From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V2 #212 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Thursday, October 9 1997 Volume 02 : Number 212 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Alloy: Musical/art debate thing [dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexa] Re: Alloy: Musical philosophy [dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander)] Re: Alloy: Music: An Interpretation [dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexa] Alloy: uni? [Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP)] RE: Alloy:... [Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP)] RE: Alloy: Re: Art debate thing [Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt ] Alloy: about MSNBC [Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP)] Re: Alloy:... [Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP)] Alloy: lyrics,.. [Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP)] RE: Alloy: Resonation:Music of the Spher [Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (] Alloy: On lyrics and music; a deadbeat grad's i [Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.noki] Alloy: Memes [Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP)] RE: Re:Alloy: Resonation: Music of the S [Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (] RE: Alloy: Musical philosophy [Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Lo] RE: Alloy: Musical philosophy [Lem Bingley ] Re: Alloy: Resonation:Music of the Sphere [Lem Bingley ] Re: Alloy: Memes [Sean Cier ] Alloy: coffehouses and unis [Sam Rauch ] Re: Alloy:... [Sam Rauch ] Re: Alloy: What do we do? [Eclipse ] Alloy: Biographies [Lem Bingley ] Re: Alloy: What do we do? [Tim Dunn <113203.2623@compuserve.com>] Re: Alloy: Music: An Interpretation [Tim Dunn <113203.2623@compuserve.com] Re: Alloy: Music: An Interpretation [Tim Dunn <113203.2623@compuserve.com] Re: Alloy: Private Colleges & Education [Tim Dunn <113203.2623@compuserve] Alloy: uni? [Tim Dunn <113203.2623@compuserve.com>] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:57:06 -0600 From: dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander) Subject: Re: Alloy: Musical/art debate thing >Eclipse writes: > I'm an artist (though not a musician) . . . >. . . Here, here! The lady is so right! JAMac ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:57:44 -0600 From: dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander) Subject: Re: Alloy: Musical philosophy On Wed, 08 Oct 1997 14:20:03 +0100 Lem Bingley writes: >Following on from the recent debate instigated by Electrix.... >I can't decide if I made this up or heard it somewhere else, but anyway, >here's my two penn'orth on the subject of the meaning of music. >Strangely, TMDR's music is the most nearly immune to the over-play problem >as any that I've encountered. Certainly, everything else that I know of >with the same durability is orchestral, rather than pop/rock, in nature. >Perhaps it is something to do with the inherent complexity of the sound? TMDR's music often does not follow the format of pop but often incorporates modes of jazz and classical. And he won't use just one format. He'll use everyone that he can get his hands on. Doing things that people have forgotten about; using trombone when it wasn't popular, TR808's when it's cliche and twisting it with smooth swing. He's too experimental for just one mode. And yet collectively, perhapse because he does use everything, it comes out pop. It's the wide variety used thoroughly thru out that keeps it interesting. It's not like anything you've heard before, nor may ever again. JAMac ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:56:36 -0600 From: dalexander@juno.com (Dennis S. Alexander) Subject: Re: Alloy: Music: An Interpretation >>ljackson@nstar.net (Lee Jackson) writes: >>Sam, an artist RECEIVES the music. He is a receptacle to harmony,=20 >>sounds, music. This is more apparent if a person is a=20 >>composer/musicians. Having written music and improvised on my = >instrument,=20 >>I can honestly say that the sound comes from the beyond. > >Bravely said, and I agree. The old saying about letting the muse >enter oneself is very accurate - it's almost like channeling from the >ether into your computer. > I'd rather say that . . . whatever sound comes from the artist and that which moves the listener, is nothing more. It's only sound. What it contains, in a somewhat peculiar fashion, is the 'spirit' of the persons emotions (not in a spiritual sense). And quite often, that sound is also composed of the 'spirit' of others, ie:the programmers who created the synths, etc... And along with what electrix said, The difference between artistic and pop. Those two words are so dificult to define. I, for instance find great pleasure in such artists as Barry