From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V3 #140 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Friday, May 29 1998 Volume 03 : Number 140 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Alloy: BOOK SUGGESTIONS [PROCAT1@aol.com] Re: Alloy: Help save Robin's brain! [John_Hanson_at_FRMA01@ccmailgw.mcgaw] RE: Alloy: Help save Robin's brain! ["Ulfstedt, Louise" ] Re: Alloy: Saving Songbird's brain [RThurF@aol.com] Re: Re[2]: Alloy: Dolby lists [Wargun2438@aol.com] Alloy: books [bcohen@LPL.Arizona.EDU (Barbara A Cohen via apocalypse )] Re: Alloy: Help save Robin's brain! [IT Admin - Govt Office North West ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 03:06:30 EDT From: PROCAT1@aol.com Subject: Alloy: BOOK SUGGESTIONS In a message dated 5/27/98 5:50:44 PM Central Daylight Time, MsSakamoto@aol.com writes: << What are your favorite books, members of Alloy? I need something new to read & could use some good advice. If you have any suggestions for me, can you name the book & author as well as what it's generally about? Thank you for > helping me!!! >> a lurker writes: what type stuff you into?? fantasy: standard - tolkien lord of the rings trilogy if you liked the above, my FAV, almost better than tolkien, is "the chronicles of thomas covenant the unbeliever" by Stephen Donaldson. its written in 2 "series" each of 3 books. sci/fi: this isn't my fav category, as much of this stuff takes TOO much brainpower to read! "battlefield earth" - l ron hubbard is a good fast pace read, although it is a long story >1,000 pages. it'd have to by my fav scifi. 2nd - the gap series - stephen donaldson - yeah i know, i like this author! 5 books long, but pretty good horror: stephen king, but not all of his stuff, even though i've read all of it! favs from him: salem's lot, the shining, insomnia, it, the talisman co written w/peter straub - fantasy, bt interesting. i've got more, but i'll wait to see more about your specific tastes! back into my hole now, (i'm going to read a book!) mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:00:05 -0500 From: John_Hanson_at_FRMA01@ccmailgw.mcgawpark.baxter.com Subject: Re: Alloy: Help save Robin's brain! - --IMA.Boundary.790343698 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: cc:Mail note part I read a book once - it was green. = Actually, B=E9atrice really pissed me off the other day when she thr= ew = away the only two books I posess, and worse still I hadn't finished = coloring them in, yet. = Seriously, my three favourite books are; = "Le Red Star" - Guillaume Hanoteau "L'Etranger" - Albert Camus "37,2=B0 Le Matin" - Phillipe Djian = The last two are also available in English, called "The Outsider" an= d = "Betty Blue" respectively. The first one is the history of the fines= t = football club in France, and is the most eloquent description of suc= h = I have ever read. Otherwise my book collection is mainly made up of = railway & football books. = MTCBWY = John ______________________________ Reply Separator __________________________= _______ Subject: Alloy: Help save Robin's brain! Author: RThurF@aol.com at Internet Date: 27/05/98 18:40 = What are your favorite books, members of Alloy? I need something new to r= ead & = could use some good advice. If you have any suggestions for me, can you n= ame = the book & author as well as what it's generally about? Thank you for hel= ping = me!!! = = Robin - --IMA.Boundary.790343698 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="RFC822 message headers" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Content-Disposition: inline; filename="RFC822 message headers" Received: from ns1.baxter.com (159.198.180.56) by ccmailgw.mcgawpark.baxter.com with SMTP (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0043ADAA; Wed, 27 May 98 17:41:37 - -0500 Received: from mermaid.shore.net (mermaid.shore.net [207.244.124.6]) by ns1.baxter.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id RAA19607 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 17:41:25 - -0500 (CDT) Received: from smoe.org [204.167.97.154] by mermaid.shore.net with esmtp (Exim) id 0yeot7-0005vs-00; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:41:37 -0400 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id SAA01852; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:41:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 May 1998 18:41:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id SAA01839 for alloy-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with ESMTP id SAA01835 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:41:07 -0400 (EDT) From: RThurF@aol.com Received: from RThurF@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id SWEHa26052 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <95980414.356c9658@aol.com> Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:40:23 EDT To: alloy@smoe.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Alloy: Help save Robin's brain! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170 Sender: owner-alloy@smoe.org Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. Precedence: bulk - --IMA.Boundary.790343698-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 11:51:07 +0300 From: "Ulfstedt, Louise" Subject: RE: Alloy: Help save Robin's brain! HI Robin! Back once again,...zillions of mails to answer,...this one being the easiest (and fun too),..I'll answer it first! Great books I love,... And for the scandinavian choice,...well,...if you want a fantastic un-put-downable INTELLIGENT and unusual story for the summer, try Peter Hoeg's " Miss Smilla's Feeling for Snow" (I believe they made a film out of it),...the writer is Danish, but the story happens in both Denmark and Greenland, where the heroine is from. Facinating book. I like this writer very much. SCi-Fi,...try my all time faves: Virtual Light _ William Gibson (incredibly colourful characters, and a hell of a lot less dry and more readable than Neuromancer) Similar in a lot of ways, and very intelligent too is "Snow Crash" by Neil Stephenson A Rumour of Angels by M. Bradley Kellogg (my No 1 book ever,...I love sci-fi that concentrates on believable characters rather than purely gadgets,... this is the best ever,...mystery, sci-fi, strong lead characters, and I really like the underlying themes, especially eco- theme, and the weird objectivity some of the non-human characters have about human nature) I loved the different way of thinking that went into this story. Anything by Anne McCaffrey,...try "The Crystal Singer", and the sequel "Killashandra", Restoree, and anything from the Pern series. If you love humour, read anything by Terry Prachett. Other,... I also have a soft spot for childrens fiction, and love an New-Zealand writer called Margaret Mahy,...shame I can't get hold of her books any more, because somebody has forgotton to return my copy of "Catalogue of the Universe". "The Tricksters" is a great read too. I've spent about 6 years looking for a book called "Under Plum Lake"by Lionel Davison, a fantasy for kids & adults. If you read the reviews on Amazon com for this, you'll see how deeply people have fallen in love with this book. If you find it, BUY IT, especially the illustrated version with Mike Wilk's amazing artwork. If you find this, I will be eternally jealous of you! I also read CONTACT just lately,..what a wonderful book,...I'm glad I saw the film after reading it though,..as It's quite different, but I think I understand why Sagan & his wife Ann Druyan gave it a different treatment for the big screen,...such a shame Sagan didn't live to see the film finished. Finally, normal fiction For something really neat but not too challenging (!) try "Touch Not The Cat! -- great holiday read, with a supernatural theme I was given two wonderful books by a friend of mine for my birthday this year by a Japanese writer called Banana Yoshimoto Try reading "Kitchen",...that's my favourite,....Incredibly simple prose, yet so deep, sincere, and funny, you get a silly smile on your face when reading it. And now I'm embarrased, as I realise that nearly every single one of these books has a strong female lead character,...GAWD,...Is it that easy to figure what I like to identify with (??!!) (blushing) :-) Well,....gotta go! Happy page turning! Lissu :-) P.S. As an alternative, try the Game "RIVEN" the sequel to Myst. It's the only thing that kept me sane through my last 3 weeks sick leave, and It leaves you feeling like you've read a great book once you've played it. > > ----Original Message----- > From: RThurF@aol.com [SMTP:RThurF@aol.com] > Sent: 28 May 1998 01:40 > To: alloy@smoe.org > Subject: Alloy: Help save Robin's brain! > > > What are your favorite books, members of Alloy? I need something new to > read & > could use some good advice. If you have any suggestions for me, can you > name > the book & author as well as what it's generally about? Thank you for > helping > me!!! > > Robin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 12:06:35 +0300 From: "Ulfstedt, Louise" Subject: RE: Alloy: Help save Robin's brain! ooopps,... "touch not the cat" was by Mary Stewart,..forgot to say! (and what the hell happens to my text lay out these days,...bloody Microsoft mail servers,..grrrrr) Lissu > -----Original Message----- > From: Ulfstedt, Louise [SMTP:louise.ulfstedt@teleste.fi] > Sent: 28 May 1998 11:51 > To: 'alloy@smoe.org' > Subject: RE: Alloy: Help save Robin's brain! > > > HI Robin! > > Back once again,...zillions of mails to answer,...this one being the > easiest > (and fun too),..I'll answer it first! > > Great books I love,... > > And for the scandinavian choice,...well,...if you want a fantastic > un-put-downable INTELLIGENT and unusual story for the summer, > try Peter Hoeg's " Miss Smilla's Feeling for Snow" (I believe they > made a film out of it),...the writer is Danish, but the story happens in > both Denmark and Greenland, where > the heroine is from. Facinating book. I like this writer very much. > > SCi-Fi,...try my all time faves: > Virtual Light _ William Gibson (incredibly colourful characters, > and a hell of a lot less dry and more readable than Neuromancer) > Similar in a lot of ways, and very intelligent too is "Snow Crash" > by Neil Stephenson > A Rumour of Angels by M. Bradley Kellogg (my No 1 book ever,...I > love sci-fi that concentrates on believable characters rather than purely > gadgets,... > this is the best ever,...mystery, sci-fi, strong lead characters, > and I really like the underlying themes, especially eco- theme, and the > weird objectivity > some of the non-human characters have about human nature) I loved > the different way of thinking that went into this story. > > Anything by Anne McCaffrey,...try "The Crystal Singer", and the > sequel "Killashandra", Restoree, and anything from the Pern series. > If you love humour, read anything by Terry Prachett. > > Other,... > I also have a soft spot for childrens fiction, and love an > New-Zealand writer called Margaret Mahy,...shame I can't get hold of her > books any more, because > somebody has forgotton to return my copy of "Catalogue of the > Universe". "The Tricksters" is a great read too. > > I've spent about 6 years looking for a book called "Under Plum > Lake"by Lionel Davison, a fantasy for kids & adults. If you read the > reviews > on Amazon com for this, > you'll see how deeply people have fallen in love with this book. If > you find it, BUY IT, especially the illustrated version with Mike Wilk's > amazing artwork. > If you find this, I will be eternally jealous of you! > > I also read CONTACT just lately,..what a wonderful book,...I'm glad > I saw the film after reading it though,..as It's quite different, but I > think I understand why Sagan & > his wife Ann Druyan gave it a different treatment for the big > screen,...such a shame Sagan didn't live to see the film finished. > > Finally, normal fiction > > For something really neat but not too challenging (!) try "Touch Not > The Cat! -- great holiday read, with a supernatural theme > > I was given two wonderful books by a friend of mine for my > birthday this year by a Japanese writer called Banana Yoshimoto > Try reading "Kitchen",...that's my favourite,....Incredibly > simple prose, yet so deep, sincere, and funny, you get a silly smile on > your > face when reading it. > > And now I'm embarrased, as I realise that nearly every single one of > these books has a strong female lead character,...GAWD,...Is it that easy > to > figure what I like to identify with (??!!) > (blushing) :-) > > Well,....gotta go! > > Happy page turning! > > Lissu :-) > > P.S. As an alternative, try the Game "RIVEN" the sequel to Myst. > It's the only thing that kept me sane through my last 3 weeks sick leave, > and It leaves you feeling like you've read a great book once you've played > it. > > > > > ----Original Message----- > > From: RThurF@aol.com [SMTP:RThurF@aol.com] > > Sent: 28 May 1998 01:40 > > To: alloy@smoe.org > > Subject: Alloy: Help save Robin's brain! > > > > > > What are your favorite books, members of Alloy? I need something new to > > read & > > could use some good advice. If you have any suggestions for me, can you > > name > > the book & author as well as what it's generally about? Thank you for > > helping > > me!!! > > > > Robin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 05:21:52 -0400 From: "Stephen M. Tilson" Subject: Alloy: Evicting the "Tennant" Hmmmm, Charles E. Kemp was heard to suggest: > The main victim of my pageturning is my copies of the Dune saga, > particularly the last three books since they are of a more > philosophical bent. No matter which one of the books you pick > up, you are sure to find a quote worthy of sticking in your .sig This, from a fellow who for at least the last thirteen months has been using the same sigfile . . . /\/\iles, with subject by Europa ********************************************************************* Never believe that you have plumbed the depths of any place . . . or of any human. --- Reverend Mother Superior Alma Mavis Taraza ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 11:24:10 -0500 From: John_Hanson_at_FRMA01@ccmailgw.mcgawpark.baxter.com Subject: Alloy: Books "....Mention the Lord of the Rings once again, and I'll more than likely kill you / Moorcock, Moorcock Michael Moorcock you fervently groan..." Half Man Half Biscuit, "Dickie Davies Eyes" from "Back in the DHSS". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 07:00:26 -0400 From: "Stephen M. Tilson" Subject: Alloy: Saving Songbird's brain Aw, come on Robin! Tell us what kind of reading appeals to you. Do you seek entertainment with a minimum of brain fuss, or something more challenging? Speculative fiction? Fantasy? History? Fictional history? Essays? There have been some very good, if disparate, recommendations so far. If you might enlighten us as to your taste the field could be narrowed greatly. /\/\iles P.S. Lissu, you also might consider the Dune books given your penchant for strong female protagonists. They are a couple of magnitudes more thought provoking and challenging, however, than The Crystal Singer or Killishandra - --- which I *have* read (and shamelessly enjoyed). ********************************************************************* Fight the temptation to choose the clear, safe course. That path leads ever down into stagnation. --- Muad'Dib ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:24:29 +0300 From: "Ulfstedt, Louise" Subject: RE: Alloy: Saving Songbird's brain Hi Stephen,... Big kiss, my dear,...long time no scribble! Yup,...that's why I like McCaffrey,...they may not be deep, but are thorougly enjoyable,...sort of like Marabo chocolate, really.Yum. Thanks for the dune hints,...I shall try them,....I read one years ago,...and (she says blushing again,..) actually enjoyed the film, but never got into the books,..I shall take a peek! Terveiset, Lissu ;-) Oh BOY, it is SO nice to be here amongst you folk again! > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen M. Tilson [SMTP:Stephen_Tilson@compuserve.com] > Sent: 28 May 1998 14:00 > To: alloy@smoe.org > Subject: Alloy: Saving Songbird's brain > > > Aw, come on Robin! Tell us what kind of reading appeals to you. Do you > seek > entertainment with a minimum of brain fuss, or something more challenging? > > Speculative fiction? Fantasy? History? Fictional history? Essays? > > There have been some very good, if disparate, recommendations so far. If > you might enlighten us as to your taste the field could be narrowed > greatly. > > /\/\iles > > P.S. Lissu, you also might consider the Dune books given your penchant > for > strong female protagonists. They are a couple of magnitudes more thought > provoking and challenging, however, than The Crystal Singer or > Killishandra > --- which I *have* read (and shamelessly enjoyed). > > ********************************************************************* > > Fight the temptation to choose the clear, safe course. > That path leads ever down into stagnation. --- Muad'Dib > > ********************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 04:28:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charles E. Kemp" Subject: Alloy: Re: Evicting the Tennant I once said... >> The main victim of my pageturning is my copies of the Dune saga, >> particularly the last three books since they are of a more >> philosophical bent. No matter which one of the books you pick >> up, you are sure to find a quote worthy of sticking in your .sig To which Miles retorted (with some instigation by Mary)... >This, from a fellow who for at least the last thirteen months has been >using the same sigfile . . . Shut UP, Beavis! No, seriously, I don't change my sigfile very often because...well...I don't want to. Yes, I have been using this one for over 2 years now, but that's because I just don't feel like typing "mv quote.n .sig". I have other goodies sitting around, but I just don't change it very often. I had my previous .sig for almost 4 years before I gave up using it because I was getting entirely too much hatemail over it. Then Miles tacked on... Never believe that you have plumbed the depths of any place . . . or of any human. --- Reverend Mother Superior Alma Mavis Taraza See? I told ya! ****** Charles E. Kemp ****** cekemp@netcom.com ****** (812) 597-5950 ****** Just for the sake of it make sure you're always frowning, it shows the world that you've got substance and depth. - Neil Tennant ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 08:28:13 EDT From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Re: Alloy: Saving Songbird's brain In a message dated 5/28/98 7:04:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Miles writes: << Aw, come on Robin! Tell us what kind of reading appeals to you. Do you seek entertainment with a minimum of brain fuss, or something more challenging? Speculative fiction? Fantasy? History? Fictional history? Essays? >> Any of the above. I just finished reading Carl Jung's 'Memories, Dreams, Reflections' and his "Psychology and Alchemy". Before this I was reading Nick Cave's 'And the Ass Saw the Angel' but had to put it aside for a while - very intense! Before that it was 'The Tortilla Curtain' by T. Coraghessan Boyle, and a physical anthropology text I got out from the library was before that - can't remember who wrote it. I love mystery, scientific texts, science- fiction, non-fiction, history, fantasy, adventure, short stories, funny stories, gothic horror, tech-horror, biographies/autobiographies, as well as texts on the various atrwork I do... "Imagery on Fabric" by Jean Ray Laury is the most useful book :) I'm also looking at a lot of George Petty's work & reading about him (he drew the wonderful 'pin-up girls' in the '30's & '40's, which soldiers then painted as nose art on their bomber planes in WWII) So far, ALL of the books suggested by everyone here on Alloy sound like things I would love to read. It'll be hard to decide what to start with! I've been writing them all down so when I go to the bookstore I'll know just what to look for. Thanks for all the suggestions so far!! so Miles & Mary, what are your favorite books? Robin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 11:42:49 EDT From: Wargun2438@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Alloy: Dolby lists In a message dated 98-05-27 09:33:36 EDT, you write: << THE Warren G, I presume ? >> Depending on the arena, YES! - -warrenG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 11:17:51 -0700 From: bcohen@LPL.Arizona.EDU (Barbara A Cohen via apocalypse ) Subject: Alloy: books >Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:02:08 -0700 (PDT) >From: Elaine Linstruth >Subject: Re: Alloy: Help save Robin's brain! > >I read that, and "The Cuckoo's Egg" by Cliff Stoll while on my trip. It's >another non-fiction story, about a computer hacker that was tracked to >eventual international prosecution by a geeky, Berkeley, long-haired >hippie freak vegetarian astronomer. :-) (It's been out several years and >this was my second read.) :):) big grins. Cliff was a grad student here. Your description is quite good. I've met him a bunch of times, with some of his old pals here too. Quite an eccentric bunch. Actually, he gave a colloquium here a few years back, where he pretty much ran around the room breathlessly shouting about science and technology. What a gas. I'm just now finishing Kim Stanley Robinson's sci-fi-meets-soap-opera trilogy: Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars. Although ostensibly it's science fiction, about the technology of colonizing and terraforming Mars, it's mostly about the people invloved and people-type issues like love, love lost, fighting for freedom/independence, working with others to make a society, etc. They're quite good, and a bonus is that the science is usually nose-on. Dolby note: besides promo LP copies of "the Flat Earth" and "Hyperactive" I only have a "golden Age" poster. It still hangs in my house though! *B* Barbara Cohen Cosmochemical Cocktail Mixer, PhD to be ****************************************** In spite of the cost of living it's still popular. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 00:29:46 +0100 (BST) From: IT Admin - Govt Office North West Subject: Re: Alloy: Help save Robin's brain! At 18:40 27/05/98 EDT, Wobin Rrote: > >What are your favorite books, members of Alloy? I need something new to read & >could use some good advice. If you have any suggestions for me, can you name >the book & author as well as what it's generally about? Thank you for helping >me!!! > >Robin > > I have to agree with my fellow Alloyites about the Dune set, though I preferred the earlier ones myself. I am currently working my way through all my Terry Pratchett 'Discworld' books, though I don't have the full set yet. If you like a humorous fantasy type things with witches, wizards and the like, these are just the ticket. I find his humour irresistable. The four (or is it five) books of Douglas Adams 'Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy' trilogy are also favourites of mine, as are his Dirk Gently books ('Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency' and 'The Long dark Tea Time of the Soul.' Slartibartfast ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 00:29:48 +0100 (BST) From: IT Admin - Govt Office North West Subject: Re: Alloy: more bike advice? At 22:08 27/05/98 EDT, Robin wrote: > > > I had to >chicken out & go to work on foot instead, because of a physics >miscalculation... the fact that my backpack - which weighs about 12 pounds - >would cause certain important parts of my anatomy to be crushed even more >excruciatingly than expected no matter how I positioned myself on the saddle >(when I practiced in the cemetery I never thought to wear the backpack, since >I hardly notice the weight when walking to work). I've had similar problems, mainly because of the angular bits and pieces in my bag which can stick into my back. I get around this by :- a) Packing the bag carefully with the sticky out bits away from my back and b) Putting a newspaper, magazine, or clipboard in the bag so that THAT rests against my back. It's a little extra weight, but I'd rather have that than a spannner or screwdriver nearly removing one of my vertibraeeeee. >It was all I could do to >make it back around the reservoir, and limp back up to my apartment carrying >the unwieldly instrument of my own torture... I must get a bag which mounts >directly to the bike, AND a softer bike seat, before I attempt the ride again! > You'll probably get used to the saddle if you persevere. I think they ALL feel a bit uncomfortable when you start. Slarv ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:25:27 +-1000 From: John Schofield Subject: Alloy: Robin's Readings T'other John scribed thusly: >"....Mention the Lord of the Rings once again, and I'll more than >likely kill you / Moorcock, Moorcock Michael Moorcock you fervently >groan..." I've never read Lord of the Rings (and I know I really should) but Michael Moorcock - well there's a different story. I currently have 58 MM novels. Need I say more. My favourites there are probably the 'Dancers at the End of Time' (a romance with a difference) or any of the 'Jerry Cornelius' saga. Also you might consider the work of Mervyn Peake. His novels are incredibly rich & colourful and his characters almost reach out and grab you - try the 'Titus Groan' trilogy (even if you only read one). Or how about Douglas Adams? you can't go far wrong with any of his. And I liked Lissu's idea about playing Riven - one of my favourites. TTFN and happy reading. John (john@police.tas.gov.au) ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V3 #140 ***************************