From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V2 #270 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Sunday, November 30 1997 Volume 02 : Number 270 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Alloy: eduction [long] [crackers@hwcn.org] Re: Alloy: eduction [dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander)] Alloy: Ah, life in my fantasy world. [dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alex] Re: Alloy: got Recording, got Resurrection [dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S] Re: Alloy: eduction/ continued from fear in the "White" City. [dalexander] Re: Alloy: Square Paper [crackers@hwcn.org] Re: Alloy: DIY rant/intimidation! [crackers@hwcn.org] Re: Alloy: The rant of a DIY-hard [crackers@hwcn.org] Alloy: What is "Crossroads." [dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander)] Re: Alloy: eduction [long] [dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander)] Re: Alloy: eduction/ continued from fear in the "White" City. [dalexander] Re: Alloy: eduction etc. (hint) [Paul Baily ] Re: Alloy: eduction [long] [Eclipse ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 01:03:43 -0500 (EST) From: crackers@hwcn.org Subject: Re: Alloy: eduction [long] In article <199711291048.FAA14703@jane.smoe.org>, you wrote: >It's not like homeschoolers live in some kind of bubble. They usually >are more aware of the greater problems of the world than those in >school. ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ Keep in mind a pupil is only as good as it's teacher. And for a great many people who choose to homeschool their children it is not a case of "I know more about math, science, english, geography, and history than the teachers in the schools so I'm better qualified to teach my children" but a case of "the schools represent a social value system that is in conflict with my beliefs and I don't want by children being corrupted by it." I know this because my father and stepmother are fanatical born again christians. They are home schooling their adopted daughter because they see public schools as cesspools of satanism and hope to isolate their daughter from the evil, satanic influences of our society. It'll be much easier for them to convince her that their religious views are the only correct ones if they are the only religious views she is exposed to. And while they are both intelligent and I do not doubt my sister will be able to read, write, and perform mathematics as well as anyone else. I fear that she will be completely unable to function in a world outside that which they have provided for her. This is also why many white-supremicists choose to home school. In a world that is slowly becoming less tolerant towards intolerance it'll be hard to isolate your children from different viewpoints. For the neo-nazis this means the public schools will be giving their children a message quite opposed to the message they're recieving at home. More and more I feel we will see that home schooling isn't so much a matter of being able to better teach our children mental skills, but a means to isolate them from value systems we find objectional. CRACKERS (Blinders from hell!!!!) - -- Accordionist - Wethifl Musician - Atari 2600 Collector | /\/\ *NEW CrAB URL* http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html ***| \^^/ Bira Bira Devotee - FES Member - Samurai Pizza Cats Fan| =\/= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:31:42 -0700 From: dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander) Subject: Re: Alloy: eduction Slarvi wrote, >But if you're unhappy >about your 'the system,' get involved. Get yourself elected and DO >SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Robin wrote, >I didn't want to quote everything Slarv wrote, but I totally agree with it. >If only you could run for the US presidency, Slarvi - I'd cast my vote for >you after that speech! I write, What about Prime Minister, or whatever the title is called over there in the UK? What about the rest of the world? JAMac - (Dennis S. Alexander) www.symmetry.3000.com/dennisalexander www.geocities.com/hotsprings/2717 dalexander@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:28:48 -0700 From: dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander) Subject: Alloy: Ah, life in my fantasy world. Dave wrote, after E(lipse, >Not a day goes by where I don't wish I'd been born into a hunter gatherer >society. But no...I'm living in a Philip K. Dick novel instead. For me, I'm living in a fantasy world, like Braveheart or Rob Roy. When life was rough, men were men and women were women. Though, my world has no English or lords in it, just clans. But, then again, life was awfully rough! Maybe it's just my visions of using hand-to-hand combat on my ex-brother-in-law (the creep!) JAMac - (Dennis S. Alexander) www.symmetry.3000.com/dennisalexander www.geocities.com/hotsprings/2717 dalexander@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:42:33 -0700 From: dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander) Subject: Re: Alloy: got Recording, got Resurrection Robin wrote, >We've just seen Alien Resurrection, & I had to purchase the soundtrack >immediately afterward. There was one six- or seven-seconds-long piece of >music in the score that scared me so badly that I instinctively reverted to a >state of completely irrational white hot panic upon hearing it... I love >music that can scare the crap out of me. And it can be yours for just $14.99 >kids! (I've got it playing now, but I'm prepared this time) Try Kate Bush's "Hounds of Love." It probably terrifies in a different way, but it scared me so much I eventually threw it out after listening to it a hundred times. Ok, so it was a great album. There are few people who can put an