From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V3 #74 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Thursday, March 19 1998 Volume 03 : Number 074 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Alloy: Hackers... [dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander)] Re: Alloy: The Conference! [RThurF ] Alloy: Dodgy Old Foreigners [RThurF ] Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" [Ulfstedt Louise ] Re: Alloy: Dodgy Old Foreigners [RThurF ] FW: Alloy: Dodgy Old Foreigners [John Schofield ] Re:Alloy: Dodgy Tea! [RThurF ] Re: Alloy: Dodgy Lager! [Elaine Linstruth ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:39:26 -0700 From: dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander) Subject: Re: Alloy: Hackers... [Apols for the delay in forwarding this. -PB] On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:45:04 -0800 Turquoise Dolphin writes: >Eclipse wrote: >> >> Dennis S. Alexander wrote: >> >> > Or are you just complaining about the whole romanticising of thewhole >> > thing? Neon lights, ultra cool command centers with big-keyed keyboards >> > that go "THUP" with every strike, and virtual reality games everywhere. >> > Or is it the far fetched stuff like being able to tap into the system >> > that tests the school's sprinkler system (as if they would put such a >> > system, if it exists, online)? >> > >> > Anyway, I thought it was a cool movie. >> >> Uhhhnnngg, that's not romanticising, that's debasing >> pop-culture-izing.... Romantic are the stories about the Tech Model >> Railroad hackers in the old MIT days (split-p soup, anyone?)... Romantic >> is making an Altair play music... and Wozniak starting a company out of >> his garage. Romantic is the days when computer game designers actually >> got their names on the boxes (besides Roberta Williams, I mean.. >> uhhg..). "All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace" and technology >> contributing to peace and social consciousness (before Timmy Leary and >> the so-called "Reality hacker" pranksters started messing with things... >> admittedly that culture has its good points, but it's a pain having them >> associated with the group that really loves the computers for >> themselves).. The Connections Machines people are romantic. AI >> programmers whistling classical music is romantic. And yes, the >> mandelbrot set and the early chaos mathematicians are romantic too >> (especially if you actually understand the math behind it... ("You mean >> complex numbers can do more than confuse highschool students?")), but >> that's bordering computer counterculture proper... >> >> My 2cents... >> >> -- E(lipse >She as usual, took the words right out of my mouth. Let me add my final >point.. romantic is when you find a computer from 1978 in someone's >basement, take it home, and it still works. ;) > >As for 'The Gate...', Quantum Mechanic has become my unoffficial >themesong, and I listen to it whenever I'm hacking hardware. :) > >- Turq. >- "No, I spiked 'zem..." > Hmmm. Interesting points of view. Of course I always was more of a New Waver than most and I'd have to say that Hackers is more New Wave. I tend to lean towards fashion (you wouldn't know it if you saw me! "Who dressed you? Your mom?!") but only if it's practical so I don't mind the gloss in the movie. I have to say that the two of you as well as CRACKERS are right on this, in my opinion. Yet you are all wrong, in my opinion. Yes it had a lot of cheap stuff in it, but Hackers was not made for hard-core computer fans, necessarily. It was made for the public and (admitedly) hacker wannabe's. I liked it for it's ability to translate things computer related into forms easily understood by Joe Average in spite of its pop cover. Now, I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm going to show you (hopefully) how, even in your attemp to smash the media, you are going to prove that the media influences you anyway. Example: Milli Vanilli. They were a fake. They couldn't sing or write music. But if you ask any (hormone driven) girl if they're cute, you will get back two answers. If they know who they are, "no", but if they don't "yes." That one is simple. But let's go a little deeper. What about the music itself. How about that drum track on that particular song (I can't remember the name of). It had a really cool rhythm. It was so good that Peter Murphy, formerly of Bauhaus who is an absolutely outstanding artist in his own right, almost as good as Dolby, he lifted that drum track and used it in one of his own songs. Now, you have to listen to the words carefully, but, the song is definitely a slam on Milli Vanilli, yet he used their drum