From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V3 #81 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Thursday, March 26 1998 Volume 03 : Number 081 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" [dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S.] Re: Alloy: I Think I'm GoGo [Paul Baily ] RE: Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" [Ulfstedt Louise ] Re: Re[2]: Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" [IT Admin - Govt Office ] Re: Alloy: Musings on making money in music [IT Admin - Govt Office North] Alloy: Musings on art [RThurF ] Re: Alloy: Nick Cave's voice [RThurF ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:00:25 -0700 From: dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander) Subject: Re: Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" [Sorry for the delay forwarding this, it got stopped by BigAl due to length, then it got buried in my inbox for a few days... - PB] >>JAMAC wrote,....a big long mail, and,.... > >Milli Vanilli,...CUTE???!!! > >Give me a break. :-) They were effeminate as hell,....even as a "hormone driven" teenager, I hated them, as did my friends. I think this is once again one of those things that guys sometimes get a jolly funny picture of what girls like (and visa versa, I'm sure) *WHACK* * WHACK* OUCH! *WHACK* STOP THAT, PLEASE! *WHACK!* OOH! *WHACK* OUCH! *WHACK* (This may explain why I'm not married yet, at 30!) My apologies, please. But I did have female friends who thought they were "gorgeous" at that time. I didn't know a girl at the time who didn't (before they fell from grace). >And another thing I've had niggling at me for ages,...is there some kind of anti-pop music thing going on? Hasn't Thomas has pop hits? Yes, indeed, however, you may notice that out of all his music, he only had one major hit here in the states. He's too 'artistic' to be admired on pop radio. And as for categorizing him, his sound seems to neatly (mostly) fit within the 'pop' category, but in reality, he doesn't. And I'm not trying to smash 'pop' either, being a huge fan of Tears For Fears and Howard Jones and Seal to name a few Unfortunately, pop music tends to be filled with greedy commercialism rather than 'true' artists. They've figured out the formulas to make big cash which has the side effect of dropping out of sight, the 'true' artists, like Thomas. >Who ever said that the Spice Girls were doing serious music? It isn't high class, it isn't to my taste, but it isn't THAT bad. A couple of their songs are down-right catchy. Nothing wrong with that, even though it's not what I listen to for pleasure. I sometimes think everybody has it out for them. I sing, I have a reasonable picture of what a voice is, and whilst they don't all have voices to my taste, I'd say they can sing. So much of what we like in a piece music is down to the music, arrangement and engineering. Not just the voice. And I also sometimes wonder why the boy bands like Backstreet Boys etc. don't get as much bad press. I would have to agree with you, but, again, I see the Spice Girls as another, "Here today, gone tomorrow" scenareo because they have 'Cash Formula" written all over them. I don't know how they were formed, but they look like they were 'formulated' by some record company executives. And just because of that, I have no desire to hear their music. >They're just a bunch of girls having a lot of fun doing something they like, and making some money out of it You can only blame the people who are marketing them, who are ultimately the same people inviting the media to make targets out of them. If they were so bad, no one would buy their album (NO, I don't have it!). , or go to see the film (althougth the music isn't in the same class, tell me that the beatles movies were all that different).... I don't know what it is these days,...Brits seem so fickle, one minute loving them, and the next aiming ever criticism known to man at them. No wonder that "pop" stars end up paranoid and insecure. Are we all such bad losers that we hate it when someone enjoys a little success, whether we like what someone makes or not? How many people bought Milli Vanilli? Just a thought. And as regards, attacking the successful, I agree. In my business, people try to tell us that only those who have special skills or may even be devious can achieve the success that some have had. I definitely don't fit into either of those two categories, but I definitely know that I will be able to retire (at age 30 presently) in 1 to 5 years from now. And only because I would have worked hard at it. The problem is people are afraid of their own success (sounds weird, unless you really look into it) and they are lazy so they put others down so they won't look bad themselves. And then when their 'friend' really does find success, these same people that were putting them down say "I knew you could do it! Could I borrow some money?" What I was attacking, rather, was the point that, some people do very little work, and just because they happen to fit some mold (usually appearances) they are set up as an icon. But time and time again, those people fall by the wayside and those who worked for their success keep their success