album together as well as she can. Dare I say, better than Dolby, by only a smidgen, of course. Then again, that's just a guess as I've never listened to another album of hers. Like Dolby, her presentation and deft skill of layering and structuring are out of this world! I had a friend who listened to that album over and over. She moved to California for a few months, moved back and a month later (about 5 months after she got the tape) after hearing the album many, many times she was lying on her bed with headphones and when "Wake the Witch" came on (which she had memorized), it freaked her out so much, she threw it away! Like I did. The last song (or close to the end) about the astronaut whose waiting for their craft to burn up on re-entry really will tug your heart strings! Never have I heard a song that puts the listener in first-person like that! At the end, your heart physically hurts, your throat is stiff and you feel empty! Incredible! I suspect she has help from some other realm, If I may say so. JAMac - (Dennis S. Alexander) www.symmetry.3000.com/dennisalexander www.geocities.com/hotsprings/2717 dalexander@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:08:26 -0700 From: dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander) Subject: Re: Alloy: eduction/ continued from fear in the "White" City. Boy! This really got a conversation started, didn't it! This is great! (in my humble opinion) Slarvi wrote, >Get yourself elected and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!>> Dave wrote, >I enjoyed your letter and views Bill. I think my view is that the best >thing anyone can do about the system, or any social system, is use it in >their lives to fulfill the rough purposes, and take responsibility for >themselves and fill in the gaps the systems leave. I don't get the >impression that anyone on this thread thinks that the educational system is >designed to produce mindless factory fodder. Yes, in spite of my comments, I do believe that the educational system did help me greatly, but I also believe it crippled me as well, and I'm not sure how to fix it. I can have 10 to 20 different thoughts running through my mind at one moment and latching on to one of those and doing something with it often takes great effort. I actually remember a time when I was very young and I didn't have that problem. >I think it's more that there >seem to be, on a large scale, many broad failings in education that the >worlds governements don't have any real reason to correct. It doesn't hurt >america much to have a large percentage of the population reading at a third >grade level, as long as enough people are still able to do the brain work. > >I'm not sure that becoming involved in politics is really a way to improve >much though. I think people should work on their own to improve things, work >as a substitute teacher, become a teacher or tutor with a community program >or in a school. I would have to say that, not everyone can participate in these things. I can't. I have trained people in the past, but it was based on such basic logic and it was for a tool that my students were going to be using 90% of their work day, so I had an easy audience. Though, one time, the company I used to work for would send some of us over once a week to help elementary kids to do some fun projects. It was a great experience for everyone! Maybe it's me, er, well, uh, I KNOW it's me, but I just don't feel comfortable around kids. In one sense, I love them so deeply. Watching a child learn something can pull a tear of joy from my eye. In the other sense, I'm afraid I'll do something wrong, wreck their lives in some valuable way; stife them. I tend to be too rigid and demanding at times. I also always seem to do and say the wrong things in person. In written form, I probably appear to be stable and comfortable, but in person I tend to have an insecurity about myself. Am I rambling? I think I'm rambling. Yep; that last paragraph pretty much sounds like me in real life conversation. Weird! It's like there's two different people in me, the one everyone sees and the other that I see and few people get a glimpse of. Or maybe I'm psychotic! Could be! I wonder what kind? Am I still rambling?! Quit that! Now! People can also better themselves by educating themselves. Where do you have a great need in your life? Read about it, talk to others. I have to give Robin a great deal of credit here. She has been patient with me in our very deep conversations and has helped me to realize some great impedements in my life. A true friend! You got yourself a great wife there Dave. Now if I could just find a woman like that to take care of me, I'd be doing just fantastic! Ok, I'm sidetraking here. Sorry. >Over all I just think there is a great deal of self education that everyone >should be doing. One of the reasons I am an admirer or T.D.R. is that he is >a person who educated himself in regard to his current profession. I look at >how successful he's been compared to people who I know who've gone to Berklee >School of Music (I'm in Boston so they're local to me) and it seems an >excellent example of the strengths of a self made person versus a formally >educated one. Yes! Great example. There is another person in my life who has found tremendous, incredible success in his life and he is gracious enough to help people, even on a one-on-one basis to help them find a satisfying life. He has transformed thousands of lives. Before anyone starts second-guessing me, no, I'm not a follower of this guy. I look up to no one and I look down on no one. But I do know he has got an incredible amount of good solid advice, and the right attitude! One of his most favorite principles is self education. And this was a guy who did lousy in public education and came from poor immigrant farmers. Today, he's a multi-millionaire. >But Bill, please throw in your two cents worth whenever you get the urge. > There's no reason to bite your tounge. Here here! JAMac - (Dennis S. Alexander) www.symmetry.3000.com/dennisalexander www.geocities.com/hotsprings/2717 dalexander@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 04:29:58 -0500 (EST) From: crackers@hwcn.org Subject: Re: Alloy: Square Paper In article <971129191759_666286931@mrin43.mail.aol.com>, you wrote: >I sat down, and he began handing piles of paper to me in a distracted manner ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ Oh, those were his careful notes. ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ >, all of them covered in tiny writing. I began to look them over. ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ Were they like tiny insects in the palm of history? ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ >The symbols in pencil on these pages were strange to me; I was afraid I >wouldn't understand. ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ You can't reeeeeeeeeead his writing. His own writing! CRACKERS (Back to the tiny insects from hell!!) - -- Accordionist - Wethifl Musician - Atari 2600 Collector | /\/\ *NEW CrAB URL* http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html ***| \^^/ Bira Bira Devotee - FES Member - Samurai Pizza Cats Fan| =\/= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 04:29:59 -0500 (EST) From: crackers@hwcn.org Subject: Re: Alloy: DIY rant/intimidation! In article <971129224057_328699979@mrin41.mail.aol.com>, you wrote: >The whole high-tech thing (with items becoming obsolete within a year or >two of their original production) seems INSANE to me. I'm so curious about >how it works, but I refuse to be strung along chasing after the most >up-to-date knowledge/equipment I can find, only to have some geek tell me >next year that what I just took the time & trouble to learn/invest my money >in isn't cool enough anymore. I think it's scaring me off big time. ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ I have a friend who has to (in his mind) constantly be on the cutting edge of technology. This causes him no end of stress (hell, you can't turn around without a faster CD-ROM or modem comming out). I just laugh at him an say, "You should just do what I do, instead of sweating it out on the upgrade path stay on the downgrade path." The computer I use for my daily chores and internet needs may only be a 486... but it was a free 486. And eventually someone will want to replace their current machine with the biggest and best and I'll be there to catch their pentium before it hits the garbage bin. And I'll probably never give up my ST for MIDI work. And these puppies only cost $10. CRACKERS (Catching cast offs from hell!!) - -- Accordionist - Wethifl Musician - Atari 2600 Collector | /\/\ *NEW CrAB URL* http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html ***| \^^/ Bira Bira Devotee - FES Member - Samurai Pizza Cats Fan| =\/= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 04:29:59 -0500 (EST) From: crackers@hwcn.org Subject: Re: Alloy: The rant of a DIY-hard In article <971129215218_-1973719194@mrin83.mail.aol.com>, you wrote: >There is a trick we painters use that goes back quite a ways, and it is used >by other creative people who know damn well that their end product is what >counts . For the the words "old" and "obsolete" we substitue "vintage" and >"original". It goes a long way toward manipulating a cretin while keeping >your buget nicely in check. ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ The only problem with this and synths is, if it's just old and obsolete, you can get it for next to nothing. But if it's "vintage" it suddenly becomes more expensive than gold. So the whole trick to working with yesterday's technology is grabbing it between the time it is "The best thing since sliced bread" and a "vintage classic" while it's "obsolete crap". And to rant even further.... The only thing that's worse than not being taken seriously because you're using outdated gear, is when people spend big bucks to create the illusion that what they are doing was done on a low budget with ancient gear. It's just one of those things that make you go "ARRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!" CRACKERS (The demerol has worn off and I'm ready to rant from hell!!) - -- Accordionist - Wethifl Musician - Atari 2600 Collector | /\/\ *NEW CrAB URL* http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html ***| \^^/ Bira Bira Devotee - FES Member - Samurai Pizza Cats Fan| =\/= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:31:42 -0700 From: dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander) Subject: Alloy: What is "Crossroads." Europa wrote, >Perhaps some of our >British list members can enlighten us about a couple of things I didn't >get, i.e.what is "Crossroads" Well, being an American, I believe it has reference to the story of "Crossroads". That of the purported 'true story' of one Robert Johnson. A black man in the south who was quite gifted at the blues on guitar. Legend has it that he sold his soul to the devil for his abilities. His abilities cost him his life in the end as his conceit led him to flirt with a bartenders wife or girlfriend at one of his performances. The bartender then poisoned his drink and he died that night. "Crossroads" was the name of one of his songs where he explains the point where he was trying to decide if he should sell his soul or not. It was the theme for a movie (I've yet to see, but would very much like to). Robert Johnson was practically the foundation for the inspiration of the careers of a great many of rock's 'gods'. Though he died in, I believe the 1930's, his music has been preserved and was even compiled from old, scratchy 78 RPM's onto a double CD set (which I own). Eric Clapton, Vernon Reid (? 