track. Why? Why would, what I would consider to be an artistic Punker who writes and performs his own stuff, use someone elses drum track? Because it was good. Now, really, are the guys cute? I'm not a girl nor am I attracted to guys, but from what I know of girls, yes, they are cute (in spite of the fake braids). Was the music bad? Were the artists who actually wrote the stuff, and performed it, phonies? Not at all. Whether it was good or not is up to personal opinion. I use this because, the movie Hackers, was not, in any real sense, phony, as you seem to be implying. It was an artistic representation for Joe Average, of what a hacker can be, in real life. I know, there was a lot of Hollywood fluff in there, but it still stood on its feet for all practical intents and purposes. And lets say kids *do* try to copy the stuff in there, they'll learn the hard way with their paint-stuck keyboards and such. Here's another example. As far as I know, most people love Arnold Swartzenegger (sp?). Even I love his movies, But! They drive me nuts! The bad guy gets off 3 to 10 rounds before Arnold takes them down with only one shot! That is not reality! That is fluff! But I still love his movies. I went through the same thing with Braveheart. Being Scottish, I go to the Rennaissance Festival and the Scottish/Irish festival, here in Colorado every year. Even years before Braveheart. I was Scottish before Braveheart 'trashed' it. By that, I mean, everyone was Scottish after Braveheart. Just like your hacker-wanna-bes. But, rather than get upset, I would take it as a compliment. You have to remember, most of these (usually) kids dont know who they are yet. And they only way they're going to know is by copying until they find where they really do fit in the society we've all created. "Son, your wr]t]N& /]k3 T#]5 is annoying the heck out of me! Why do you write that way?" Teach them something. Don't insult them. Be an example. With Hollywood trashing absolutely everything, kids need us to learn the realities from. In regards to the kid who thinks he needs a handle. Even the movie put him down. Why, because he didn't understand. Again, teach these kids! They don't know any better! Yet, in spite of all this, I can see exactly what you hate about the movie. And I hate it too, yet, I still loved it. I especially loved Braveheart. Of course, that movie attempted to be as accurate as possible, with few artistic translations, unlike Hackers. What's weird about all of this is, I agree with you 99.9%. But I don't agree with you at all, and I'm not quite sure why. After all, I abhore the Spice Girls. They are debasing. They're just another Milli Vanilli act. "They" (whoever, they are) just learned, its better not to fake something. Instead, "lets just design this thing, throw it out there and watch the money come in." I fell for Braveheart, but I was already Braveheart before it came out. Same with Hackers. To me, it was a compliment for someone to notice. Remember, I wasn't defending the movie, even though I love it. 'It's the beauty of the baud', to quote the movie. How do you get the beauty of the baud represented before Joe Average? And like Turq said, the movie did accurately represent many things in the hacker world. I'm *really* not trying to insult anyone, but to me, what Hackers does for computers is like what Stargate does for Egyptology. It's a nice story. That's about it. Anyway, I thought the girl was hot! And the soundtrack is excelent for a workout! And, I find that I tend to equated well with the Hackers lead character. He had similar qualities as I do. Socially, I'm pretty much a misfit, can't speak well, in person, but I sure can write music and can get a PC to do what I want (usually). Along the same lines, I was warped by someone else when I was a kid, so maybe I really don't know what I'm talking about. Some of us, while quite advanced in some areas are morons in others. Nobody's perfect. Like Turq, I am not hacker either, but I work with them. Often, they have at least one big problem to counter their skills, usually it's their ego. There's the example of Brian who only got 4 hours of sleep A WEEK, drank loads of Pepsi (like the kids in Hackers with their Jolt) who ended up becoming a diabetic Psychologist with a bunch of cars that he wrecked "because I fall asleep if I go below 80". That guy thought he was God. But then again, I've known others who were just like me. 