AND recognition. Thats all. >Everyone had a right to their own opinion,but I'm so sensitive to that fact that whilst I don't like a lot of music (I have to agree with whoever it was who said it recently that for me personally, I think Nick Cave has NO voice,... but that's only an opinion ,see :-), a lot of people probably don't like the music I make,..... It doesn't feel right to me that we hate musicians for some reasons other than the music they make,... we don't know these people personally,...all we see is the product. > >In a small way I suffered something similar over here a few years ago.I split up with an ex who had been my guitarist, and suddenly not a single musician from the college music association would play with me,...rumours started by the ex had suddenly changed me from being "that foreign girl who sings & plays" into "that girl can't sing to save her life",...hell and I'm still suffering the consequences of that. If I try to multiply that by a million, I can begin to understand how those girls must be made to feel, especially when they can't answer back. What determines how you feel aobut life is 10% what happens to you and 90% what you choose to feel about and do about it. It is your attitude that determines your altitude, not your aptitude. Hope that helps. Anyway...Time will tell all. >If you don't have anything but music, it must be great to have found a job, doing something you enjoy,...but god help them if any of them trys to have a more serious singing career,...when the public refuses to believe they have reasonable voices, even when it's pretty obvious that they DO (better than Nick cave's anyway, but who is knocking him?...at least his songs that are OK....:-) > >And at least it's actually them singing. > >Phew. I had to get that off my chest. I get a little miffed sometimes,....bottle it up, then off the top pops. Please don't take any of this as me meaning to be offensive,....I just feel a lot of empathy for any musician,...coz I know it isn't easy being one,... :-) Well, I thought that the :-) were a good sign that you weren't 'really' out to get me. Anyway, hang in there, and if you yourself have something artistic, don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise. Better yet, if your insulted by these creeps, don't counter. Their discussion isn't based on a discussion of viewpoints but rather, more like an ego contest. I would just turn to them and say; "Hmm. You really think I can't sing? Strange." And with a slight smirk of 'you sure don't know what your talking about', walk away. Remember, I said *slight* smirk. And if they want to take you on even more, don't give them the satisfaction of a confrontation. It will kill them! Try it! You'll love it! >back to my hole now,.... > >Lissu :-) > It always amazes me how, no matter how carefully I construct my emails, I always seem to step on someones toes, big time! And to think that it all started from my obsession with a movie that depicts a guy who's a lot like me! Am I really that obnixious of a conversationalist? (You do realize, I use this group as practice on how I really should speak to people.) Your comments may bother me, but I'll try to grow from them. Thanks! ___________ JAMac (Dennis S. Alexander) - www.dennisa.com "The beauty of a dream is you don't let it go, you don't ever let it go." - Thomas Dolby _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 22:58:55 +1000 From: Paul Baily Subject: Re: Alloy: I Think I'm GoGo ><< SO, let's see if I can start another rousing debate, other than > nerdish discussions of internet software and modem configurations (or > whatever). There, that's probably enough to start world war three. > >> > >I never know what the hell anyone is talking about when they start in on >computer lingo, though I find it's mainly due to some kind of dissociative >disorder on my part [...] Ah, I think I know the term for that: Well adjusted and with a life. :) >By the way, I'm having great fun with Cable, now that we have it. A couple of >weeks ago I saw an elephant playing a harmonica on an old Jay Leno re-run. >You can't beat that! Yeah I'm thinking of getting cable one of these days... only I spend far too much time in front of video screens as it is. Which reminds me, I must try out this phone thingy and call you-know-who. ;) cheeyahs! Paul. This message powered by Broken English off Broken English/Marianne Faithfull. ________________________________________________________________________ Paul Baily paulb@thehub.com.au JustSomeGuy http://www.thehub.com.au/~paulb Brisbane tel: +61-7-3857-8048/+61-411-875-009 Australia When your turn comes round and the light goes on. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:32:01 +0200 From: Ulfstedt Louise Subject: RE: Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" ARRGHHH! I've done it again! Darling JAMAC, I was blowing off some steam,....t'was tongue-in-cheek, and my railing wasn't really aimed at you, my dear, just the world in general! I guess I felt P***ed off about the fact that I will probably never get the stable income I get from my job by making music, but that if I could, I feel it would be at the price or privacy and reputation. Buggerit. That's why I feel sorry for anyone that does make it. T'is a major bummer,..wouldn't you say? I promise I won't take my Kendo stick to your head ever again,....