'Living Color' guitarist), Jimmy Page and someone else were more than willing to be interviewed for an article that covered the release of the aforementioned CD set. These people don't do interviews, but for this guy, Robert Johnson, they were very excited to extoll their praises unto the man. Well, that's wat I know about Robert Johnson and the story of "Crossroads." Is that the reference in the article, I don't know, but it's a good guess, I suppose. A very interesting story, nonetheless. JAMac - (Dennis S. Alexander) www.symmetry.3000.com/dennisalexander www.geocities.com/hotsprings/2717 dalexander@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:21:49 -0700 From: dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander) Subject: Re: Alloy: eduction [long] E(lipse wrote, >Yes. That is by far the most important, critical thing for anyone to >grow up secure, intelligent, emotionally healthy, etc. (Discounting >things necessary for survival, like food..) Also why there is only so >much you can do by playing with the system...kids in a horrible nasty >system with very supportive, intelligent, confidence building parents >will still probably do better than kids in a lovely, other-wise healthy >supportive environment with parents who don't give a damn. But I still >think there's plenty that can and should be changed for the bertteranyway. Well put. >The parents AND children take first hand in teaching, you mean. :) >No, I don't think that homeschooling is "the answer"... it's -an- >answer. It's too impractical for many people is the main reason it >wouldn't work. Of course I don't think that everyone "should" >homeschool, that would be silly. I just think that many more people >should be aware that they have a choice, than are. There's a difference >between going to school because everyone else does and it's required by >law, and going to school because child and parents have carefully >considered all of the alternatives and decided that it was the best, >most practical choice for all involved. Although homeschooling has >become somewhat mainstream, most people still don't know very much >about it, and especially not about unschooling. Around here, "homeschooling" >is considered to be school-at-home, with daddy going to work, and mommy >putting a blackboard up in the living room and assigning the kids essays >and arithmatic problems. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that >kind of homeschooling, it works wonderfully for some people, but again, >I think people should be aware that there are other options. That the >parent doesn't have to be a teacher, or even have to know very much >about whatever the child is interested in learning, etc. I stand corrected. I have known a number of children who grew up on homeschooling, and while in many ways they ended up being more stable and feeling better about themselves as individuals, they tended to have more problems interacting socially. But most of that was probably from over-protective parents who taught their children themselves because they were afraid of what the children at school would do to their children. Yet, I agree with you; If a parent teaches their children at home simply to give them a better education, then the results can be much better than public education. But it shouldn't be used as a crutch for children with poor self-esteem or self-righteous parents. >How will children learn to combat the negativity if they don't confront >it? Shall I tell the horror stories of children, even children with >loving, well-meaning parents, who have fallen so far into that >negativity that they've done drugs, joined gangs, become suicidal... or >maybe those who just lose touch, never fit in, have no >self-confidence... stuck with lables like "gifted" or "learning >disabled" (both of which could potentially have some use or meaning, but >are more usually simply harmful to the individual stuck with them), Like me? Actually, in person I just appear to be very silently eclectic, otherwise, normal. Inside, I'm a powerful, free spirit trying to figure out just what sort of cage it is that contains me. >put on drugs like Ritalin (don't even get me started on that), I'll try not to but I perceive you and I feel the same about Ritalin, the horror drug of our school system. > unable to >learn, unable to think... kids who get up at five in the morning to take >the bus in to school, get home at three or four, say hi to their >parents, eat dinner, spend maybe an hour talking to a friend, taking >care of pets, etc, take a shower, and are doing homework until they >finish, at around two in the morning, when they can finally go to >bed...to get up at five the next morning and repeat the cycle? (Yes, I >know someone personally who lived like this for several months.) Don't forget the many hours of mind-numbing TV. >It's not like homeschoolers live in some kind of bubble. They usually >are more aware of the greater problems of the world than those in >school. As very young kids, they have the security and self confidence >they need, as teenagers, dealing with their changing emotions, bodies, >and greater awareness of the world, they can reflect on themselves and >others without having to worry about day-to-day survival--am I going to >be raped by my English teacher, is the guy driving me to the school >dance on LSD again? Um, did you have it rough as a kid? Of course, I'm not suggesting that these were your problems, but they must have been similar. My problems were never in these contexts. But then again, I was too geeky to get into such situations, influences and whatever. Trapped in my