From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V3 #44 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Monday, February 16 1998 Volume 03 : Number 044 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Alloy: Cupid's Arrow >>>------> [Chris Cracknell ] Alloy: The gig from hell!!!!!!! [Chris Cracknell ] Re: Alloy: Hackers... [Chris Cracknell ] Re: Alloy: Hackers... [Turquoise Dolphin ] Alloy: The Gate ["Stephen M. Tilson" ] Re: Alloy: The gig from hell!!!!!!! [Keith Stansell ] Re: Alloy: Hackers... [Eclipse ] Alloy: question about hackers [RThurF@aol.com] Re: Alloy: question about hackers [Turquoise Dolphin ] Re: Alloy: Dolby on anything at all [RThurF@aol.com] Re: Alloy:Dolby reference on tv [RThurF@aol.com] Re: Alloy: The gig from hell!!!!!!! [Chris Cracknell ] Re: Alloy: Hackers... [Chris Cracknell ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:53:21 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Cracknell Subject: Re: Alloy: Cupid's Arrow >>>------> In article <199802140834_MC2-3345-C6@compuserve.com>, you wrote: >It was almost love at first sight . . . >not Posh, not Jasmine, not Claudia, not anyone! ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ I heard a rumour that Posh spice is actually a guy in drag. I've been casually glancing at photos of her when I stumble across one looking for some trace of an adam's apple. Loved the story... and just think, if Electric had been a little more cordial in his response you might be going out with him now instead. ;) BTW, everyone.... The little "Follow Me" trick worked very well. Beena was really suprised and touched by it and loves her T-Shirt. She also like the one I made for myself. Well off now to my gig! CRACKERS (Off I go from hell!!!!!) - -- Accordionist - Wethifl Musician - Atari 2600 Collector | /\/\ *NEW CrAB URL* http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html ***| \^^/ Bira Bira Devotee - FES Member - Samurai Pizza Cats Fan| =\/= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:53:21 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Cracknell Subject: Alloy: The gig from hell!!!!!!! OI! What a night. Just got back from my St. Val's dance gig... man was it weird. You know that scene in the Blues Brothers movie where they walk into the Palace Hotel Ballroom for the first time and I think it was Blue Lou who says "This place is a fucken barn. There's no way we're gonna fill it." Those were my exact thoughts the moment I walked into this place. Huge hall set up with those long banquet tables and those wooden and steel chairs they used in the highschool gymnasium when they have a show. That was my first clue I was in trouble. The second clue was all the blue haired ladies. 95% of the audience was my parent's age and over. There were two tables up front of people my age and younger and they were pretty much the only people clapping and laughing and generally having a good time during my performance. The old folks just looked at me like I stepped out of a saucer that had just fallen from the sky. To make matters worse there was a reverend in the audience. He must have thought I was the spawn of Satan or something. He had come up to me before the show and told me how much he looked forward to my performance and how he "wished more young people would take up the accordion". By the time I got to the line about the born again with PMS in my song "Fine Whines About Women" he looked like he was going to have a stroke. I half expected someone in the audience to jump up in the middle of my performance and yell out, "Let's sacrifice him to our god!". Oh well, I got my money, got my free eats, and got my free beer and got my hide out of there in one piece. The younger members of the audience liked me and the older ones did press charges. CRACKERS (whoring my talent from hell!!!!) - -- Accordionist - Wethifl Musician - Atari 2600 Collector | /\/\ *NEW CrAB URL* http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html ***| \^^/ Bira Bira Devotee - FES Member - Samurai Pizza Cats Fan| =\/= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:53:22 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Cracknell Subject: Re: Alloy: Hackers... In article <34E5FC72.2C6C@white-star.com>, you wrote: >Dennis S. Alexander wrote: > >> Or are you just complaining about the whole romanticising of the whole >> thing? Neon lights, ultra cool command centers with big-keyed keyboards >> that go "THUP" with every strike, and virtual reality games everywhere. >> Or is it the far fetched stuff like being able to tap into the system >> that tests the school's sprinkler system (as if they would put such a >> system, if it exists, online)? >> >> Anyway, I thought it was a cool movie. > > >Uhhhnnngg, that's not romanticising, that's debasing >pop-culture-izing.... ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ Mostly I hated the movie because of they way they portrayed the fanciful way they portrayed the technology (and I thought The Net was bad for that) and becuase of the annoying Hollywood habit of taking computer buzzwords and using them as hip slang. And I hate that because after that movie came out, the BBSs were flooded with kids who had aliases of either "Crash" or "Acid Burn" or "Crash And Burn" who Typ3d A// tH3]R m35sAg35 /]k3 Th]5 because they honestly thought that was the way people talked to one another online. Or they'd form little hacker groups and then pester all the vetran users with posts like "how do you hack? what are some good systems to hack?" etc... Kids who use the words "Kewl" and "d00d" way too much. And the part where the guy sprays paint all over his Compaq 286 before he starts "hackin' the bad guy" was just too much. Oh yeah, and the "i need a handle, I'm nothing without a handle" kid really pissed me off too. Then there was the arcade scene... Well enough of this. I would just one really love it if hollywood would give us a realistic, intellegent, and entertaining story about online culture. I mean geeze, I've been online since the days when the 300 baud users used to tease the 110 baud users and I've never seen anything like the "cyber-faction" crap that hollywood spews out. CRACKERS (Kewl d00d from hell!!!!!!) - -- Accordionist - Wethifl Musician - Atari 2600 Collector | /\/\ *NEW CrAB URL* http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html ***| \^^/ Bira Bira Devotee - FES Member - Samurai Pizza Cats Fan| =\/= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 02:27:33 -0800 From: Turquoise Dolphin Subject: Re: Alloy: Hackers... Chris Cracknell wrote: > > In article <34E5FC72.2C6C@white-star.com>, you wrote: > >Dennis S. Alexander wrote: > > > >> Or are you just complaining about the whole romanticising of the whole > >> thing? Neon lights, ultra cool command centers with big-keyed keyboards > >> that go "THUP" with every strike, and virtual reality games everywhere. > >> Or is it the far fetched stuff like being able to tap into the system > >> that tests the school's sprinkler system (as if they would put such a > >> system, if it exists, online)? > >> > >> Anyway, I thought it was a cool movie. > > > > > >Uhhhnnngg, that's not romanticising, that's debasing > >pop-culture-izing.... > ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ > > Mostly I hated the movie because of they way they portrayed the fanciful > way they portrayed the technology (and I thought The Net was bad for that) > and becuase of the annoying Hollywood habit of taking computer buzzwords > and using them as hip slang. And I hate that because after that movie > came out, the BBSs were flooded with kids who had aliases of either "Crash" > or "Acid Burn" or "Crash And Burn" who Typ3d A// tH3]R m35sAg35 /]k3 Th]5 > because they honestly thought that was the way people talked to one another > online. Or they'd form little hacker groups and then pester all the > vetran users with posts like "how do you hack? what are some good systems to > hack?" etc... Kids who use the words "Kewl" and "d00d" way too much. > And the part where the guy sprays paint all over his Compaq 286 before he > starts "hackin' the bad guy" was just too much. Oh yeah, and the "i need a handle, > I'm nothing without a handle" kid really pissed me off too. Then there was > the arcade scene... Well enough of this. I would just one really love it if > hollywood would give us a realistic, intellegent, and entertaining story > about online culture. I mean geeze, I've been online since the days when > the 300 baud users used to tease the 110 baud users and I've never seen > anything like the "cyber-faction" crap that hollywood spews out. > > CRACKERS > (Kewl d00d from hell!!!!!!) > > -- > > Accordionist - Wethifl Musician - Atari 2600 Collector | /\/\ > *NEW CrAB URL* http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html ***| \^^/ > Bira Bira Devotee - FES Member - Samurai Pizza Cats Fan| =\/= I will say this though, some of the portrayal of hacker society in hackers was accurate. The sense of camraderie really does exist, though it's far stronger and less trivial than portrayed by that excuse for a movie. ;) I won't claim to be a hacker, my ego's not -that- big. I'm more of a hacker-in-training. I've known -real- hackers though, people who have a romance and a talent for machines. Like Troy, who was a zen-buddhist and refused to upgrade his 286 because he didn't want to contaminate it. ;) Spraypainting computers has been around long before that movie though. That's the other thing that irritated me about it, it took things that've been a part of computer culture, and trivialized them. I did, and do, consider myself a part of the real "hacker culture" (which I hate to phrase that way, because it sounds so cheezy), it's nothing like what's been portrayed by any movie. Anyway, aren't we off topic? My apologies for being so. ;) - - Turq. "25mHz? That can't be right..." - Dennis, the local used computer store guru, after we boosted an XT to 25mHz. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 05:02:17 -0500 From: "Stephen M. Tilson" Subject: Alloy: The Gate While I agree with Lady Robin and Mistress Monya that there is no accounting for taste (mine), I hasten to point out that my mild interest in The Gate was instrumental in the timing of events that led me to Mary's door, and as such should be celebrated. Mary and I watched The Gate this evening, as the finale to our first ever St. Valentine's Day together. I enjoyed it very much. And the day itself was truly beyond compare. Ah, love at last. /\/\iles (who was awoken this morning by an unexpected delivery of his favorite flowers) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:16:38 -0700 From: Keith Stansell Subject: Re: Alloy: The gig from hell!!!!!!! Chris Cracknell wrote: > > .....The old folks just looked at me like I stepped out of a saucer that > had just > fallen from the sky. To make matters worse there was a reverend in the > audience. He must have thought I was the spawn of Satan or something. And the old folks yelled, "Play Lady of Spain! Play Lady of Spain!" Do you play Lady of Spain? Keith Stansell Denver, CO __________________________________________________ http://www.concentric.net/~kasman ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:09:05 -0800 From: Eclipse Subject: Re: Alloy: Hackers... Chris Cracknell wrote: > Kids who use the words "Kewl" and "d00d" way too much. > And the part where the guy sprays paint all over his Compaq 286 before he > starts "hackin' the bad guy" was just too much. Hey, wait a minute, "kewl" was originally hippie slang, if I'm not mistaken--that's mostly where I got it from, at least. It has fairly different connotations than the traditional spelling. And there's nothing wrong with painting computers... or cars, or washing machines, or... well... I've been having all sorts of odd ideas since I got the airbrush... The trivializing of it was the main thing. The idea that you can be part of a culture just by using certain words, playing certain games, pretending to be like something without caring about or understanding it. Yeesh, I sound like my friend Billy whining about hip-hop culture now... But we're definitely getting off topic here. Not that computers and Dolby are especially far seperated. Speaking of music and computers (well, sort of), a question for all of you musically inclined people who can actually compose pieces and stuff... does it "feel" really different bringing a piece of music to being primarily through technological means versus using "real" instruments? Hopefully this isn't too far off base either, but it seems like it has a fair amount of bearing on Our Founder's works... -- E(lipse (who does not consider herself much a part of any "computer culture"... she just likes computers (and stories)) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:58:02 EST From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Alloy: question about hackers In a message dated 98-02-15 03:47:05 EST, Turquoise wrote: << ...I've known -real- hackers though, people who have a romance and a talent for machines. Like Troy, who was a zen-buddhist and refused to upgrade his 286 because he didn't want to contaminate it. ;) Spraypainting computers has been around long before that movie though. That's the other thing that irritated me about it, it took things that've been a part of computer culture, and trivialized them. I did, and do, consider myself a part of the real "hacker culture" (which I hate to phrase that way, because it sounds so cheezy), it's nothing like what's been portrayed by any movie. Anyway, aren't we off topic? My apologies for being so. ;) > My apologies too, but I only have one question. Is hacking considered some kind of means of self-expression to those who do it? Because I have always been told it was something that was more along the lines of breaking into other people's stuff & deconstructing/reconstructing elements therein, etc. Is it about creatively solving puzzles? I never saw any of the films mentioned in the original posts on the topic; I'm relying on conversational info from friends who are designers. I also don't intend to inadvertently insult anyone's work...it's just that I don't get it, & I was hoping you could answer. What is it that a hacker actually does? Robin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:56:58 -0800 From: Turquoise Dolphin Subject: Re: Alloy: question about hackers RThurF@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-02-15 03:47:05 EST, Turquoise wrote: > > << ...I've known -real- hackers though, people > who have a romance and a talent for machines. Like Troy, who was a > zen-buddhist and refused to upgrade his 286 because he didn't want to > contaminate it. ;) Spraypainting computers has been around long before > that movie though. That's the other thing that irritated me about it, it > took things that've been a part of computer culture, and trivialized > them. I did, and do, consider myself a part of the real "hacker culture" > (which I hate to phrase that way, because it sounds so cheezy), it's > nothing like what's been portrayed by any movie. Anyway, aren't we off > topic? My apologies for being so. ;) > > > > My apologies too, but I only have one question. Is hacking considered some > kind of means of self-expression to those who do it? Because I have always > been told it was something that was more along the lines of breaking into > other people's stuff & deconstructing/reconstructing elements therein, etc. > > Is it about creatively solving puzzles? > > I never saw any of the films mentioned in the original posts on the topic; I'm > relying on conversational info from friends who are designers. I also don't > intend to inadvertently insult anyone's work...it's just that I don't get it, > & I was hoping you could answer. What is it that a hacker actually does? > > Robin Well, 'Hacker', from it's original connotations (as in Steven Levy's book 'Hackers, Heroes of the Computer Revolution), means anyone who is an extreme expert with and has a passion for computers. 