'Elite', if you will, but we were the same. What E(lipse wrote backed up your feelings on the trivializing of the culture. I must be missing the point, but isn't that what the movie did? Joey was desparately trying to fit in with everyone else and for that, he was put down. Meanwhile, Crash had to prove to Acid who he really was and that spawned a romance. Like I said, I'm Crash and I'm still looking for Acid, in real life, wherever she may be. Now I'm really sorry for sending a very large email! ___________ JAMac (Dennis S. Alexander) - www.dennisa.com "The beauty of a dream is you don't let it go, you don't ever let it go." - Thomas Dolby _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:49:58 EST From: RThurF Subject: Re: Alloy: The Conference! Thanks for your account of the conference Lee! I loved it! I wish I could have been there. Don't worry about feeling nervous when he caught you off-guard... I'm sure that to him, you were the very embodiment of grace & he didn't even notice that anything was up at all - right? :) You also had some intelligent things to discuss with him, concerning a topic which I'm only just beginning to grasp on my own. It sounds like a fascinating presentation! Some day....*sigh* You mention Thomas' web site... do you mean the FES, or is he developing another? I think I remember him telling us that another site was in the works. Robin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:22:39 EST From: RThurF Subject: Alloy: Dodgy Old Foreigners In a message dated 98-03-17 19:37:48 EST, Slarvi wrote: << There you are then, HE knew how to dazzle a young lady, and I bet it wasn't just your Mohawk he took a liking to. But might it just possibly be the attraction of the unattainable that bedazzled you? Plus, perhaps, because he was English (what kind of accent did he have?). There's sometimes something exotic about foreigners that makes them attractive when they would be nothing out of the ordinary in their native land. Omar Sharif for example. A dodgy old foreigner who has to beat the ladies off with a stick, though I understand he doesn't try TOO hard. >> I'd already visited England before, and thanks to the particulars of my journeys, the 'mystique' of the Englishman (generically speaking) had gone straight out the window long before my class with this professor - you must not have read my ''twisted tale' in the Tap Room, Slarv! So I know I harbored no delusions based solely on his origins. My professor was from Bath. You may be right in that perhaps it was something of the unattainable which attracted me to him, in addition to his other qualities..at the time especially, I would never have dared to think that such a well-travelled and eloquent man would take an interest in the likes of an unsophisticated little thing like me. When my friend & I were in England (as foreigners ourselves) we did have to beat the gents away, though it was mostly guys in pubs who kept asking us if we were lesbians (??) And maybe you can give me another point of view on the following: over the course of a very bad cold where my head felt like a solid block of wood, my friend and I went out to lunch at a very crowded Pizza Hut. I had brought some medicinal tea bags with me from home, and I asked for a cup of hot water so I could drink it there...when an English guy sitting at the next table with his family saw me putting a tea bag into a cup, he nearly had a fit & started rolling his eyes, and loudly declaring that he couldn't believe I was doing it. All I could do was look back at him dumbly, since I'd lost my voice & couldn't defend myself. He calmed down when I didn't react. Was it really that bad of me to use a medicinal tea bag in a Pizza Hut? I've always wondered! Robin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:57:21 +0200 From: Ulfstedt Louise Subject: Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" >JAMAC wrote,....a big long mail, and,.... Milli Vanilli,...CUTE???!!! Give me a break. :-) They were effeminate as hell,....even as a "hormone driven" teenager, I hated them, as did my friends. I think this is once again one of those things that guys sometimes get a jolly funny picture of what girls like (and visa versa, I'm sure) :-) And another thing I've had niggling at me for ages,...is there some kind of anti-pop music thing going on? Hasn't Thomas has pop hits? Who ever said that the Spice Girls were doing serious music? It isn't high class, it isn't to my taste, but it isn't THAT bad. A couple of their songs are down-right catchy. Nothing wrong with that, even though it's not what I listen to for pleasure. I sometimes think everybody has it out for them. I sing, I have a reasonable picture of what a voice is, and whilst they don't all have voices to my taste, I'd say they can sing. So much of what we like in a piece music is down to the music, arrangement and engineering. Not just the voice. And I also sometimes wonder why the boy bands