Manilow, Elvis Costello, Barbara Streisand, The Moody Blues, Rolling Stones, New Order, Art Of Noise, Tomita, REM, John Denver, Soul to Soul, Madonna, The Presidents Of The United States Of America and the aforementioned Bon Jovi. And I can find great distaste in all of the above artists as well (their works). Thomas Dolby, pop? Categorized, yes, in reality, not at all! And electrix, >>Well...judging from your "agreements," I should have left you out in the >>cold... huh, mate? nah! I just thought you might like a good sincere counter. In truth I deeply hate many of my dearest friends. It's the differences that make us so close. We love to experiment on each other so that we can all grow. "A friend is someone who knows everything about you, but still likes you anyway." JAMac ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:13:41 +0200 From: Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP) Subject: Alloy: uni? Woops,...little angry there, aren't we? Take it easy pal,...I'm a working class, non-priviliged, un-smug, female, who went to uni despite the fact that most of my class-mates didn't, I'm most certainly not in a lucrative job, it ain't anything to do with sales. I can even have a convo about philosophy, (sort of)! And I can ABSOLUTLEY guarantee that I'm not the intellectual-deadbeat-type. (Hell, I'm probably no where near intellectual!) It seems daft, though, that just because my father is a truck driver, that makes it okay for me to be a university graduate! Don't paint us all with the same brush,...there's idiots who are only out for themselves everywhere you go, regardless of what social group or place you find yourself in! Uni is like anything else,..it depends what you make of it,...and for me, it was the place I learned the language that got me to scandinavia, got me a job and a wonderful husband,.. (though I have to admit, the inability to talk to my in-laws would have been an advantage) And on the other hand, I still think my dad is a very intelligent, philosophical, and very musically gifted. He can't read a note of music, and he left school at 15. What's my point? This just goes to show that smart people are smart and idiots are idiots, however much they study. Having a degree doesn't prove you're either, but for some of us, it's the only place we can learn what we want to learn, and get a little push in order to grow? Nothing wrong with that! Try and get away from the stereotypes there! We're all the same in here, and I think we're having fun! take care! Lissu ---------- From: alloy To: INTERNET:alloy@smoe.org Subject: Re: Alloy: Music: An Interpretation Date: 08. October 1997 15:04 Precedence: bulk I would like to disagree most strongly with the theory that this 'reeks of university coffee-house' conversation. Students are in my opinion the worst offenders - they have all the opportunities to better themselves, yet because they are for the most part smug middle-class intellectual dead-beats who are only at uni because it is customary upon completion at school, or because they know it's the only way to get that lucrative sales post, their crime in wasting the chances given them (and vast amounts of taxpayers' money) is so much worse than those who are not brouhgt up in such a privileged environment. Only a tiny fraction of students would be capable of having a conversation about philosophy, art or aesthetics, and worse still, even fewer would be interested in the mental gymnastics necessary. Universities are as culturally dead as any tacky nightclub, and unfortunately they are the breeding ground for our future leaders. Poor world. So yes that does rather diminish the value of your point. Perhaps if you are not interested in the wider issues surrounding music you could skip these posts? You would not be alone. the_copse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:20:13 +0200 From: Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP) Subject: RE: Alloy:... Oh , they're just having fun,...it's good to clear the air! Maybe it's the time of the month for the boys? yours respectfully and awf'ly cheekily, Lissu ---------- From: alloy To: alloy Subject: Alloy:... Date: 08. October 1997 16:48 I would just like to say that I've been hitting D on most Alloy posts for 2 days now. You guys are getting too rude and argumentative about a subject that shouldn't provoke anyone. -- Elaine Linstruth Palmdale, CA (USA) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:17:16 +0200 From: Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP) Subject: RE: Alloy: Re: Art debate thing >My views, ideas, I believe...will take some time for people to >assimilate. >electrix ----------------------------------------------------------------- I am Electrix of the Borg,...you will be assimilated! ARRGGHHH! (heh heh,) puss och kram, Lissu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:29:05 +0200 From: Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP) Subject: Alloy: about MSNBC I simply loved what our respected pres. had to say on MSNBC about Beatnik, and his ideas about breaking away from record companies controlling and stifling the production of artists. I really understand that,...there is virtually no market for the kind of music I produce with my friends here in Finland, which limits our audience terribly,..