own world. >That sort of thing leads to a selfish survivalist >attitude, and one that is so down on humanity that it believes there is >nothing that can be done, and uses this as an excuse for apathy. It didn't for me. If there was a kid that was picked on in school, it was me. I was an easy target. I never won a fight, which I always seemed to get into without my effort. I never started a fight. I was persecuted, crushed, etc. Yet today I have a life that is more stable than most of my classmates. Never did drugs or smoke (I'm not trying to offend anyone here, by the way), never got a girl pregnant, let alone rape, never owned a gun for protection or otherwise, never commited any serious crime, landed some pretty good jobs which I kept for years, etc. While I learned to lay blam in others, I eventually learned I had to take responsibility. I learned that discipline is a necessity. I learned that principles, not rules, work best. I learned the power of virtues. I learned to help others, without getting ripped off in the process. No, it wasn't easy, but "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." >Kids >with a firmer foundation, much, much more time to learn and develope >their talents, etc., are usually not only better able to deal with these >situations themselves, but better at looking at how it affects everyone, >and more confident that they can make a difference. The problems I experienced were two-fold. The system really didn't give a damn what I learned or how successful I was and my mother, though well-intended, couldn't properly train me. Oh, she tried and did help tremendously but she had her own problems, which came from her parents. It's a snowball effect. I hope it has stopped with me. >I can name two >homeschoolers off the top of my head who biked across a continent on >their own (one was through south america, the other was from connecticut >to oregon)... Homeschoolers have more of a chance to interact with the >world, and more faith in their ability to change it. More time to >volunteer and do things for the environment, the poor, etc (and lots of >them do), more interest and more confidence that what they're doing is >important. They're also more likely to, like me, take a very intimate >interest in education in general, and are for the most part painfully >aware of what some of their friends in school have to deal with. >Again, they realize that there is a choice and things don't have to be the way >they are in the public schools, whereas many schooled kids think that >things -must- be like that, that it's horrible but there's no way around >it.. which leads to more apathy. Fortunately, my parents made sure I didn't learn that. >There was a study done on US soldiers showing that the ones with a safe, >healthy, happy childhood did much better when faced with the extremely >negative situations of war and combat, than those who had been dealing >with negative situations all their lives--the ones who grew up on the street, >were abused as children, etc. Well, I grew up in one of those good environments, and I would have to say that, yes, I agree. But I have a friend who lived on the streets on and off throughout his life, an orphan, who learned how to kill for survival. He's 45, opinionated, broke, but more stable and happier at the center of his life. He is happy, regardless of his situation. You can read it on his face. He's taught me many things my parents couldn't fathom I needed to learn. >I may be off on details, my reference is in a book that I read a while >ago, and the book is at the library, so I can't give you the name of the >paper right now. Next time I'm at the library I'll see if I can get >ahold of the book and look it up. *snip* (Trying to save space and time. Whoa! Was that an episode of Star Trek?) >I think more important though is that so many grown-up homeschoolers >find other ways of making a living that they're happier with, and can >support themselves and their families with. Writing, starting their own >businesses, finding the rare "good" corporations to work for, etc, etc, >etc. Some of them are probably the people who buy a little plot of land >in the middle of nowhere and become homesteaders--run to your library >and see if they have a copy of the magazine "CountrySide" for more about >homesteading... we're talking those people who buck the system entirely >and build houses out of strawbales and farm their own food and trade >services with their friends and don't have or need much money.. there're >more of them than you'd think. They're certainly still a minority though. I'll bet, but they do have something I desire and am still learning to achieve. And while all of your comments here are valid, my personal experience is, if the school system were better, not filled with it's ridiculous rules and politics, etc. If the teachers in the first few grades were more patient and skilled at the arts of teachings, there wouldn't be troubled soules like mine, wandering around for answers. But then again, perhapse I don't give my mother enough credit. Maybe she could have taught me at home and I would have been the Einstein/(insert name of someone who does very well, socially) I see inside me. >Yes, wisdom is obviously very important, and certainly something up to >the parents and child... Yes. I think the point is indisputable. > We were much better off living in villages as farmers, >> weavers, blacksmiths and such. But you've always got some idiot who >> wants to play god and see how many people he can lord himself over. > >Heh... Actually, we were MUCH better off as hunter-gatherers, before we >invented agriculture, but that's another conversation... Probably. >St. John, as Grace Llewellyn calls him, started the modern homeschooling >revolution, but mostly was just a wonderful, creative, compassionate, >intelligent guy. Wrote a lot of books, his most well-known of which is >"Why Children Fail"... was a public school english teacher at one point >(just like Grace, and my old friend Kate...)