like Backstreet Boys etc. don't get as much bad press. They're just a bunch of girls having a lot of fun doing something they like, and making some money out of it. You can only blame the people who are marketing them, who are ultimately the same people inviting the media to make targets out of them. If they were so bad, no one would buy their album (NO, I don't have it!). , or go to see the film (althougth the music isn't in the same class, tell me that the beatles movies were all that different).... I don't know what it is these days,...Brits seem so fickle, one minute loving them, and the next aiming ever criticism known to man at them. No wonder that "pop" stars end up paranoid and insecure. Are we all such bad losers that we hate it when someone enjoys a little success, whether we like what someone makes or not? Everyone had a right to their own opinion,but I'm so sensitive to that fact that whilst I don't like a lot of music (I have to agree with whoever it was who said it recently that for me personally, I think Nick Cave has NO voice,... but that's only an opinion ,see :-), a lot of people probably don't like the music I make,..... It doesn't feel right to me that we hate musicians for some reasons other than the music they make,... we don't know these people personally,...all we see is the product. In a small way I suffered something similar over here a few years ago.I split up with an ex who had been my guitarist, and suddenly not a single musician from the college music association would play with me,...rumours started by the ex had suddenly changed me from being "that foreign girl who sings & plays" into "that girl can't sing to save her life",...hell and I'm still suffering the consequences of that. If I try to multiply that by a million, I can begin to understand how those girls must be made to feel, especially when they can't answer back. If you don't have anything but music, it must be great to have found a job, doing something you enjoy,...but god help them if any of them trys to have a more serious singing career,...when the public refuses to believe they have reasonable voices, even when it's pretty obvious that they DO (better than Nick cave's anyway, but who is knocking him?...at least his songs that are OK....:-) And at least it's actually them singing. Phew. I had to get that off my chest. I get a little miffed sometimes,....bottle it up, then off the top pops. Please don't take any of this as me meaning to be offensive,....I just feel a lot of empathy for any musician,...coz I know it isn't easy being one,... :-) back to my hole now,.... Lissu :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:58:19 -0700 From: dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander) Subject: Re: Alloy: The Conference! Lee wrote, >... I remembered to ask him the question I had, concerning Cakewalk Pro Audio and the RMF format, and I managed to get it out intelligibly. He answered it, I thanked him, I shook his hand again, and I tried to exit the meeting in a more graceful manner than I had started it. Well, what question did you ask him, concerning Cakewalk Pro Audio? Inquiring users would like to know! Hope the next meeting goes better. ___________ JAMac (Dennis S. Alexander) - www.dennisa.com "The beauty of a dream is you don't let it go, you don't ever let it go." - Thomas Dolby _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:33:25 -0700 From: dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander) Subject: Alloy: Blushes, Beer and Bad Hair Beth wrote > Goodness, thanks! I also enjoyed the get-together immensely, and would highly recommend the experience of traveling to Denver and meeting Keith and JAMac to the rest of the Alloyites. Of course, it seems that lately, I've been on a mission to meet every one here, having met: Europa, /\/\iles, Brian, Melissa, Robin & Dave T., Keith, and JAMac. And each visit was delightful, each in its own way. I feel really fortunate to have had these opportunities! Wow! Are you sure it wasn't just the mystique of the Wyncoopee or did you really think we were that great? After all, how exciting can two computer guys be anyway? It's starting to look like the Wyncoop is becoming the official pub of Alloy America? >By the way, JAMac, I was probably a little more hyper than usual Thursday night, given my excitement about the whole situation (new place, new people, potential new job). I don't normally have a decision-making crisis while ordering a beer.... :-) I understand.But I have lost my enthusiasm for things in life over the last 7 years and now I'm realizing how important it is to be able to *get* excited. I'm not good at it like I used to be. Of