(Finnish Tango and Boy Groups seems to be about all that sells here, and only a tiny handful of really original music thrives here.) We are forced to try and get our music heard abroad,...not easy with our financial restrictions,....this goes a long way to explaining why I'm still working in a big multinational, stressing enough for it to affect my health, instead of having time to do more music, or to combine it with work somehow. And yes,....as soon as I can afford it,..I'm going right out into the net to buy all the beatnik & rmf tools n stuff that I can get,...I really agree with TMDR's philosopy... Did anyone see this interview? I think it's on the Net,.. yours melodically, Lissu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:35:21 +0200 From: Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP) Subject: Re: Alloy:... frankly, (oops,...sorry Frank!) I think anything that gets us talking and think this much can't be all bad! big hugs, Lissu ---------- From: alloy To: alloy Subject: Re: Alloy:... Date: 08. October 1997 22:20 Elaine Linstruth wrote: > > I would just like to say that I've been hitting D on most Alloy posts for > 2 days now. You guys are getting too rude and argumentative about a > subject that shouldn't provoke anyone. Point taken...is anyone else out there in Alloyland offended by the recent conversations? I realize this list reaches a lot of people, and if this is really bothering a bunch of them, maybe the other people (besides me) who have been participating in the discussions could find another means of doing it... (just a pleasant diplomatic suggestion and request for input, I'm not sayint we should or shouldn't do anything. :) ) I for one find it enjoyable, and don't think anything anyone's said has been really rude, but that could well be my flawed perception. Alloyites? What do you all think...? Sincerely, E(lipse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:35:17 +0200 From: Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP) Subject: Alloy: lyrics,.. >However, I never like to be left hanging. When an artist deliberately >makes the lyrics obtuse, I would like to know what he means by his >work. Otherwise, who is to know whether the lyrics are nonsense lyrics >not to be analyzed as classic Yes (the band) indulged in earlier days. >Of course, it could be a door to psychological evaluation...but, I think >there are enough evaluation procedures going around... >Enjoy the thunder...(actually, I hope you did -- past tense and day) >electrix Beg to disagree! I particulary love what the singer Seal had to say about this, and his answer to the question why he didn't put even the lyrics in his album: -------------- "Well, the answer to that is that quite often, my songs mean one thing to me and another to the listener. But that's OK because I think it's the general vibe of what I'm saying is important and not the exact literal translation. How many times have you fallen in love with a lyric that you thought went "Show me a day with Hilda Ogden and I'll despair" only to find that it went " Show me a way to solve your problems and I'll be there"? I guess what I'm saying is that the song is always larger in the listeners mind because with it they attach imagery which is relative to their own personal experience. So it is your preconception of what I'm saying rather than what I actually say that is the key." -------------- I think that was nicely put! What I DO believe is that Dolby's music is a little deeper and more personal, precisely because he hasn't bowed to the pressure to conform to a stereotype, and seems to have stayed true to his own aims in music. That's why I feel that even his oldest tracks still have a freshness about them. (and I won't deny that we've sat in the studio, and said "wow" ten time in a row at the way the music is mixed, the layers in it, the imagination in the arrangements,...we did this with PULP CULTURE a bit back, and sat back in awe,...he's a musician for musicians as well,...like a good film, there always seems to be some detail I've missed in his music, no matter how many times I listen to it.