(she hangs her head) at least,...not unless you ask me to, anyway :-) BTW, are you into Bun-Fu or Dry roasted peanuts? Lissu xxxx > -----Original Message----- > From: dalexander@juno.com [SMTP:dalexander@juno.com] > Sent: 19 March 1998 00:00 > To: alloy@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" > > > [Sorry for the delay forwarding this, it got stopped by BigAl due to > length, then it got buried in my inbox for a few days... - PB] > > >>JAMAC wrote,....a big long mail, and,.... > > > >Milli Vanilli,...CUTE???!!! > > > >Give me a break. :-) They were effeminate as hell,....even as a > "hormone > driven" teenager, I hated them, as did my friends. I think this is > once > again one of those things that guys sometimes get a jolly funny > picture > of what girls like (and visa versa, I'm sure) > > *WHACK* * WHACK* OUCH! *WHACK* STOP THAT, PLEASE! *WHACK!* OOH! > *WHACK* OUCH! *WHACK* > > (This may explain why I'm not married yet, at 30!) My apologies, > please. > But I did have female friends who thought they were "gorgeous" at that > > time. I didn't know a girl at the time who didn't (before they fell > from > grace). > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:58:38 +0200 From: Ulfstedt Louise Subject: RE: Alloy: Nick Cave's voice Hi Robin! Thanks for the kind words! Missed you guys too,...although I have to face it that I can't maybe contribute every day. Still, I love reading the alloy mail, and I guarantee, I'll still keep chipping in now and then! Well,....I think it's just nice that we like lots of different stuff in here,...yup,...NIck Cave DOES have a big huge scary voice,.. maybe it spooks me too much to like it ( well let's face it, he was absolutely believable as a murderer in wild rose, wasn't he?) I'm exactly the same about voices as I am about films,....the ones I like are often a bit different, but they've got to have a happy ending, or else I get all depressed,..I'm not saying that sad/disturbing/weird voices are bad,..but when a hard day is over, I just want something that makes me have positive thoughts and feelings,....e.g., I thought Lost Highway was excellent, but it sure ain't a feel-good movie. Yup,..and I know this is really pathetic,....I just like comedy &tc, that's all. I'm very picky when it comes to voices,...(for example, my latest favourite, Daniel Belanger, is far from everybody's cup of tea,...which probably explains why it's impossible for me to get hold of his latest CD over here,..humphhh). oh BOY,...back to work,.....talk to you again soon! Lissu xxxx > -----Original Message----- > From: RThurF [SMTP:RThurF@aol.com] > Sent: 19 March 1998 14:45 > To: alloy@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Alloy: Nick Cave's voice > > > In a message dated 98-03-18 19:54:46 EST, Lissu wrote: > > << I have to agree with whoever it was who said it recently that for > me > >personally, I think Nick Cave has NO voice,... >> > > Nick has a great big huge scary voice. It may not be pretty in some > people's > opinion, but I love it...it has power & suits his work, which has > storytelling > at its core. And he's a swell guy besides. But I do respect the > opinion of the > very beautiful & very talented Louise, who I've missed seeing on this > list > (I'm glad you're new job is going so well! Any more close encounters > with the > local fauna?) > In a road documentary I saw a couple of days ago, Mr Cave reads a > review out > loud to a bandmate seconds before going on stage.. which those who > dislike him > may appreciate. "Nick Cave has two problems: heroin addiction and a > bad voice. > He's kicked one and is working on the other." Eye rolling & amusement > commences. > > Robin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:52:31 -0600 From: John_Hanson_at_FRMA01@ccmailgw.mcgawpark.baxter.com Subject: Re[2]: Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" - --IMA.Boundary.172738098 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Whenever I hear or see the word "peanuts", I can't help but think of a line from the movie "Full Metal Jacket". Don't think I'll ever eat another in my life. MTCBWY and your Volvo John PS Ten points to ths first to correctly identify the peanut line in said movie. PPS What is Bun Fu ? Is it like a version of Bun Fight, except you sling bits of Chinese food around ? ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RE: Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" Author: Ulfstedt Louise at Internet Date: 25/03/98 15:32 ARRGHHH! I've done it again! Darling JAMAC, I was blowing off some steam,....t'was tongue-in-cheek, and my railing wasn't really aimed at you, my dear, just the world in general! I guess I felt P***ed off about the fact that I will probably never get the stable income I get from my job by making music, but that if I could, I feel it would be at the price or privacy and reputation. Buggerit. That's why I feel sorry for anyone that does make it. T'is a major bummer,..wouldn't you say? I promise I won't take my Kendo stick to your head ever again,....