course, everyone in high school, thought I was pretty weird. Can you imagine a teenager with courduroys and a polo shirt (in the 80's) with a big blonde afro (I'm white, but fuzzy) playing his air-guitar to Van Halen? Gawd, I was gross back then! No wonder all my friends were weird! ___________ JAMac (Dennis S. Alexander) - www.dennisa.com "The beauty of a dream is you don't let it go, you don't ever let it go." - Thomas Dolby _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:01:39 GMT From: IT Admin - Govt Office North West Subject: Re: Alloy: Dodgy Old Foreigners At 08:22 18/03/98 EST, Robin wrote: > >I'd already visited England before, and thanks to the particulars of my >journeys, the 'mystique' of the Englishman (generically speaking) had gone >straight out the window long before my class with this professor - you must >not have read my ''twisted tale' in the Tap Room, Slarv! I did read it, but it had slipped my mind as it was a while ago. >So I know I harbored >no delusions based solely on his origins. My professor was from Bath. You may >be right in that perhaps it was something of the unattainable which attracted >me to him, in addition to his other qualities..at the time especially, I would >never have dared to think that such a well-travelled and eloquent man would >take an interest in the likes of an unsophisticated little thing like me. > Why do we denigrate ourselves like this? We all have value and are all interesting to somebody. But we view some people as unatainable, or imagine that they couldn't possibly be interested in us. I often wonder how many of my female colleagues or trainees (I was a training officer for 7.5 years before I swapped to I.T. support) might have been attracted to me. It was something I was never tempted to test in reality, but of the hundreds that attended training courses I ran, SOME must have been impressed. It would have done my ego no end of good to know which ones fancied me (though I wouldn't have liked to know if any of them thought I fancied MYSELF). But getting back to your prof (not emeritus, by any chance?), it could have been professional suicide to get involved with one of his students. You'll probably never really know his true feelings for you. >When my friend & I were in England (as foreigners ourselves) we did have to >beat the gents away, though it was mostly guys in pubs who kept asking us if >we were lesbians (??) I'm afraid you experienced the worst of English 'lads' at their most laddish. >And maybe you can give me another point of view on the >following: over the course of a very bad cold where my head felt like a solid >block of wood, my friend and I went out to lunch at a very crowded Pizza Hut. >I had brought some medicinal tea bags with me from home, and I asked for a cup >of hot water so I could drink it there...when an English guy sitting at the >next table with his family saw me putting a tea bag into a cup, he nearly had >a fit & started rolling his eyes, and loudly declaring that he couldn't >believe I was doing it. All I could do was look back at him dumbly, since I'd >lost my voice & couldn't defend myself. He calmed down when I didn't react. >Was it really that bad of me to use a medicinal tea bag in a Pizza Hut? I've >always wondered! I think it was probably just that it's usually a big taboo to consume any of your own food or drink in a cafe or restaurant, except those who specifically invite you to bring your own wine. Some people react excessively, but a lot of Brits would just pretend not to notice. And some establishments would just refuse to supply you with the hot water, or would charge you an exorbitant price for it. Slarv ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 00:39:15 GMT From: IT Admin - Govt Office North West Subject: Re: Alloy: The Conference! At 00:00 18/03/98 -0600, Lee wrote: > >On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 00:09:20 EST, you wrote: > >I felt like Elmer Fudd in the old cartoon where Bugs Bunny dresses up as >Groucho Marx. Instead of "You Bet Your Life," the show was "You Beat Your >Wife" (completely politically incorrect nowadays, but apparently not so >back then). The conversation goes... > > Bugs/Groucho: "So, when did you stop beating your wife?" > Elmer: "I didn't! I mean...er...I haven't...er..." > This is heartening, in a way. I think a number of us here would be pretty overawed to meet YOU, the guy who did the music for those classic games, but YOU know you're just a guy who does his job, not unlike the rest of us. We'd probably all like to think we could have an intelligent conversation with one of our heros, but to suddeny come face to face, one to one with them in a public arena