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:39:31 +0200 From: Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP) Subject: RE: Alloy: Resonation:Music of the Spher >Since I have managed to juggle a few peoples reality of music. I thought >I might end my view with an upsetting reality that most of my friends >seem to walk away and as soon have me dismissed. I am immediately >certified insane. >Nothing is too sacred for me in the exploration and discovery of music. >Atoms are in constant vibration. >Vibrations emit waves of sound >Some frequencies seem to mate with each other, >others tend to cancel some, >yet others tend to upset. >The human cells are made up of molecules >Molecules are made up of atoms >Each organ in our body, thus, vibrate at its own frequency. >Thus we are emitting sound. >Thus our ears ARE emitting sounds. >Thus we seek the most comfortable and reinforcing frequencies to >satisfy our pleasure senses and Chakras. >Thus we resonate to certain sounds. >Thus we have Music of the Spheres. >Celestial bodies vibrate, and emit sounds (documented by NASA's Voyager >sonic samples) >We live in a sea of silent sounds intermingling with each other. >Inaudible sounds. >The music we listen to sets the pace of its activity. >electrix >Humbly tendered to Apollo Wow,..like,...does your brain ever hurt? Big Kiss! Lissu the deadbeat. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:33:36 +0200 From: Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP) Subject: Alloy: On lyrics and music; a deadbeat grad's i Okay, I couldn't resist it,....here comes my finmark's worth, I think of music as being like poetry,....right now, reading all these=20 mails, I feel like I'm right back in school in the english lit. class, where=20 everybody is struggling to understand the deeper meanings behind some text or another. I remember being pretty sure, back then too, that Wordsworth or say Keats= ,=20 for all his magic, didn't read into all the meanings in his poetry when h= e=20 wrote it,.. and that I'm sure that a lot of the meanings that we found in there were not intended by the author. Sometimes when someone pours out a lot of feeling onto paper, or into a=20 song, there can be meanings that are personal to them at that point in time, that can be har= der=20 for us to see from our outside standpoint, but we so often see a lot of meaning that just is= n't=20 there,..... and lets face it, we can hardly be objective about a good song or poem,=20 because if it's good, it makes us feel, makes us have an emotive response,.. ("whether it be pass the kleenex or pass the bucket!") So to conclude, I say, it's nice to discuss meanings behind Thomas' songs= , sure we should do it,..but seeing that they all mean different things to=20 each of us, coloured by when we first heard them, what we think of when we hear them,= =20 etc. etc., I agree with the others who said that nobody has a right or wrong answer. Music itself means different things to different people,...some of us are= =20 more deeply affected by it than others. (BTW,...did someone say Finnish can be another official alloy language.=20 English is my mother tongue, but I suppose both me and Juha over in sweden can speak Finnish &= =20 Swedish,...does two speakers constitute a language group round here? (No siis, mit=E4 mielt=E4 olet siit=E4, Juha? Suomea olemaan alloy:in kol= mas=20 virallinen kieli? Mutta en osa sit=E4 t=E4ydellisesti,...kanske svenska =E4r lite b=E4ttre,= men de kan=20 vara at jag kan inte den har b=E4ttre =E4n Finska!) No niin,... hei hei, Lissu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 10:09:38 +0200 From: Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP) Subject: Alloy: Memes > Perhaps it is something to do with the inherent complexity of the sound? >Music is a primal language and an amazing tool. I have a friend who is >convinced that she has to buy a Volkswagen because she felt "specifically >targeted" by the use of Trio's "Da Da Da" in their recent commercial >This is kind of scary, but I was having the exact same discussion with some >friends of mine a few weeks ago. The damn ad REALLY MAKES ME WANT TO BUY A >VOLKSWAGEN, even though I can't justify that desire rationally (and won't be >following through on the urge, even though I'm in the market right now). No >other ad in recent memory has had that kind of effect on me. >campaign. They must have put a really good meme or two in that ad! Have you read anything about memetics? It's the idea that ideas, even melodies, can be replicated just like genes & viruses,...you can catch an advert just like a cold. Here's one good quotation below,...get in touch if you'd like some web links to this stuff,.. "MEME: (pron. "meem") A contagious information pattern that replicates by symbiotically infecting human minds and altering behavior, causing them to propagate the pattern. (Term coined by Dawkins, by analogy with "gene".) Individual slogans, catch-phrases, melodies, icons, inventions, and fashions are typical memes. An idea or information patter is not a meme until it causes someone to replicate it, to repeat it to someone else. All transmitted knowledge is memetic." (Wheelis, quoted in Hofstadter) So in other words, a computer program isn't a meme, (it's usually a useful, purposeful info pattern,) but an advert is a meme:(the advert-meme isn't useful to you, just the people marketing a product, I guess),.. my favourite examples of memes are fads like hoola-hoops or deely-boppers,..I mean, how else would they market things like that? yours with hugs, Lissu the deadbeat! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 10:09:46 +0200 From: Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP) Subject: RE: Re:Alloy: Resonation: Music of the S >Does this mean I've got musical bollocks then? >Slarviballsee Must have,....can you get some kind of ointment for that? Kiss&hug, Lissu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 10:09:55 +0200 From: Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP) Subject: RE: Alloy: Musical philosophy >It's intriguing that things that remind us of childhood on an instinctive >level are popular in adulthood - it's generally accepted that this is why >many people find comfort in sweet, fatty foods (because they are >remeniscent of the high-calorific make-up of mother's milk); why many men >are sexually focused on breasts; and I'm sure there are other examples - >cat's are supposed to like being stroked because it reminds them of their >mother's tongue on their fur. Do I take it you're a boob man rather than a leg man, Lem? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 11:34:06 +0100 From: Lem Bingley Subject: RE: Alloy: Musical philosophy At 10:09 9/10/97 +0200, Lissu wrote: > > >Do I take it you're a boob man rather than a leg man, Lem? Oh, boobs, deffo - bigger the better. Can't get enough of 'em, me ;-) How about yourself Lissu? Butt or pecs? On the subject of the musical/brain/return to childhood theory I'd just like to wave a white flag to E(lipse and Sean and give up. I know naff all about the workings of the brain and even less about Freud, I admit it. Your humble servant, Lem. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 11:05:14 +0100 From: Lem Bingley Subject: Re: Alloy: Resonation:Music of the Sphere At 15:30 8/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >> >> At 23:36 7/10/97 -0700, Mr Electro wrote: >> >Atoms are in constant vibration. >> >Vibrations emit waves of sound Then I wrote: >> Electrix, I love the sentiment, but atomic vibrations don't qualify as >> sound since they don't propagate. A good job really, otherwise we'd all be >> deafened the whole time from the beat frequencies of all those screaming >> elements. Then Electrix wrote: >Of course they don't man!...we would be inundated with sounds wouldn't >we.? >Fact: ANY vibrating body is emmitting a sound, pitch, tone, what have >you. Some are audible and some are inaudible as in dog's whistle. What >prevents us from hearing the inaudibles is the limitation of our hearing >range. Fair enough, but the reason we can't hear atoms is that their vibrations don't influence other atoms, hence no progagation, hence you don't hear them. An atom on its own can't make a sound anyway, because it can't put out enough energy, but collectively a lump of matter would be able to muster enough energy. The fact that a single atom's potential for sound would be out of our hearing range is immaterial - we'd be able to hear some of the beat frequencies (as a musician, I assume you know that a beat frequency is the difference between two pure frequencies, and that it allows two different inaudible ultrasonic notes to create a third audible note). Since the atoms would be vibrating at basically random frequencies, many of the beat frequencies would be in the audible range. My guess is that if atoms *could* make sounds, we'd be immersed in a constant sea of white noise that would get noticeably quieter if you ventured to the top of a tower where there was less matter in earshot. Anyway, that's speculation because atoms don't make sounds. > >Fact: Inaudible sounds deriving from a vibration can be amplified, at >minimum synthesized, to hearing range. I think the word you're looking for is mixed - mixed with a pure audible tone you'd be able to hear any content in an inaudible message. > >Fact: Any vibration coming from a body positioned next to it, will >influence that body, regardless of whether it is heard or not...we have >here the basic principles of ELF and LEF. I have no idea what ELF and LEF are, but this is pure hokum. If a vacuum is placed between bodies they can only effect each other electromagnetically, not acoustically. And what separates atoms? Vacuum. > >Thus, the word "propagation" hinges on our ability to hear the >condition. But it does not account