From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V3 #165 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Tuesday, June 23 1998 Volume 03 : Number 165 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Alloy: nary a spirit can be broken @ alloy! [CJMark@aol.com] Re[2]: Alloy: On a point of order [John_Hanson_at_FRMA01@ccmailgw.mcgawpa] Re: Alloy: On a point of order [Tim_Dunn@jba.co.uk] Re: Re[2]: Alloy: On a point of order [PROCAT1@aol.com] Re: Re[2]: Alloy: On a point of order [RThurF@aol.com] Re: Alloy: Book question [Tim_Dunn@jba.co.uk] Re: Re[2]: Alloy: On a point of order ["Charles E. Kemp" ] Re: : Alloy: Funding [RThurF@aol.com] Re: Alloy: Cy's salad fest ["Michael and Denise Luckey" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 01:58:25 EDT From: CJMark@aol.com Subject: Re: Alloy: nary a spirit can be broken @ alloy! Beth.. You GO Girl!! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:18:41 -0500 From: John_Hanson_at_FRMA01@ccmailgw.mcgawpark.baxter.com Subject: Re[2]: Alloy: On a point of order - --IMA.Boundary.076005898 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Hear hear !!! I've been waiting for years for someone to say that, I thought it was just me being a Philistine in not liking Opera. Bravo for the comments ! MTCBWY and your eeeeeeeeeeeeeee ! John ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Alloy: On a point of order Author: IT Admin - Govt Office North West at Internet Date: 21/06/98 01:11 At 10:38 20/06/98 EDT, Robin wrote: > > >A lot of these song lyrics should probably be taken as 'beat poetry', sort of >like Naked Lunch. > >Robin T > Absolutely! As long as it sounds OK, I don't really mind. Songs don't HAVE to mean anything, some just sound good. The Cocteau Twins have made a career of this. In fact, I sometimes find that songs (or song writers) that are supposedly deeply meaningful can be a complete turn off for me. But then I'm a bit of a Philistine in respect of some art forms. As we are wont to say up in't north of England, I don't know what art is, but I know what I like. Some possible feather ruffling coming right up. Generally speaking I can't stand poetry. If I'm reading a novel that has 'songs' or poems, I find I just can't read them. The Lord of the Rings is a prime example. If I could hear the songs set to music, I might be able to listen to them, but when I come to any of the verses I that are longer than just a couple of short verses I simply skip them. I always hated poetry at school as well, and I've never changed my attitude to it. I can't stand opera either. It seems such a waste of time and effort, especially when I can't understand what they're wailing about if it's not in English. I've tried watching it with sub-titles, but it seems rediculous. Some geezer usually gets killed, then his moll gets all upset about it and a load of people come on and sing about it, sort of like .... Moll: 'Oh no, he is dead.' Moll's friend: 'Is he dead?' Moll: 'Yes, he is dead' Moll's friend: 'Is he really deaaaaaaaaad?' Moll: 'Yes, he is really deaaaaaaaaaad.' Chorus: 'Is he dead?' Moll & friend : 'Yes, he is dead' Chorus: 'Is he really deaaaaaaaaad?' Moll & friend : 'Yes, he is really deaaaaaaaaaad.' Chrous: 'Oh no, he is really deaaaaaaaaaad.' Thug 2: 'Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!' Thug 1: 'De guy's wasteeeeeeeeeeeeed!' ...... it goes on like this for about ten minutes, then the curtain closes and after the interval they do it all again when the moll takes her own life in a fit of pique. Ballet is just as bad, but without the singing. I quite like some paintings though. Slarv - --IMA.Boundary.076005898 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="RFC822 message headers" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Content-Disposition: inline; filename="RFC822 message headers" Received: from ns1.baxter.com (159.198.180.56) by ccmailgw.mcgawpark.baxter.com with SMTP (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 004855C1; Sat, 20 Jun 98 19:15:07 - -0500 Received: from siren.shore.net (siren.shore.net [207.244.124.5]) by ns1.baxter.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id TAA07804 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 19:14:42 - -0500 (CDT) Received: from smoe.org [204.167.97.154] by siren.shore.net with esmtp (Exim) id 0ynXjo-0003iK-00; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 20:12:04 -0400 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id UAA11357; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 20:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Jun 1998 20:11:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id UAA11343 for alloy-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 20:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ginas.gtnet.gov.uk (ginas.gtnet.gov.uk [195.44.96.1]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with ESMTP id UAA11339 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 20:11:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: Received: from d48.gtnet.gov.uk (d48 [195.44.98.48]) by ginas.gtnet.gov.uk with SMTP id BAA13179 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 01:11:15 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 