would phaze a lot of us. Had some others of the Alloy posse been with you to give moral support, you might have fared better. In the same circumstances I'd have probably said something pithy like, 'Duh ............' Slarv ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 00:39:17 GMT From: IT Admin - Govt Office North West Subject: Re: Alloy: Let it be known... At 00:36 18/03/98 -0500, Crackers wrote: > > > >Let it be known from this moment on that if I hear one more Plastic Paddy >ask me to play "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" or "Danny Boy" I'll be giving >him a good swift boot to his knackers. > Well, if you WILL play the chest piano for a living, you must expect this sort of thing and accept it with good grace ... ....... do you play Amazing Grace, BTW ....... oops, wrong nationality. > >But on a plus side, this year the crowd actually liked us! I guess it's >because we wern't playing in a real Irish pub. usually we end up playing >in an orange-man's pub and end up pissing the off right royal by playing >a green song, or vice versa (I've tried to explain to Liz many times that >there are certain irish songs you can't play infront of certain irishmen >unless you want to be carried out of the bar, but she just doesn't get it.) > So, lets count them then. One ...... two. Yep, both knees in tact. All in all, a successful day. >But tonight they loved us and we didn't piss a single person off... >except this one drunk guy who kept yelling out "Play Danny Boy!!!" >(And even he was obliged at the end of the night when I sang it for him >as we were packing up out gear). You should have done Chumbawumba's Tubthumping instead and told him it was the new version. I was lucky enough to spot that The Corrs were doing a St. P's concert at the Royal Albert Hall, televised late last night. Not a 'Rover@ song in sight, and only a couple of covers (James Marshall Hendrix's 'Little Wing' and another one I forgot).. they even had Mick Fleetwood on drums for a couple of songs. 'Twas a nice change from the traditional celebrations. Slarvi O'Barglhee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 00:39:11 GMT From: IT Admin - Govt Office North West Subject: Re: Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" At 17:57 18/03/98 +0200, Lissu wrote: > >>JAMAC wrote,....a big long mail, and,.... > >Milli Vanilli,...CUTE???!!! > >Give me a break. :-) They were effeminate as hell,....even as a "hormone >driven" teenager, I hated them, as did my friends. >I think this is once again one of those things that guys sometimes get a >jolly funny picture of what girls like (and visa versa, I'm sure) > Too true, I'm afraid. >:-) > >And another thing I've had niggling at me for ages,...is there some kind >of anti-pop music thing going on? Hasn't Thomas has pop hits? > Fair comment. I was always a 'progressive rock' fan, but liked plenty of pop and lots of other types of songs as well, and hated some progressive stuff too. >Who ever said that the Spice Girls were doing serious music? It isn't >high class, it isn't to my taste, but it isn't THAT bad. I think it's what John Lennon referred to as musical 'wallpaper.' It was there, it wasn't bad, you noticed it for a while, but it wasn't classic and you may soon forget it. >A couple of their songs are down-right catchy. Nothing wrong with that, >even though it's not what I listen to for pleasure. >I sometimes think everybody has it out for them. I sing, I have a >reasonable picture of what a voice is, and whilst they don't all have >voices to my taste, I'd say they can sing. So much of what we like in a >piece music is down to the music, arrangement and engineering. Not just >the voice. And I also sometimes wonder why the boy bands like Backstreet >Boys etc. don't get as much bad press. > They will; give them time. This is typical English behaviour. We love to criticise those who gain 'instant' stardom. Those with a lasting appeal tend to get an easier ride, once they prove they HAVE got staying power. Then even if they ARE criticised, they can weather the storm. The Beatles and The Stones have both had brushes with the law, returned their medals, etc. but managed to retain their popularity in the end. Those who came and went relatively quickly, like Bros and Take That, did get a lot of stick, but it comes with the territory, and I'm sure their bank managers love them. >They're just a bunch of girls having a lot of fun doing something they >like, and making some money out of it. True, but all this hype about 'Girl Power' is a shallow gimmick. If they did anything other than sing catchy songs and behave boistrously on chat shows I might take them a little more seriously. >You