(she hangs her head) at least,...not unless you ask me to, anyway :-) BTW, are you into Bun-Fu or Dry roasted peanuts? Lissu xxxx > -----Original Message----- > From: dalexander@juno.com [SMTP:dalexander@juno.com] > Sent: 19 March 1998 00:00 > To: alloy@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" > > > [Sorry for the delay forwarding this, it got stopped by BigAl due to > length, then it got buried in my inbox for a few days... - PB] > > >>JAMAC wrote,....a big long mail, and,.... > > > >Milli Vanilli,...CUTE???!!! > > > >Give me a break. :-) They were effeminate as hell,....even as a > "hormone > driven" teenager, I hated them, as did my friends. I think this is > once > again one of those things that guys sometimes get a jolly funny > picture > of what girls like (and visa versa, I'm sure) > > *WHACK* * WHACK* OUCH! *WHACK* STOP THAT, PLEASE! *WHACK!* OOH! > *WHACK* OUCH! *WHACK* > > (This may explain why I'm not married yet, at 30!) My apologies, > please. > But I did have female friends who thought they were "gorgeous" at that > > time. I didn't know a girl at the time who didn't (before they fell > from > grace). > > - --IMA.Boundary.172738098 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="RFC822 message headers" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Content-Disposition: inline; filename="RFC822 message headers" Received: from ns2.baxter.com (159.198.1.38) by ccmailgw.mcgawpark.baxter.com with SMTP (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0037E50D; Wed, 25 Mar 98 07:25:27 - -0600 Received: from siren.shore.net (siren.shore.net [207.244.124.5]) by ns2.baxter.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id HAA17819 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:38:38 - -0600 (CST) Received: from smoe.org [204.167.97.154] (root) by siren.shore.net with esmtp (Exim) id 0yHqOz-0006gr-00; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:39:33 -0500 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id IAA06577; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:40:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:40:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id IAA06536 for alloy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from teleste.fi (root@teleste.fi [194.136.230.132]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with ESMTP id IAA06532 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:36:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@mail-nt.teleste.fi (port 37896 [194.136.224.7]) by workaholic.teleste.fi with ESMTP id <147524-1913>; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:47:31 +0200 Received: by mail-nt.teleste.fi with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:32:02 +0200 Message-ID: From: Ulfstedt Louise To: "'alloy@smoe.org'" Subject: RE: Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:32:01 +0200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-alloy@smoe.org Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. Precedence: bulk - --IMA.Boundary.172738098-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:16:28 EST From: DAbbitt32 Subject: Re: Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" Hi all, glad to be back on the mailing list after nearly a year's absence. Now to the good stuff: In a message dated 98-03-25 08:40:42 EST, Lissu wrote: << I guess I felt P***ed off about the fact that I will probably never get the stable income I get from my job by making music, but that if I could, I feel it would be at the price or privacy and reputation. Buggerit. That's why I feel sorry for anyone that does make it. T'is a major bummer,..wouldn't you say? >> To paraphrase one of our stateside gossip-hounds, AJ Benza: "Fame - ain't it a bitch." Why feel sorry for anyone that does "make it" (whatever that implies)? There is a sure tradeoff that comes with stardom in any business that requires the patronage of the general public. That doesn't mean an artist can't survive financially or make a living without attaining stardom. Many of those who make that trade between relative privacy and the public life that comes with fame were seeking such rewards. Success, or "making it", is subjective. Perhaps, especially as artists, we should all spend less time looking forward to the goal (i.e. success) and more time focusing on the growth we experience on the way there. I feel sad for you, Lissu, in that you are dissatisfied with merely not being able to rely on your music for monetary gain, and at the same time dissatisfied with the prospects of the fame that any financial success based on your music may provide. You place yourself in a no-win situation, and one that's sure to stunt your growth. - -Dabb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:15:01 GMT From: IT Admin - Govt Office North West Subject: Re: Re[2]: Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" At 15:52 25/03/98 -0600, John Hanson asked: > > PPS What is Bun Fu ? Is it like a version of Bun Fight, except you > sling bits of Chinese food around ? > > Ah, a good question indeed. What IS Bun Fu? Bun Fu is, a state of mind, the filling for a Hot Dog Bun (as in the twisted lyric for Silk Pijamas '...and she wandered off into the smog, for a slurpy