01:11:15 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19980621011431.25878a22@mail> X-Sender: az36@mail X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: alloy@smoe.org From: IT Admin - Govt Office North West Subject: Re: Alloy: On a point of order Sender: owner-alloy@smoe.org Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. Precedence: bulk - --IMA.Boundary.076005898-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:58:22 +0000 From: Tim_Dunn@jba.co.uk Subject: Re: Alloy: On a point of order It's certainly a tricky one - I really despise lyric-writing, and normally leave it until the last minute, often doing it in the studio when everything else has been recorded and the singing has to be done. However, the big hook from each song always does come accompanied by a built-in lyric, and it's only the verses and linky bits that have to be done like this. For example, I'll be in the studio on Sunday this week, and I still have about 4 verses and a middle 8 of two songs still to think about! I'm certainly not a proper lyricist, and although I do like some of them alot, I never claim any great worth for my own words. As for logic and sense - I always feel tied to proper grammar and meaning, which is very limiting - I don't feel the freedom is there to range into more rhapsodic areas, which is why my stuff will never have the indirect, but profound meanings of stuff like Morrissey's, which I envy the most. Of the more logical narrative school of lyricists, the undoubted masters are the Divine Comedy, whose albums are all imbued with the most masterful yet subtle concepts, and Steely Dan, who with stuff like Haitian Divorce and Hey Nineteen can illustrate lifetimes perfectly in 6 or 7 minutes. So I guess that lyric writing is a rare and under-prized art, and most are not worth listening too, or worse, so bad that they spoil a decent tune. Our beloved Thomas, I'm happy to say, is also a master, especially Budapest and I Live In A Suitcase, which are his best efforts. Watching my brother trying to write lyrics is hilarious though. He's undoubtedly one of the best poets around, but as soon as he tries to write lyrics they always turn out to be complete pants, which he cheerfully admits! see ya the_copse <> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 06:30:56 EDT From: PROCAT1@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Alloy: On a point of order In a message dated 6/22/98 2:32:33 AM Central Daylight Time, John_Hanson_at_FRMA01@ccmailgw.mcgawpark.baxter.com writes: << Hear hear !!! I've been waiting for years for someone to say that, I thought it was just me being a Philistine in not liking Opera. Bravo for the comments ! MTCBWY and your eeeeeeeeeeeeeee ! John >> i liked "grease"....does that count as an opera???? hahahaha! mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 07:36:46 EDT From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Alloy: On a point of order In a message dated 6/22/98 3:32:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Slarvi writes: << Generally speaking I can't stand poetry. If I'm reading a novel that has 'songs' or poems, I find I just can't read them. The Lord of the Rings is a prime example. If I could hear the songs set to music, I might be able to listen to them, but when I come to any of the verses I that are longer than just a couple of short verses I simply skip them. I always hated poetry at school as well, and I've never changed my attitude to it. >> I can't read the poems or 'songs' either unless I pre-determine what the tune might be. The author could help us out by telling us what the time signature is... if anything they just say "with longing" or some such. Ughhh. I do love poetry, though my favorite poetry is the kind which does not rhyme every other line, and uses the natural rhythm of the spoken word (lines are not all rigidly the same number of syllables). Song lyrics are different, the 'sing-song' quality of regular rhymes/beats is really required in the majority of instances. Though it's fun to hear people play around with this as well. it's 7:30 am & I really did just wake up. Is this thing on? tap tap tap tap Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:32:58 +0000 From: Tim_Dunn@jba.co.uk Subject: Re: Alloy: Book question <<>> You're lucky Robin, I'm so locked up and precious about my music that I get shouted at all the time for not lettting her hear it until after final mix! Also I thought American Psycho was cool, but it was so frightening I hid it on a top shelf so she'd never find it - it's too freaky! the_copse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:59:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charles E. Kemp" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Alloy: On a point of order Robin wrote: > In a message dated 6/22/98 3:32:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Slarvi writes: > << Generally speaking I can't stand poetry. If I'm reading a novel that has > 'songs' or poems, I find I just can't read them. The Lord of the Rings is a > prime example. If I could hear the songs set to music, I might be able to > listen to them, but when I come to any of the verses I that are longer than > just a couple