) is against young women joining the order of "widows" who were a celibate group and supposed to be older women whose husbands had died. Some younger women were joining, however, and the church fathers were worried that they would break their vow of celibacy or that they would not bear children at all. No children=no church. Ok, I'll stop now. Just so you know...I'm talking about women because the class I'm in is about women in ancient mediterranean religions. Eve ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1998 16:48:13 -0500 From: michael@janus.oit.umass.edu (Michael Kieras) Subject: Re: Feeling Old Kelly MacDougal (puggles@mindspring.com) wrote: : >BTW, I have no idea who Freerick Austerlitz is. : : Sorry about the typo it's Frederick and his more well known stage : name is Fread Astaire. Ah, gotcha. : As for the feeling old it only really seems to happen around : highschool and college age persons. Give me a toddler ore grade : schooler and I'm so there for you. I bet a 10 year old once that I : could sing all the songs and repeat most of the dialog from 'The : Little Mermaid' - I won. I'm a big kid. We own over 200 stuffed toys : and have more toys than a family with 3 kids - we have none (no room). Well, lately I've been on a "I own waaay too much crap; I have to get rid of it" kick, so most of my "kid stuff" is on its way out. Not all of it, though; I'm remembering Ray Bradbury giving a talk here at UMass where he was remorseful about getting rid of all of his clipped newspaper Buck Rogers comic strips at the urging of others. He felt he'd thrown out his dreams. : Someone mentioned that seeing the neices and nephews get married made : them feel old. It get's worse wait til they have their own kids! Two : girls I used to baby sit when I was in High School have kids the : oldest is 8! Ick Ick Ick Ick Ick Ick Ick! It's funny, but from around 26-29 I felt really old, and dreaded hitting 30. When I hit 30 it wasn't so bad, and I've been feeling younger ever since. - -- Michael Kieras ------------------------------------------------- michael@oit.umass.edu http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~michael/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:21:24 GMT From: Eve Lauria Subject: Re: Feeling Old I've been posting a lot lately...I think it's because finals are coming up and I'm finding new and better ways to procrastinate. I even posted already about feeling old. Anyway, it makes me wonder why we are so afraid of feeling/getting/being old. Perhaps it's because we think in this society that the high school and collge years (and not even for some people) are the best years of our lives. Well, I can say that high school was certainly not the best time of my life and I don't think it was for many people. College, perhaps, but if it's all downhill from college that's pretty sad. Or maybe it's because we don't want to get old and ugly. Well, I can answer that with two points. a)young does not equal beautiful...it's only societal that we think so. b)there is no letter b...I thought there was but I can't think of it. Moving on. Um, getting old and set in our ways? That doesn't have to happen unless we let it. I think a lot of people are afraid of stagnation, but I'm sure as hell not going to let it happen to me. Ok, and perhaps we're afraid of getting to be not cool anymore. I'll admit that I feel a bit dated when I think about how teenagers dress and do their hair nowadays...it's a lot cooler now. And I'm not that old. When I was in middle school, all the girls were into the satellite dish bangs look - I can see you out there nodding and chuckling with embarrassment. Anyway, just a thought on why we are afraid of getting old. Oh, in some countries, the people look forward to getting old and try to get old faster. This is because old people do not have to work as hard and are revered and respected and taken care of. Finally, we are afraid of getting old because of death. Well, death can happen anytime, and frankly when really old people die they are often ready for it and welcome it. There, now you have my 2 cents (or whatever price you wish to put on such priceless insight...hee hee) Eve > Kelly MacDougal (puggles@mindspring.com) wrote: > : >BTW, I have no idea who Freerick Austerlitz is. > : > : Sorry about the typo it's Frederick and his more well known stage > : name is Fread Astaire. > > Ah, gotcha. > > : As for the feeling old it only really seems to happen around > : highschool and college age persons. Give me a toddler ore grade > : schooler and I'm so there for you. I bet a 10 year old once that I > : could sing all the songs and repeat most of the dialog from 'The > : Little Mermaid' - I won. I'm a big kid. We own over 200 stuffed toys > : and have more toys than a family with 3 kids - we have none (no room). > > Well, lately I've been on a "I own waaay too much crap; I have to get > rid of it" kick, so most of my "kid stuff" is on its way out. Not all > of it, though; I'm remembering Ray Bradbury giving a talk here at UMass > where he was remorseful about getting rid of all of his clipped newspaper > Buck Rogers comic strips at the urging of others. He felt he'd thrown > out his dreams. > > : Someone mentioned that seeing the neices and nephews get married made > : them feel old. It get's worse wait til they have their own kids! Two > : girls I used to baby sit when I was in High School have kids the > : oldest is 8! Ick Ick Ick Ick Ick Ick Ick! > > It's funny, but from around 26-29 I felt really old, and dreaded > hitting 30. When I hit 30 it wasn't so bad, and I've been feeling > younger ever since. > > -- Michael Kieras ------------------------------------------------- > michael@oit.umass.edu http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~michael/ > ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1998 22:25:59 GMT From: "amy" Subject: Re: Feeling Old & Other Ramblings Couldn't resist the urge to chime in on this age thing -- it was one of the first things I noticed about the ng/fruhead crew, actually. I