for the inaudible. No, propagation means that energy is passed from one body to another - the basic principle on which sound is based. I didn't want to turn this into an argument, but hey, you took me up on one of the few subjects where I do actually know what I'm talking about, as I have a PhD in the physics of sound propagation. And since I wasted four years of my life getting it, I do feel I should be able to win the odd argument :-) Lem ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:24:23 +0200 From: Louise.Ulfstedt@nmp.nokia.com (Ulfstedt Louise NMP) Subject: RE: Alloy: Musical philosophy Both, sorry to say, Lem me dear, ...hastly back to the frey,... Lissu the naughty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 10:47:02 -0400 From: Sean Cier Subject: Re: Alloy: Resonation:Music of the Sphere Lem Bingley wrote: > I didn't want to turn this into an argument, but hey, you took me > up on one of the few subjects where I do actually know what I'm > talking about, as I have a PhD in the physics of sound propagation. E(lipse wrote: [regarding dolphin communication] > Heeey, wait just a minute, that's -my- field you're talking about > there! Dang, Electrix, you and I should be more careful where we tread, there be uncounted experts lurking around corners! Regarding dolphins, E(lipse, I admit I'm way out of my depth (NPI), but I was speaking of wild dolphin communication. Unfortunately, my (sole?) source isn't handy, so I can't present any decent case for my claims at the moment (maybe I'll mail you in a few weeks when I get my hands on it again). The studies you quoted do sound rather fascinating, though... maybe if I ever have much free time, I'll have to look up that paper. This brings up another point that may have already been touched on in one of the impromptu surveys, but the group has expanded so that maybe now is a good time to bring it up. Obviously there's a good deal of diversity of fields here... what _is_ everybody doing with their lives, and what do you hope to be doing eventually? I'll start, of course; I'm a physicist and computer scientist, mainly into graphics. Hopefully I'll be going into film visual effects when I graduate this spring, depending on where I can swing a job. I'd love to be doing graphics work for a while, but I'd also be keen on doing, say, simulation work for nanotechnology if that industry springs up to the point where production is actually _possible_ any time soon... Well, any takers? - -spc - -- /- Sean Cier -\ ( If I had'n'a shot poor Delia, I'd'a had her for my wife; Delia's gone ) \- http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~scier -/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 10:56:41 -0400 From: Sean Cier Subject: Re: Alloy: Memes Lissu wrote: > Have you read anything about memetics? It's the idea that ideas, even > melodies, can be replicated just like genes & viruses,...you can catch an > advert just like a cold. Uh-oh... discussions on memetics invariably result in somebody bringing up religion. But since I just did, nobody else has to, right? Right? Really, though, memes are great things to think about, and discussing them has the interesting property of sometimes purging the worse ones. Anybody ever read Neal Stephenson's _Snow_Crash_? Now _there's_ a novel that took the idea quite a ways in a rather literal direction... > my favourite examples of memes are fads like hoola-hoops or > deely-boppers And memetics ;-) - -spc - -- /- Sean Cier -\ ( If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes ) \- http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~scier -/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 10:02:57 -0500 From: Sam Rauch Subject: Alloy: coffehouses and unis I think the point I was trying to make was that electrix's post on what music is, does and who it belongs to seemed to be getting overly analytical. Which is why I disagreed with it, and the reason I thought it "reeked of uni coffehouse" rhetoric. Meaning, I could picture a couple of people sitting in a coffehouse going back and forth about this sort of thing probably because that's what they think they're supposed to be doing. And again, I still feel that music is a collection of feelings, emotions, brainwaves (er, most of the time brainwaves :-) ) and a little mystery on the part of the author. But what you make of it is what YOU make of it. I can play music for my fiance that moves me from my innards, and she keeps on doing whatever it was she was doing at the time. Don't get me wrong, she appreciates music and the arts, but whatever it is I'm feeling for this particular song, she ain't feelin' it, brother. So to me, that shoots down the theory that there is any deeper message in the music before it arrives in MY ears. I think it an insult of a person I'm deeply close to