of short verses I simply skip them. I always hated poetry at > school as well, and I've never changed my attitude to it. >> > > I can't read the poems or 'songs' either unless I pre-determine what the tune > might be. The author could help us out by telling us what the time signature > is... if anything they just say "with longing" or some such. Ughhh. Well, at least with Tolkien's stuff you do have the Rankin-Bass adaptations available to put a tune in yur head... ****** Charles E. Kemp ****** cekemp@netcom.com ****** (812) 597-5950 ****** Just for the sake of it make sure you're always frowning, it shows the world that you've got substance and depth. - Neil Tennant ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:08:00 EDT From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Alloy: progress/Psycho/birthday tape question In a message dated 6/22/98 8:24:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Tim_Dunn@jba.co.uk writes: << I'm so locked up and precious about my music that I get shouted at all the time for not lettting her hear it until after final mix! Also I thought American Psycho was cool, but it was so frightening I hid it on a top shelf so she'd never find it - it's too freaky! >> I have never read American Psycho. Does it reflect well on our culture here in the States? (I'm sure!!) I know what it's like to not want to reveal your work til it's perfect. Do you think it'd make a difference if she were also a musician like yourself, copse? Or is she? (can't remember) It can sometimes be very helpful & encouraging to hear another artist's opinion along the way, if it's someone whose opinion you can really count on... another artist who will honestly tell you what they think & be constructive about it. speaking of reading aloud, poetry, stories, music, art, etc, I am wondering... may I read a very short story for Thomas' birthday tape if I can find or write a good one? How much time should I limit myself to - perhaps the same time span as a pop single? Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:11:44 EDT From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Alloy: Cy's salad fest I know there are some Fixx fans here amongst the Alloyed, and maybe you can respond to something I heard a local radio announcer say. Apparently, the Fixx were coming through Boston on a tour a few years ago, and made the disasterous mistake of playing the same song twice in their set (??) and then the audience started throwing food! Any truth to this, to anyone's knowledge? Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:40:20 +0100 (BST) From: IT Admin - Govt Office North West Subject: Re: Re[2]: Alloy: On a point of order At 07:36 22/06/98 EDT, Robin wrote: > >I do love poetry, though my favorite poetry is the kind which does not rhyme >every other line, and uses the natural rhythm of the spoken word (lines are >not all rigidly the same number of syllables). Song lyrics are different, the >'sing-song' quality of regular rhymes/beats is really required in the majority >of instances. Though it's fun to hear people play around with this as well. >it's 7:30 am & I really did just wake up. Is this thing on? >tap tap tap tap >Robin T > The more I think about having poetry inflicted on me at school, the more I analyse what it was I didn't like about it. I think one of the main problems was interpretation. I didn't/don't WANT to have to interpret what the damn poet meant, or might have meant. I want him or her to say what they meant, in plain English. I mean, if poetry's open to interpretation, Wordsworth's 'I wandered lonely as a cloud..........' mean's 'I'd been smoking this really bad shit, man, and I felt like I was, like, f l o a t i n g above the clouds, baby, and all these bright yellow flowers were, like, e v e r y w h e r e. Crazy man.' I can see me getting a long way with THAT interpretation in my exams. 'Cool' Slarv, right? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:40:15 +0100 (BST) From: IT Admin - Govt Office North West Subject: Re: Re[2]: Alloy: Opera At 06:30 22/06/98 EDT, John wrote: > ><< Hear hear !!! > > I've been waiting for years for someone to say that, I thought it was > just me being a Philistine in not liking Opera. > > Bravo for the comments ! > > MTCBWY and your eeeeeeeeeeeeeee ! > > John The opera/ballet debate has continued for a long time in the UK. On the one side are those who defend these art forms as part of our great national heritage. On the other are those who say it's elitist and should NOT be subsidised with public funds. Typical seat prices for a performance are £50 or more, and still the Royal Ballet and National Opera Company have to be bailed out when they continue to loose money to the tune of millions. One of them recently had its whole management board replaced due to utter incompetence. I don't object to them in principle, I just think that they should HAVE to pay their way or shut down like any other commercial venture. Many painters, poets and musicians have to struggle for years with no public funding, and are either successful because they have the talent to succeed, give up, or continue to struggle to succeed. If we're going to subsidise these fund guzzling art forms, there should be