'Hacking' under that connotation involves anything from Steve Wozniak building the Apple I in his garage, to the TMRC guys spending two day periods with no sleep to make the PDP-1 play music. Even since the TMRC days though, 'hacking' has also implied breaking into things one isn't supposed to be in. The TMRC group became famous for 'lock hacking', which was literally picking locks to break into parts of the university they didn't have 'officially sanctioned' access to. It comes from the fact that anyone with a true passion for all of this computer stuff, absolutely hates it when some arbitrary government agency tells him/her they can't have access to this or that computer system. It's also considered a challenge. So as for what a hacker actually does.. a hacker has a passion for computers, spends long hours working on them like a crazed artist, and may ocasionally poke somewhere he/she shouldn't, just to see if it can be done. Hackers, true hackers, have a sort of 'code of ethics', and among the things they don't do is -destroy- other people's data or computer systems, or use their knowledge for personal gain. That's, from what many have told me, the number one rule of hacking 'Leave No Trace', be it a sloppily left identifier, or a crashed computer.. sort of a digital version of Tread Lightly, I suppose. But we are totally off topic, so I'll apologize again, and stop it. ;) - - Turq. - - The person responsible for the previous post, has been sacked. - - The next post will be constructed at the last minute, at great expense, in a totally different style. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:07:18 -0800 From: "Kevin & Robyn (Brott & Moore)" Subject: Re: Alloy: Dolby on anything at all At 00.14 98.02.15 GMT, you wrote: >While we're talking about Thomas on the radio, what about snippets in any >medium. I missed that particular snippet, due to my efforts to avoid the olympics as much as possible. (I'm not overkeen on sports) However, I have caught a few references to 'Science' kicking around. 1) On 'Dexter's Laboratory' (an animated show about a 2nd grade scientific genius), there've been a couple side comments...like the one where he was trying to impress his babysitter and he used the phrase "I will blind her with science". 2) A couple days ago on MTV, they used 2-5 seconds worth of the instrumental part as intro backdrop to a bit about something techie on one of their shows. 3) (embarrassment aura:ON) On Real Sex 19 on HBO, nearly the entire song was played in a portion of a segment about a pair of brothers who've made a business of filming made-to-order fantasy videos. It was the backdrop to a fantasy being filmed about a mad scientist, his beautiful assistant, and their beautiful victim. I'm not sure whether it was the video soundtrack music, or something that HBO added in post-production just to be cute, but the copyright notice did go by in the end credits for the programme. So, those're my recent sightings. Anyone else? :) Robyn @ Robyn Moore @ http://www.alveus.com/kbrm/robyn.html @ You knew the job was dangerous when you took it. - S.C. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:05:55 EST From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Alloy: How we met... The recent series of posts on how we met made me have to recall the MOST HELLISH THREE WEEKS OF MY LIFE, which occured in England the winter before Dave and I were married. Since I then couldn't stop remembering it, I felt compelled to tell the whole unedited, sordid tale over in the Tap Room (I've been playing amongst the threads over there this evening) with Beth & Slarvi buying me drinks the whole time. If anyone is curious - and wishes to add their own 'bad date' story! - look at the thread which begins 'where have I been'? and descend with me into the abyss of the bizarre. There WERE some pleasant things about England... there were the Sherbet Fountains of course, and Sainsbury's mayonnaise - the best mayonnaise on earth. I want to take Dave there again and have a FUN time, to erase the time I had before (NOT fun) Enjoy! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 17:26:35 -0800 (PST) From: "Charles E. Kemp" Subject: Re: Alloy: Hackers... Eclipse finally got around to asking... > But we're definitely getting off topic here. Not that computers and > Dolby are especially far seperated. Speaking of music and computers > (well, sort of), a question for all of you musically inclined people who > can actually compose pieces and stuff... does it "feel" really different > bringing a piece of music to being primarily through technological means > versus using "real" instruments? Hopefully this isn't too far off base > either, but it seems like it has a fair amount of bearing on Our > Founder's works... I am not musically creative, but as a fan of music in general I have gone through quite a transformation. during the eighties, I loathed bands with synthesizers. If I heard a synth, I turned the channel. Electronic music was crap. Then, just as the calendar changed over to 1990, I discovered some of the bands that I scoffed at in the eighties. I was also undergoing another change, since I had been a metalhead but was becoming more