can only blame the people who are marketing them, who are ultimately >the same people inviting the media to make targets out of them. Also true, but the artists need to be careful not to start believing their own hype. >If they were so bad, no one would buy their album (NO, I don't have >it!). , or go to see the film (althougth the music isn't in the same >class, tell me that the beatles movies were all that different).... I'm not so sure about that. The recent exposure of record company marketing tricks to get their artists into the charts proved that these things CAN be fixed, if the companies put enough money into 'promoting' and artist. Once they've got the public's attention, they start to buy the records/vids/mechandising, until the bubble bursts when the company stops pushing them and they sink or swim on their own merits. >I don't know what it is these days,...Brits seem so fickle, one minute >loving them, and the next aiming ever criticism known to man at them. No >wonder that "pop" stars end up paranoid and insecure. I refer you to my previous comments. >Are we all such bad losers that we hate it when someone enjoys a little >success, whether we like what someone makes or not? > Y E S, because it's not U S!!! >Everyone had a right to their own opinion,but I'm so sensitive to that >fact that whilst I don't like a lot of music >(I have to agree with whoever it was who said it recently that for me >personally, I think Nick Cave has NO voice,... It was me, I said that, but that's only MY opinion. Now, I think enough people MUST like him, because he's still around but I don't see any big promotions by record companies. >but that's only an opinion ,see :-), a lot of people probably don't like >the music I make,..... Ani't heard it yet, apart from the track on the Bidet tape. >It doesn't feel right to me that we hate musicians for some reasons >other than the music they make,... we don't know these people >personally,...all we see is the product. > I don't hate them,but I don't respect them. I DO respect artists who write their own material, and can play their own instruments, not rely on session muso's or sequencers. >In a small way I suffered something similar over here a few years ago.I >split up with an ex who had been my guitarist, >and suddenly not a single musician from the college music association >would play with me, (Ooooooh, er, missus ... .sorry) >...rumours started by the ex had >suddenly changed me from being "that foreign girl who sings & plays" >into "that girl can't sing to save her life",...hell and I'm >still suffering the consequences of that. If I try to multiply that by a >million, I can begin to understand how those girls must be made >to feel, especially when they can't answer back. > Sour grapes. They'd have slagged you off for something else if you weren't a singer. B U T ..... they (the Spicers) may suffer, but they're making and awful lot of money in the process. If they've got their heads together they'll make the best of it and come out at the end with enough to set them up for life. >If you don't have anything but music, it must be great to have found a >job, doing something you enjoy,...but god help them if any >of them trys to have a more serious singing career,... True yet again. Kylie's a good example. The stuff she's doing now may be much higher quality than when she started out, but she's not getting the company hype any more. Am I right you Ozzie guys? Who was it recently said we should check out her new album? John the Poleeeeceman? Just Some Guy called Paul? >when the public >refuses to believe they have reasonable voices, even when it's pretty >obvious that they DO (better than Nick cave's anyway, but who is >knocking him?...at least his songs that are OK....:-) > >And at least it's actually them singing. > >Phew. I had to get that off my chest. I get a little miffed >sometimes,....bottle it up, then off the top pops. Oooooh, yes, let it all out. But you've been hidden away for a while anyway, since you changed jobs/addresses. Welcome back, chuck. >Please don't take any of this as me meaning to be offensive,....I just >feel a lot of empathy for any musician,...coz I know it isn't easy >being one,... :-) > >back to my hole now,.... > Accepted in the spirit it was sent. Hugs. Slarv ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:19:49 +-1100 From: John Schofield Subject: FW: Alloy: Musings on musicians and "pop" Slarvi spake in response to Lissu: >Kylie's a good example. The stuff she's doing now may be >much higher quality than when she started out, but she's not getting the >company hype any more. Am I right you Ozzie guys? Who was it recently said >we should