mean that I felt as if my actual age (33) was a higher number than most. As opposed to my mental age, which is quite a bit lower! Another fabulous singing group, Sapphire (the Uppity Blues Women), sang it best, in a song called "Middle-Age Blues Boogie" -- "age ain't nothin' but a numbah!" (They also sang, "I need a young young man, to drive away my middle-age blues." My kinda women!) And _then_ I realized that some of the Fruvous guys are older than I am, and I actually had a brief conversation with Mike about that the one time I met him -- it was quite comforting. (Yes, I'm sure the guys would be thrilled to death with this logic!) Plus, in addition to the fact that I _feel_ about 15 most of the time, I look younger than I am/still get carded a lot. And since age doesn't make much of a difference around here anyway, I feel that if I could ever unchain myself from my workplace long enough to get out to a show and meet some of you folks, I'd find a place to fit in (because we all do, that's the beauty of this crowd!) And now that I've started to _sound_ like senility is right around the corner, I'll stop rambling and return you to your regularly scheduled programming. - -- amy (doddering off in search of Geritol) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------- "A handful of patience is worth more than a bushel of brains." (best advice I ever got out of a fortune cookie) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----------------------- Dmandeluxe wrote in article <19981203144824.13880.00002079@ng111.aol.com>... > Oooo gosh! Yeah, I've been feeling old. Not so much at the shows, but > certainly around the newsgroup. Three years ago, I used to post a couple > tidbits a week; I think this is the first time I've posted anything in six > months.... > > But old or whatever (36, it's so friggin' relative), I'm just thrilled to > pieces that the lads have been garnering such a large following. Almost two > years ago, there was a thread about whether these guys would ever have a hit > record. The general consensus was "no," mainly because we all thougt that > mainstream America (I can't vouch for Canada) would never "get it;" that the > entire package of Moxy Früvous was a little over the country's head. (We CAN be > a snooty bunch, ya know....) > > Well, two years later, I really believe these will have a hit single within > the next two years. One, because their type of music & schtick IS coming more > into the American mainstream, and Two, because their new songs are a little > more geared toward pop. Tracks like "Sad Girl" are much more radio friendly > than any of their previous material. > > But so far as this 'feeling old' business goes, it's not all THAT bad. The > reason someone like me feels "old" is because most of the other "old" folks > have a boatload of responsibility. My fellow 30something friends who are > married w/kids tell me that I don't know how good I've got it right now. > They'd love to go to a Früvous show or ANY show for that matter, but between > work & family, there's no time. Jeez, I feel like a grandparent at the discos > & dance clubs, now. All ravers & rollers wonder what the hippie is doing in > their club. At the FrüShows, I just feel like an uncle.... who hasn't gotten > a hair cut in a while. > > Mikey > > > ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 1998 22:50:59 GMT From: kpfruhead@aol.com (KPFruhead) Subject: Re: Bottom Line All Ages >now, on to bigger and better things, like how i'm going to get >around that pesky, over-21 business to attend the 10:30 show i have tickets >for. well, at least i'll be with my parents which might help :) Going with parents? Thats all you need to get into the BL! I've been going there for several years already, and I'm only 16! Ken ------------------------------ Date: 03 Dec 1998 22:43:47 GMT From: lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD) Subject: Re: Free Bird In article <366701BA.6B6CDB46@wwnet.com>, "A.J. wrote: >What the HELL is Free Bird? > It's an anthem by Lynnyrd Skynnyrd. It's one of their lighter songs (not as in lite, but as in all the smokers in the audience would hold up their cigarette lighters). It's on their live album, and is the poster song for yelling out requests. Before Skynnyrd launch into the song, one of them says, "What is it you want to hear". An unintelligible roar as I recall) follows, which turns out to be "Free Bird". Regards, Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:05:52 GMT From: Mulder4213@aol.com Subject: Re: Clinton tonight/New songs Sadly, I won't be at the show tonight. For the second time in one week, my ride to a fruvous show fell through. I know I don't have to tell you how upsetting this is!! I want to hear the new songs!! I have one tiny request, though. If any of you do go, and you hear of a recording of the show, could you let me know a way to get my hands on it? The show's in a little more than 2 hours, so I've pretty much given up on going, but I'd at least like to be able to *hear* it. I don't have anything to trade, and I know that's a big no-no, but it's the truth. I'd be eternally indebted to whomever could help me out. Thanks a million!! dan, sans fruvous and broken hearted in ilion, ny(only 30-45 minutes from the show!! ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 16:42:47 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: Bottom Line All Ages KatieWow wrote: > > thanks jude! now, on to bigger and better things, like how i'm going to get > around that pesky, over-21 business to attend the 10:30 show i have tickets > for. well, at least i'll be with my parents which might help :). I've heard that the Bottom Line is pretty good about it if you are attenting with your parents. I'd highly recommend calling the venue and asking, making sure to point out you are going with your parent. Hopefully it won't be as hard to get in as you may think... - Chad ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 16:41:00 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: More Important Stuff (i.e. Hockey) "A.J. LoCicero" wrote: > But are you sure that is what he meant? I've always understood him to be a > HUGE wings fan. Am I on something? I always pinned Mike as a Canadiens fan, but I don't know why for sure. It's just filed away with all the other various Fru-tidbits in my head... If that isn't what he meant at the Lee's show, I don't what he did mean =) I took it as Mike cursing the bastard Wings fans for their lack of good judgement and taste *grin* - Chad ------------------------------ Date: 03 Dec 1998 22:43:45 GMT From: lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD) Subject: Re: Feeling Old In article <746sec$qj3$1@winter.news.rcn.net>, "KatieWow" wrote: >i am, however, continually amazed >that no american state has tried to secede since the early nineteenth >century, seeing as how statehood seems to be a bit of a sketchy concept >around here at times. An awful lot of blood and misery put paid to that notion. The precedent that the central government would fight to preserve the union is the five-hundred pound gorilla blocking the door to secession. Since the War Between the Towering Conceits, people of the US have grown more and more like each other; in the mid-nineteenth century there were practically two separate economies and cultures, and not much mobility between them. Now, similar mixes among agrarian, service, financial, and industrial bases can be found everywhere, with obvious variations. For decades now, the idea of secession has been simply absurd, because we are all much more alike than unalike, and those who are unlike are distributed throughout the country more or less. Regards, Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 17:18:42 -0500 From: Chad Maloney Subject: Re: Free Bird "A.J. LoCicero" wrote: > What the HELL is Free Bird? Well, I'd assume we are talking about Freebird, the Lynard Skynyrd song. For some reason, and I don't know at all why it is, Freebird is the example song that people always yell for at concerts no matter who is playing. I have been to a lot of concerts that audience screaming is in the lines of "Freebird! Freebird! Play some Skynard!". What infatuation these people have with Lynard Skynyrd is beyond me. Was Freebird a rock anthem for some by gone era that I just don't understand? - Chad ------------------------------ Date: 03 Dec 1998 23:52:52 GMT From: lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD) Subject: Re: R E S P E C T. Find out what it means to me. In article <746eds$55m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, wahrend@my-dejanews.com wrote: >In article <19981202232650.29940.00000548@ngol08.aol.com>, > lesystemed@aol.com (LeSystemeD) wrote: >> >> Please read this carefully and with an open mind. I mean no offense to >those >> who mean no offense to others. > >Don't really have time to post a long disertation on why I believe this >mentality is incredibly dangerous, so I'll just post some comments... > What's dangerous is giving special status to opinions just because they are religious in nature (or in form). Being afraid to criticize beliefs when the beliefs are religious is not a healthy way to be. Demagoguery begins when you give people the means to protect themselves from criticism by wrapping their ideas in religious trappings. Politicians have known this trick since the beginning of time. >> Opinions are not sacred because they are opinions. And they are certainly >not >> sacred because they are couched in religious terms. > >Who decides what is sacred and what isn't? I do. I'm stating my opinion that opinions are not sacred. >Her point was the religion >is >just another choice and that you should respect that choice, not the religion >per se. How can you respect a choice without inquiring into the substance of the choice? This is absurd. If you choose to believe that you can make nuclear reactors out of the stuffing in beanie babies, do I have to respect that choice? >Opinions may be wrong or silly indeed.. but they are not dangerous. > >I can say all day that my religion advocated puppy abuse or the elimination >of all indoor plumming, but unless I ACT ON those opinions they are just >that, opinions. Bin Laden says all day that Allah requires people to bomb US embassies. Expression is action. And ideas -- opinions -- are powerful and often dangerous. > >>No >> opinions have a right to expect respect without earning it. > >Sure I do.. this is your opinion, and I believe it is wrong. You don't >have >to respect another person's religion, just their choice in making it. You said that already. My opinion is no more sacred than yours is. >What you are advocating here is the elimination of the fringe >by popular vote. Why should I have to gain your's or anyone else's respect >should I want to pray to lego land at the Mall of America(tm)? > I don't know where you're getting this. I'm not advocating anything of the kind. I'm saying I don't respect certain choices because they are not worthy of respect. I have someone telling me I HAVE to respect choices if they are religious in nature. I do have to tolerate them, and I'd be well-advised not to needlessly criticize them if I want to continue to be invited to dinner parties, but I don't have to respect them. And you don't have to earn my respect for anything, or care about my respect for anything. I don't know where you got the idea that I was issuing religious licenses or advocating them. I AM arguing that religion of any kind should not have a privileged place among ideas and beliefs. "Because (choose supreme being or deity) told me so" may be good enough for Bin Laden, or Torquemada, but we don't need social strictures saying that I have to simply accept it and respect it without speaking up. I did ask to be read carefully. I nowhere said that any opinions or religions should be suppressed; I merely don't want to be told what I have to respect. Regards, Steve ------------------------------ End of alt.music.moxy-fruvous digest V2 #79 *******************************************