... if you have time and >inclination, look him up at your local library and see if they have any >of his books. Will do, when I have the chance. >> I appreciated you comments! Keep them coming! > >Ditto! And I couldn't stop if I tried... ;) I hope we aren't bothering >the rest of the people on the list, this has strayed rather far off >topic! If anyone objects, I'm willing to take it off the list. Nah! They can always just skip/delete them. As long as we keep the subject up to date. The '(long)' was well chosen! JAMac - (Dennis S. Alexander) www.symmetry.3000.com/dennisalexander www.geocities.com/hotsprings/2717 dalexander@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:29:15 -0700 From: dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander) Subject: Re: Alloy: eduction/ continued from fear in the "White" City. Slarvi wrote, >Well, I have to take issue with some of the views expressed recently about >education, or at least add a few of my own thoughts on this subject. *snip* >1. I'm not convinced that governments' aims have been to produce mindless >factory fodder. Do ALL politicians plot together to maintain their superior >position and keep the populace down? I think not. I'm sure many are >genuinely acting for the common good, but only time will tell whether >they'll succeed. It is my personal opinion that honest and good politicians don't last long and/or don't get far. If they end up supporting some educational program, it's because they're trying to make a good image for themselves or it will directly affect their pocketbooks or their children. >Assuming they DID want to keep the populace in ignorance, how would they? Well, everyone knows that that would be impossible; 'You can fool some of the people some of time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.' But while most people are not truly ignorant, they choose ignorance because they would rather not have to deal with it and subject themselves to these 'vices' that have been created out of need by this system as long as it doesn't hurt them too much. And yet, there are some who are completely blinded by the 'propaganda' that 'all's well' (perhapse they could be called blind patriots). >Intelligent people don't become less so by being subject to >state education. If that was the case we probably wouldn't be able to >express the views which have already been voiced here. We live in a 'free society'. As long as people have this comfort, the 'criminals' can get by with whatever they are allowed. "We pay taxes, we don't like to, we know we pay too much, but it doesn't hurt too bad. At least I can complain about it without getting in trouble. And if they do go too far for comfort, we can just start another revolution! That's the spirit!" How many people have you heard saying similar things? >There are plenty of >successful people who were failed by their education systems, and plenty of >folk who don't reach their possible potential despite the best education the >state can provide or money can buy. I was one of those people who was failed by the educational system. I'm not normal. I was too slow in my handwriting (which was perfect, for all practical purposes), so the teachers pushed me to write faster. Now I've got sloppy handwriting. In similar ways, my brainwaves often get severely scrambled and I have to stop and reorganize them. That's why at interviews, I have to translate English questions into my internal language (whatever that may be), solve the puzzle and translate it back into English. There is a pause and a shifting of the eyes away for just a brief moment. This is often percieved as a lack of confidence. I belive that if I were properly trained (put in a special school) when I was a wee tike, I might even qualify for MENZA. Heck! I bet most people would! But I do listen to the teachings of those who are successful people who failed in the educational system. I learn a lot more from them than I do from anyone else who has the 'qualifications.' >2. Regardless of what the education authorities may want to be taught, and >the accepted methods to be used, teachers have their own styles. Many of us >have been lucky enough to be in a class where the teacher exudes enthusiasm >about the subject and has a unique way of getting students' interest. Many >use novel and innovative methods to capture the imagination of their >students. Unfortunately, for every one of these, there are probably ten >disillusioned teachers going through the motions, maybe unable to control >their unruly classes and cynical about the education system themselves. Often the root of this problem lies in the parents of the children. The parents make the most crucial link in a childs proper education. If my mother had not taken such an interest in my education, who knows where I'd be. Probably flipping burgers while I invent the next incredible music devise, and not knowing how to translate that into any thing practical. >3. You can't teach anyone anything, but you CAN provide an environment where >people may learn. Again, this starts with the parents. And since the government has taken authority in this area, we are limited in our options altogether, because, again, they don't want to bother with it unless it benefits themselves personally. >4. Many experiments in education have been tried this century. Some >remarkable results have been achieved by innovative thinkers who've run >schools in ground breaking ways. Conversely, some experiments have gone >disastrously wrong. In England, within the last thirty to forty