similar funding for other artists. The Labour government announced last week that they're considering allowing budding musicians to continue to claim state benefits while getting their acts together, rather than hounding them into welfare to work schemes, 'proper' jobs or other employment/training schemes. Again this is controversial, but I think a condition of continued support will be that musicians will have to produce evidence that they're actually rehearsing and not just using this as an excuse to swing the lead. The opposition say it's unworkable, and I can imagine it WILL be difficult to implement, but at least it shows the new government is aware of some of the problems musicians face. It'll be interesting vto see what happens. Slarv ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:40:17 +0100 (BST) From: IT Admin - Govt Office North West Subject: Re: Alloy:Lyrics At 08:58 22/06/98 +0000, the_copse wrote: > >It's certainly a tricky one - I really despise lyric-writing, and normally >leave it until the last minute, often doing it in the studio when >everything else has been recorded and the singing has to be done. >As for logic and sense - I >always feel tied to proper grammar and meaning, which is very limiting - I >don't feel the freedom is there to range into more rhapsodic areas, which >is why my stuff will never have the indirect, but profound meanings of >stuff like Morrissey's, which I envy the most. > This is interesting. Pick some of your favourite songs by a variety of artists and read the lyrics without reference to the music. Do they stand up well on their own? Do you think any less of the song as a whole if they don't? I'm a long-time YES fan, but a lot of Jon Anderson's stuff doesn't make ANY sense, but they sound OK. Maybe it really doesn't matter if songs don't have profound meanings as long as they work as songs. Different lyricists have their own style, some having more meaning, others just the 'right feel' and I can like both without having to resort to any kind of double-think. I'm also a big Procul Harum fan, and most of their lyrics were written by Keith Reid, who's credited as being a band member, but never performed with them. Again, much of his work makes little sense, or else seems to lack context, but it still works. One of my favourite tracks by them is Power Failure from their Broken Barricades album. It has a fake 'live' drum solo in the middle, and I don't know what it means, but I love it. It goes like this :- "Climbing out of broken windows, Crashing down from broken stairs, Keeping watch on smoking cinders, Falling over burning chairs. Tossed and crossed and screwed in transit, Broken, splintered, bruised and thrown. Badly shattered, gale force frighty, Rushed across and shown alone. Speech reduced by poor relations Strung from weeks of self-abused, Chopped up, churned out, weeks of greazy Spark plugs burnt up power's fused." Now what the HELL was all that about? Could it be the result of too much 'herbal' tobacco being smoked by Keith? I have absolutely no idea, but lyrically it's quite nice. And it's typical of his writing. There's a lot of word play, alliteration, etc. and it all scans and rhymes well, but it doesn't say anythng. Maybe that's the answer, they just need to fit with the music they're intended to go with. If they make sense as well, it's a bonus. I suppose it also depends on what you want the song to do. If, for example, you were writing a protest song in the 60's, you'd have a subject in mind so what you wrote would need to fit in with the Vietnam war, or racial discrimination, or whatever that subject was. Or if you already have the music, but have no subject in mind, you could just keep playing it until something appeared in your head. I often wonder what Elton John thought of Bernie Taupin's lyrics. As I understand it, Elton sent the music to Bernie who would write whatever he felt fitted with it, which might be nothing to do with what Elton had in mind. Now I come to think about it, an awful lot of my favourite songs don't have deeply meaningful lyrics, but it doesn't matter one jot. >So I guess that lyric writing is a rare and under-prized art, and most are >not worth listening too, or worse, so bad that they spoil a decent tune. It occurs to me that good lyrics are like football (that's soccer, you Yanks and Aussies) referees. If they're good you don't notice them, and they don't intrude on, or detract from, the performance. Tim, maybe you should try going for feel instead of content, or even try the Elton John method. Let someone else hear the music and let them come up with the words. You can always ditch them if they don't fit any better than your own. Or do a Lennon/McCartney and try collaborating with someone else. Slarv ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:48:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Re: Alloy:Lyrics How else to explain disco? - -- Elaine Linstruth Palmdale, CA (USA) On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, IT Admin - Govt Office North West wrote: > And it's typical of his writing. There's a lot of word play, > alliteration, etc. and it all scans and rhymes well, but it doesn't say > anythng. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:03:52 EDT From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Re: : Alloy: Funding In a message dated 6/22/98 8:42:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Slarvi writes: << Many painters, poets and musicians have to struggle for years with no public funding, and are either successful because they have the talent to succeed, give up, or continue to struggle to succeed. If we're going to subsidise these fund guzzling art forms, there should be similar funding for other artists. >> :) !!! I'm, of course, in complete agreement with your statement. Support & encouragement should also begin early with such programs as Save the Music (again, many, many sincere thanks to Thomas for supporting this program w/ his appearance on My Generation!!) Personally, as an artist & as someone who works very closely with music education programs in public schools in my job, I can see (and have experienced) how a school system's financial situation varies, and how the arts are always the first thing to go. If the football team need new uniforms, the entire brass section of the marching band goes clear out the window, not to mention violins, violas, cellos & basses... In funding for working artists it would, of course, be important to filter out culturally contributing artists from those pathetic losers who claim to be artists but really just want to waste people's time, money, energy & press coverage - like that guy recently who had a gallery show in NYC but didn't hang any work on the walls at all, and instead merely sold plain t-shirts at the door. People like him give the rest of us a bad name, so if any of you ever run into any similar publicity-hounding, smirking, redundant layabouts out there claiming to be some kind of 'conceptual artist' who dare take up gallery space, then please pass on this message from me... KNOCK IT OFF! Just stop it now before you destroy the whole National Endowment for the Arts along with any and all faith the public still might have left in us, in spite of all the damage you have done! Losers! LOOOOOSERS!!! Sorry, I simply HAD to have a tantrum just then, but it's gone now :) Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:20:45 -0000 From: "Michael and Denise Luckey" Subject: Re: Alloy: Cy's salad fest It would be hard to believe that the band could screw up their play list and duplicate a song wouldn't it? Although when Rod Stewart was in Norfolk several years ago he forgot the lyrics in midstream to a song he wrote. To be sure about The Fixx you might want to try e-mailing one of their pages as an incident like that would certainly be remembered! M.L. - -----Original Message----- From: RThurF@aol.com To: alloy@smoe.org Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 10:16 PM Subject: Alloy: Cy's salad fest > >I know there are some Fixx fans here amongst the Alloyed, and maybe you can >respond to something I heard a local radio announcer say. Apparently, the Fixx >were coming through Boston on a tour a few years ago, and made the disasterous >mistake of playing the same song twice in their set (??) and then the audience >started throwing food! Any truth to this, to anyone's knowledge? > >Robin T ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:12:07 -0400 From: "Beth Meyer" Subject: RE: Alloy:Lyrics Hi, folks; >This is interesting. Pick some of your favourite songs by a variety of >artists and read the lyrics without reference to the music. Do they stand >up well on their own? Do you think any less of the song as a whole if they >don't? I'm a long-time YES fan, but a lot of Jon Anderson's stuff doesn't >make ANY sense, but they sound OK. This being the second time that Slarv has mentioned Jon Anderson's lyrics, I just had to write. My most memorable encounter with his lyrics was when I purchased the Yes album with "Roundabout" on it (and many other great songs, can't remember the album title). On that album there is a song called "Heart of the Sunrise." Going totally from memory, the lyrics went something like this: "Love comes to you Then after How can the moon with its arms all around me SHARP DISTANCE How can the moon with its arms all around me I feel lost in the city..." I remember reading the lyrics on the record sleeve, furrowing my brow, listening to the song, furrowing my brow some more and thinking, "What the HECK is that all about?" However, the song was quite pretty, and it worked if you just sort of let the words wash over you. I thought of this song as soon as Slarv first mentioned Jon Anderson's bewildering lyrics. Coincidentally, yesterday I went to see a movie, and playing throughout a preview for some odd-looking independent film was "Heart of the Sunrise." I think that was the first time I'd heard the song since college. Apparently it will be on a movie soundtrack now. (Frankly, as I recall, the movie didn't look like it made much sense either.) Anyway, I guess I would agree that good rock songs don't have to have wonderful, insightful and deeply significant lyrics. But I'm glad that a few do. Cheers, Beth - --------------------------------------- Beth Meyer bethmeyer@mindspring.com ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V3 #165 ***************************