check out her new album? John the Poleeeeceman? Just Some Guy >called Paul? Not me - it was Paul. I don't mind Kylie's music (now) it certainly has matured a lot. But she IS hot - I got a bit of a crush on her when I was younger and she appeared on a show we used to have here called 'Young Talent Time' with her sister Danni (who was a regular on the show). I can't say I would actually go out and buy any of Kylie's music though, or for that matter her sister's. On a different note I need help. Can someone please tell me the name of the artist and song title for a song that has lyrics that go like this "lager, lager, lager, lager, mega mega white thing" and has a really heavy - - almost tribal - drum beat. I know I'll get shot down for this - but I really like it (is it another boom boom boom?). It's been around for a while but the djs never tell you what it is. John the plod (john@police.tas.gov.au) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:11:46 -0700 From: Keith Stansell Subject: Re: Alloy: The Conference! CJ Mark wrote: > > Hey Lee.. > > Thanks for the update on the conference.. It sounds like we all > missed a > great chance to meet and talk with Mr. D. For reasons I can't explain, I have only received mails about the meeting, but not he mail on the actual meeting itself. I guess my email lost something somewhere. Could someone forward me the original mail about Lee's meeting with TMDR? Thanks, - -- Keith Stansell Denver, CO __________________________________________________ http://www.concentric.net/~kasman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:02:35 EST From: RThurF Subject: Re: Alloy: Dodgy Old Foreigners In a message dated 98-03-18 18:16:32 EST, Slarvi wrote (about the tea bag incident in the English Pizza Hut): << I think it was probably just that it's usually a big taboo to consume any of your own food or drink in a cafe or restaurant, except those who specifically invite you to bring your own wine. Some people react excessively, but a lot of Brits would just pretend not to notice. And some establishments would just refuse to supply you with the hot water, or would charge you an exorbitant price for it. >> The same taboo exists in America for better restaurants, but I've never known it to be a problem in fast-food joints - I've worked at a few similar restaurants in the old days & this kind of thing isn't considered unusual. I did actually pay for the hot water (my friend ordered hot water for me, so that I could take my medicine). I thought it was something the English had against the tea bags themselves! Now you see what I mean when I said I was 'unsophisticated' ! Robin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:56:42 +-1100 From: John Schofield Subject: FW: Alloy: Dodgy Old Foreigners >I thought it was something the English had >against the tea bags themselves! Hey Robin, Maybe they thought the tea bags contained 'certain substances' !!!. Next you'll be telling us people were getting upset with you smoking 'herbal' cigarettes !. Come on, we know what you youngsters get up to nowadays (he says in his old foggies voice - not that I am an old foggie mind you ! ). Back to my cup of 'Russian Caravan Tea' (I wonder if its made from real Russian Caravans?) John da coppa (not da cuppa) (john@police.tas.gov.au) This message powered by "lager, lager, lager, lager, mega mega white thing" or whatever ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 00:08:25 EST From: RThurF Subject: Re:Alloy: Dodgy Tea! In a message dated 98-03-18 23:12:07 EST, John wrote: << Maybe they thought the tea bags contained 'certain substances' !!!. Next you'll be telling us people were getting upset with you smoking 'herbal' cigarettes !. >> I was so ill at the time, I probably would've taken ANYTHING that would have made me feel better, or at least go numb. The tea I brought from America didn't come close to making me feel better. British viruses are not to be messed with. When the British visit America, do they become extraordinarily healthy by contrast? (I get so ill when I go to England!) Robin "keep on chewin' on that cat-bone, Daddy-o !" ~this message brought to you by 8 Ball Shifter~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:58:35 -0800 (PST) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Re: Alloy: Dodgy Lager! I'm laughing out loud, thinking about someone singing lager lager lager menschy menschy boo boo foo, whatever. (Doesn't ring a bell with me, sorry.) If you find out, be sure to let us know. ;) This message powered by Oingo. It's good for my soul! - -- Elaine Linstruth Palmdale, CA (USA) ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V3 #74 **************************