years, one >London Borough school, staffed by mainly left wing teachers, was allowed to >throw out its curriculum and let the students do whatever they liked. This >was allowed on the grounds that children WOULD want to learn and would find >their own preferred learning styles naturally. What actually happened was >anarchy. Tough kids ran the school like gangsters, the teachers didn't >attempt to provide a learning environment; kids spent time shooting at cans >with air pistols, hanging around smoking and playing football all day. >Absenteeism was at a record high. Very few could read or write by the time >the Education Authority finally stepped in in an attempt to get it back on track. Discipline was lacking. >Another school in the north of England did a similar thing, but in a structured way. >Children had to attend 'classes,' but what and how they >learned was largely up to them. The kids loved it and came in early and >stayed late voluntarily. Like minded teachers worked with the kids to >provide a nurturing environment, and it had spectacular results. >Regrettably, when the head teacher, who's brainchild this was, retired, no >one stepped in to carry on the good work, and the school reverted to a more >traditional style. Rules beget selfish goals or goodie-two-shoes as well as order. Lack of rules begets anarchy. Principles beget wisdom and hapiness. Concern begets action. (Proper) Discipline begets self-worth. >5. Parents should take more responsibility for their children's education >and upbringing. Many couples want children, but don't know what to do with >them after they're past the first couple of years. So, they expect school >to educate them, they don't take part in school activities, they don't take >an interest in their children's school work, they don't go to parent's >evenings, they let their children roam the streets at night because it's the >easy option. They don't instill good manners (note, I didn't say TEACH them >good manners), respect for others or any 'civilized' values. Then they >throw their hands up in despair and say they can't understand why their kids >get in trouble at school for disrupting classes, fighting, damaging school >property, etc. and when they also get in trouble with the law. Yep! Exactly! I believe this bad trait in our societies started when Dr. Spock encouraged parents to not be so strict, especially after the way-to-rigid '50's. The pendulum keeps on swinging. The question is, Will it swing too far this time and fall off it's pivot? Will we have another fall of the 'Roman Empire?' I'm guessing, 'yes.' >6. Acceptable behaviour begins to be instilled as soon as a child is born, >as is unacceptable behaviour. Boys whose fathers beat their mothers often >beat their own wives when they eventually get married. The victim becomes the perpetrator. A common and unfortunate occurance. >How can you expect a >child to have respect for its fellow pupils and teachers if its own parents >fight and also verbally, physically or mentally abuse the child itself? But >if your parents DO spend time with you, get involved with school >activities, treat others with respect you're more likely to grow up with the >same values yourself. Children copy their parents much more than they realize. >I say 'more likely' because if you live in a poor >area, peer pressure can easily override your parents' values and children >from 'good homes' can go off the rails. Sad but true. And poverty (or whatever the case) doesn't necessarily ensure failure. A very good example: Whoopie Goldberg. >I could go on ...... and on, and on, but I won't. This is a complex subject >and there are no easy answers to society's problems, whether it's education, >crime, housing or health care. I wish there were. But if you're unhappy >about your 'the system,' get involved. Get yourself elected and DO >SOMETHING ABOUT IT! I am. More than you would think. But you wouldn't want to hear about it; it has to do with my religion. I don't believe the answer lies in man at all. Rather, God has a government that will soon wipe out all of our problems. But I won't go into it so as to start a 'holy war,' if you will. JAMac - (Dennis S. Alexander) www.symmetry.3000.com/dennisalexander www.geocities.com/hotsprings/2717 dalexander@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 23:33:35 +1000 From: Paul Baily Subject: Re: Alloy: eduction etc. (hint) uh guys, great thread, very well thought out and articulated by all ...but we /are/ about done with it aren't we? (read: take it offline please.) thanks in advance, Paul. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:12:29 -0800 From: Eclipse Subject: Re: Alloy: eduction [long] crackers@hwcn.org wrote: > > In article <199711291048.FAA14703@jane.smoe.org>, you wrote: > > >It's not like homeschoolers live in some kind of bubble. They usually > >are more aware of the greater problems of the world than those in > >school. > ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ > > Keep in mind a pupil is only as good as it's teacher. And for a great many > people who choose to homeschool their children it is not a case of > "I know more about math, science, english, geography, and history than > the teachers in the schools so I'm better qualified to teach my children" > but a case of "the schools represent a social value system that is in > conflict with my beliefs and I don't want by children being corrupted > by it." Ouch... Okay, let me make this really clear. I'm talking about a specific range of homeschooling styles, most directly related to what is known as unschooling. Not sending one's child to school as opposed to sending one's child to school isn't of course necessarily good or bad in itself, it's what you do with it and it's -intimately- tied in with the home