and a Bun Fu Dog), a type of martial art, a mis-spelling, and an 'in' joke known to members of the Flat Earth Society who were regular attenders of The Tap Room Mk I. before its demise and subsequent resurrection. It also featured in the interactive story we constructed in The Tap Room Mk I, entitled 'The Emeritus Professor' which ran to 10 chapters before it got too weird and ran out of steam. It's one of those 'you had to be there' type of things, unfortunately. The term occasionally raises its head again in Alloy, as in this case. Slarvibarglhee ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:15:03 GMT From: IT Admin - Govt Office North West Subject: Re: Alloy: Musings on making money in music At 15:16 25/03/98 EST, Dabb wrote: > >Hi all, glad to be back on the mailing list after nearly a year's absence. >Now to the good stuff: > You must have unsubscribed some time before I joined up, or been mainly a lurker, as your name rings no bells. But never mind, welcome back Dabb. > >Why feel sorry for anyone that does "make it" (whatever that implies)? There >is a sure tradeoff that comes with stardom in any business that requires the >patronage of the general public. That doesn't mean an artist can't survive >financially or make a living without attaining stardom. Many of those who >make that trade between relative privacy and the public life that comes with >fame were seeking such rewards. > >Success, or "making it", is subjective. >-Dabb > > Strange that this topic should come up just now, as yesterday I finally got around to watching a program I'd videod a few months ago. This was John Peel's documentary on the life and works of Captain Beefheart. I'd never been a fan, but I know quite a few people who were, and I was interested to learn more about this artist who was considered weird by the weirdest hippies of the time. I won't bore you with all the details, but basically the Captain was a perfectionist who drove the members of his Magic Band (including Ry Cooder at one time) to distraction by his high standards. He regularly fell out with his record companies and changed labels many times. His critically acclaimed 'Trout Mask Replica' album took several months to rehearse, but was recorded in one four-hour take when they finally went into the studio. During the rehearsal period the whole band were incarcerated in a shack and only one member was allowed out by the Captain, once a week to buy groceries. In fact, they were living on something like one cup of soya beans each per day, as they were so short of cash. This man, acclaimed as a genius by some, and a mad man by others, never made much money from the music biz. I'm not sure what are the lessons to be learned from this, except maybe that it can be a long hard road, and success can be measured in many ways, financial being only one of them. Slarv ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:37:51 EST From: RThurF Subject: Alloy: Musings on art In a message dated 98-03-25 15:32:47 EST, Dabb writes: << Success, or "making it", is subjective. Perhaps, especially as artists, we should all spend less time looking forward to the goal (i.e. success) and more time focusing on the growth we experience on the way there. >> I was just talking to a friend at work about this exact thing yesterday. He is a professional musician and also does illustration work locally... when he isn't at work with me earning a weekly wage, he's working his rear-end off trying to get people to pay for work he's already done for them, or writing & rehearsing/playing gigs/recording with his band, or working at his drawing table at home etc. My husband has been going through similar schedule situations getting his professional artistic career on its feet. And I'm just building up my strength to really market my own artwork now, thanks primarily to my being inspired by these two, who are such powerhouses - the amount of actual continuous neverending work it takes to become a professional artist in any field... I honestly don't know how artists ever got a general reputation for being frivolous & lazy, because the ones I know have got to be the hardest-working people in existence. With all of this, it really is impossible to daydream about becoming famous ('making it') except in humorous asides. As far as I know artists do their work because NOT doing it would be grossly dishonest. It's best not to think too hard about what you're up against in the world, though, or it's bound to get you down! Robin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:49:04 EST From: RThurF Subject: Re: Alloy: Nick Cave's voice In a message dated 98-03-25 10:09:51 EST, Lissu wrote: << NIck Cave DOES have a big huge scary voice,.. maybe it spooks me too much to like it ( well let's face it, he was absolutely believable as a murderer in wild rose, wasn't he?) >> Yes! He's a fantastic storyteller. He's also hilariously funny (though Wild Rose was a tragic ghost story & doesn't fall into the same category really) Nick Cave brings so much passion to his work that it's nearly overpowering. His songs of passionate love make me RABID!!!! Robin ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V3 #81 **************************