and more dissatisfied with what I was hearing from metal bands. So then I would go down to the dorm lounge and watch Mtv late at night and stumbled upon Mtv Post Modern and 120 Minutes. WOW. Here was some interesting music! And these guys were even using synths! I was dumbfounded. After completely falling in love with the music I was hearing, I came to the following conclusion: Electronic music is the ultimate expression of the musical art. Why? Because a synth is basically a computer, the least human thing currently on the planet. And there were these people who were using this most inhumane of things to make music, which is to me the most humane of the arts. Think about it for a second...can there be anything more challenging than that? So now I have exactly ONE metal cd in my collection of over 250. Depeche Mode on the other hand claims 40 of those slots. Put the Pet Shop Boys down for another 30. New Order claims another dozen. Aside from the half dozen country CD's and my Aaron Copland collection, every CD I own has a synthesizer on it and the vast majority can be considered "electronic" artists. ****** Charles E. Kemp ****** cekemp@netcom.com ****** (812) 597-5950 ****** Just for the sake of it make sure you're always frowning, it shows the world that you've got substance and depth. - Neil Tennant ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:57:41 EST From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Re: Alloy: Dolby on anything at all In a message dated 98-02-15 19:28:20 EST, Robyn wrote: << I missed that particular snippet, due to my efforts to avoid the olympics as much as possible. (I'm not overkeen on sports) However, I have caught a few references to 'Science' kicking around. >> me too...! on the animated show "King of the Hill" tonight, one of the characters sent a guitar band running in a panic out of a bar in Mexico by singing "Science" horribly at them... his friend said "I've never heard that song done with only one note before". The first character's response: "It's all about rhythm." He was still singing it from inside the car's trunk as they tried to get back across the border. ??? Robin! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:11:45 EST From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Re: Alloy:Dolby reference on tv ...and I nearly forgot, earlier in this episode of King of the Hill, the same character who sang "Science" was doing aerobics to Toni Basil's "Hey Mickey". It made me wonder if the guys who write that show just watched "Rockula" on some late-night tv channel..! Robin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:55:11 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Cracknell Subject: Re: Alloy: The gig from hell!!!!!!! In article <34E714E6.176C86E4@usa.net>, you wrote: >Chris Cracknell wrote: >> >> .....The old folks just looked at me like I stepped out of a saucer that >> had just >> fallen from the sky. To make matters worse there was a reverend in the >> audience. He must have thought I was the spawn of Satan or something. > >And the old folks yelled, "Play Lady of Spain! Play Lady of Spain!" > >Do you play Lady of Spain? ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ Hey! Accordions don't play "Lady Of Spain", people play "Lady Of Spain". If you outlaw accordions then only outlaws will own accordions. CRACKERS (Play the accordion, go to jail. It's the law from hell!!!) - -- Accordionist - Wethifl Musician - Atari 2600 Collector | /\/\ *NEW CrAB URL* http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html ***| \^^/ Bira Bira Devotee - FES Member - Samurai Pizza Cats Fan| =\/= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:55:11 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Cracknell Subject: Re: Alloy: Hackers... In article <34E6C315.7627@stumail.westal.edu>, you wrote: >Spraypainting computers has been around long before that movie though. ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ Oh indeed it has. I have a number of computers here, going back to my old C-64, that have been given custom paintjobs by me and a number of my friends do the same thing with their computers. But I've never, ever seen anyone just grab a computer and spray pain all over it (especially on the keyboard). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that'll screw up your computer big time. Incidently, one of the best custome computer jobs I've ever seen was when a friend did her entire computer (minus key caps) in Flek-Stone. It looked like the whole computer was carved out of granite. ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ > I did, and do, consider myself a part of the real "hacker culture" >(which I hate to phrase that way, because it sounds so cheezy), it's >nothing like what's been portrayed by any movie. Anyway, aren't we off >topic? My apologies for being so. ;) ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ Hey! Being off-topic is what hacker culture is all about. CRACKERS (Or is that h@(k3r Ku/TuR3 from hell!!!) - -- Accordionist - Wethifl Musician - Atari 2600 Collector | /\/\ *NEW CrAB URL* http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html ***| \^^/ Bira Bira Devotee - FES Member - Samurai Pizza Cats Fan| =\/= ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V3 #44 **************************