atmosphere. Don't get me wrong, for your average good parents and open minded people, simply getting kids away from the time sink of school, the closed views, violence on whatever scale, anti-learning anti-freedom attitudes, etc and not doing anything else at all can be good. It's been done, although never for long because after a while the kids/parents inevitably start DOING things. I also wasn't talking about the "I know more about math, science, etc.." people in particular. See my comments about the parents not having to know particularly much about whatever the child is interested, and about parent AND child being the teacher(s). The idea, actually, is that the pupil IS the teacher. I can also remember lots and lots of people who when I said that I homeschooled replied, "Oh, you mean your mother teaches you?" (some of them didn't ask, but simply stated it.. "Oh, your mother teaches you.") Not only is this assumption inherently sexist, it's also simply not true in my case. Well, technically it is true, because of COURSE I learn things from my mother. But it would seem rather unfair to pick her out without mentioning my father, all of my friends, internet people, teachers of classes, lots and lots and lots of books, the various pets I've grown up with, MYSELF, etc. Now my younger brother, also homeschooled, has been taught in a more traditional sense by my mother for many years. It's how he learns best, and has been a mutual choice by him and mom. As he's gotten older, he's been doing more and more on his own as well. It's these differences in styles that made me anxious about being specific. Perhaps I should be talking about unschooling instead of homeschooling though. The word "unschooling" and its various conotations bother some people, but it is more specific. > I know this because my father and stepmother are fanatical born again > christians. They are home schooling their adopted daughter because > they see public schools as cesspools of satanism and hope to isolate > their daughter from the evil, satanic influences of our society. > It'll be much easier for them to convince her that their religious > views are the only correct ones if they are the only religious views > she is exposed to. And while they are both intelligent and I do not > doubt my sister will be able to read, write, and perform mathematics > as well as anyone else. I fear that she will be completely unable to > function in a world outside that which they have provided for her. Yes, yes, I know many fanatical Christian and other religious homeschoolers. I'm very very biased about it (sorry) which is why I sort of conveniently excluded most really fanatic situations from my definition of a "healthy, free environment", which I've also been referring to (I mean, honestly, how free is an environment where someone else's religious beliefs are continually being shoved down your throat?) On the other hand, I'd feel uncomfortable as hell saying that those people don't have the right to raise their children as they see fit without some kind of very solid (scientific) evidence that anything they were doing was harmful. > This is also why many white-supremicists choose to home school. In > a world that is slowly becoming less tolerant towards intolerance > it'll be hard to isolate your children from different viewpoints. > For the neo-nazis this means the public schools will be giving their > children a message quite opposed to the message they're recieving at home. Personally, I have found public schooled children to be VERY intolerant, ESPECIALLY those in racially/culturally/nationality-ally (is that a word?)/etc mixed schools. And the age segregation in the schooling system is something I've always HATED PASSIONATELY. I'll never forget my public-schooled friend, a very close friend and usually quite tolerant, or at least good at acting like it, saying flatly that she wanted to kill all of the Bosnian people in the world because the ones at her school were annoying and didn't speak english correctly. Most private schoolers are more isolated than most.. I guess I'll say unschoolers, that I know. Probably my friend Billy Wimsatt would know more about the tolerance issue than I do. > More and more I feel we will see that home schooling isn't so much > a matter of being able to better teach our children mental skills, but > a means to isolate them from value systems we find objectional. > > CRACKERS > (Blinders from hell!!!!) I think that if parents want to brain-wash their kids, they'll do it, whether or not the kids are in school. What the parents do and do not do is the single biggest influence, in a general sense, over a kid's life. If they don't homeschool, they'll send their kids to private schools, religious schools, specially designed charter schools, etc. And what would the world be like without choices? I personally wouldn't mind isolating my kids, -when they're very young-, from intolerance, religious and racist (as it were) fanatics and closed mindedness in general, intense violence, hardcore drugs, experiencing lack of freedom in all its forms, views that are down on learning... It's still a hard call. Who am I to say that the things I think are unhealthy for my kids are better or worse than the things the religious fanatics think are unhealthy for their kids? Again, I don't entirely agree with the people who take their kids out of school to "teach them better mental skills." That is still something being done to the child, rather than the child actively guiding and participating in his/her own life. Although surprisingly, many people I know who started out like that eventually became unschoolers. Appreciate your comments. :) -- E(lipse ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V2 #270 ***************************