suggest that she doesn't "get it", or that she's not tuned into the archetypes of the message. It's all perceptions. And I do fancy myself a bit of a musician, mind you. Although some folks might disagree with drumming as music. I'm still in the early stages, mind you, but I definitely FEEL music - and I attribute it to myself and my perceptions. I would also attribute my extremely wide taste in music to my perceptions. Mine, mine, mine! Sam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 10:13:33 -0500 From: Sam Rauch Subject: Re: Alloy:... > > > > I would just like to say that I've been hitting D on most Alloy posts for > > 2 days now. You guys are getting too rude and argumentative about a > > subject that shouldn't provoke anyone. > > Geez... I would just like to go on the record as saying I may seem like a newcomer to quite a few of you, and that's because I don't post that often, I just read (and play with Beatnik). If I don't read, I delete, but I certainly don't feel the need to tell the list that I'm deleting the posts or that I don't think the current topic is interesting. Hey, you'll get a strong index finger from pushing the button so often!! Please don't be offended - it's just a joke. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 11:10:42 -0700 From: Eclipse Subject: Re: Alloy: What do we do? Sean Cier wrote: ... > This brings up another point that may have already been touched on in > one of the impromptu surveys, but the group has expanded so that maybe > now is a good time to bring it up. Obviously there's a good deal of > diversity of fields here... what _is_ everybody doing with their lives, > and what do you hope to be doing eventually? > > I'll start, of course; I'm a physicist and computer scientist, mainly > into graphics. Hopefully I'll be going into film visual effects when I > graduate this spring, depending on where I can swing a job. I'd love to > be doing graphics work for a while, but I'd also be keen on doing, say, > simulation work for nanotechnology if that industry springs up to the > point where production is actually _possible_ any time soon... > > Well, any takers? > > -spc Oooh, that's pretty neat. Well, I'm lots of things, but primarily I'm going into dolphin communications studies (at the moment I'm just a student, so it'll be a while before you see me on the cover of National Geographic.. ;-) )... - -Eventually- I hope to have my own research team (including some linguistis, psychologists, cetaologists & marine biologists, neurologists, musicians, and at least one lawyer (don't ask)), along side my lifemate and research partner Turquoise (no, it's not his real name), and do work with wild bottlenose dolphins, probably with an intermediary "language", computers, and musical instruments. This would pick up on work done by virtually everyone who has done dolphin work, from what Denise Herzing has learned about wild dolphin studies, what Dr. Herman has learned about dolphins' linguistic abilities, and what Jim Nollman has learned about musical communication with wild dolphins (sidenote: Jim Nollman totally rocks!).. and also those two Russian guys' work, if I can ever get a chance to read it. But again, this is a looong time in coming, and lots could happen between now and then. But it's what I'm ultimately working towards. I'm also a bit of a writer and painter, and wouldn't mind getting some of my stuff published somewhere someday. Also, as I've probably pushily made overly-clear (sorry!) I have very strong feelings about education and schooling--my parents took me out of school after 5th grade, and I started doing this whole self-directed learning thing ("unschooling")--and I intend to do something with them when I get the chance. (ambitious? me?) As to how I'm going to earn a living (no, there's no opportunity in dolphin communication studies. No, most upstart artists and writers don't make much money. And no, there's not much in education, especially if you're going to be struggling against the system part-time), that's kind of up in the air. I'm not half bad with computers, and have a special talent for learning foreign languages.... So there, that's more about me than I'm sure you wanted to know (there's more on my webpage! http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/2082/index.html)... anyone else want to take a go now? - -- E(lipse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 18:48:13 +0100 From: Lem Bingley Subject: Alloy: Biographies Sean wrote: >Obviously there's a good deal of >diversity of fields here... what _is_ everybody doing with their lives, >and what do you hope to be doing eventually? We've covered a bit of this already, but anyone keen to know about me (heaven knows why) can do so at http://www.computerwire.com/sf/people.htm Right now I'm an editor. Eventually I hope to become an immortal all-knowing super-being. Lem PS. Sean, if you want to get into digital post-production/effects then you might want to consider looking at what's on offer in London - there's quite a few such firms here in Soho, and there might be a slightly better chance of finding a spot compared to L.A. or wherever. Not that I'm an expert. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:03:19 -0400 From: Tim Dunn <113203.2623@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Alloy: What do we do? Interesting. At the moment I'm in between stages in the boring journey of life. I have= two job interviews coming up - one with the British Transport Police, and= one with a computer products company. I'm really torn between the two, wi= th a whole range of reasons why. I feel the police would be a better choice personally and professionally, as I feel I need a career that I feel matters, and I hate the careerism and capitalism and pointlessness of business and commerce. I feel that having kept the streets clean and safe= for another day would be a much more useful way of spending my time than selling some boring useless software for someone to make money with. However, a career with the police would tie me down to this country indefinitely, and while this does not bother me, certain members of the list will know that I have very pressing reasons to be more mobile - and therefore to enter a field that is truly international (such as scum-sucking capitalism) would be more geared towards wherever I might be= forced to wind up. Also I am not sure what kind of people I will encounte= r in the police. Everyone has the stereotype image of the thick copper, and= it is undoubtedly true to some extent. However, as my views on the averag= e graduate are well known, sales may not be much better. Of course, what I'd really like to do would be to concentrate on my music= =2E My producer says I really ought to think about doing that, but it's obviously not a realistic option, and I've certainly never seriously considered it. As a point of interest, my brother has just signed a deal to have his fir= st book of poems published by OUP. He is 24. Bastard!! the_copse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:03:17 -0400 From: Tim Dunn <113203.2623@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Alloy: Music: An Interpretation El Franco I just am - all the time - sorry. the_copse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:03:16 -0400 From: Tim Dunn <113203.2623@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Alloy: Music: An Interpretation Sorry, but I really honestly have just finished four long years at York, recognised as the 6th best university in the country, in a music dept judged to be the 2nd best in the country, so yes I do have some little experience! And as I am currently working in the Student Awards section a= t County Council I have further insight from that angle, and know just how willing students are to waste your money, and blame others for their own stupidity. Granted, not everyone is the same, and yes, everyone deserves the chance = to better their opportunities, but speaking from my own experiences, and the= large number of people I encountered in all different areas of the university, I stand by everything I say. Intellectual prowess is now far less important than employability, and this has the knock-on effect of reducing the emphasis on old-fashioned all-round education. Very few students have the ability to converse and debate on a wide range of subjects, they do not attend the theatre, poetry readings, musical performances of any type, and worst of all, they do not read. How depressing to see the large number of Suns and Mirrors stocked by our Uni= on shop. = In this age where degrees are ten-a-penny and any college of FE can transform itself overnight, it is impossible to deny that degrees are bei= ng debased. When there is no competition to obtain a place, (do you remember= when Teeside University was paying students to attend?) it is so much easier for people to take it for granted, and not make the most of the opportunities of which they should avail themselves. I'm sorry if I come across as a 'bloody students' local-type character, but I assure you I speak with honesty and experience. Perhaps your institution attracts a higher calibre of academic than mine did, in which case you are very fortunate. = Yours, the_copse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:45:19 -0400 From: Tim Dunn <113203.2623@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Alloy: Private Colleges & Education When talking about private Colleges and Universities, I take it you're talking about those on the other side of the Pond from us. The only priva= te university with which I am familiar here is Buckingham - a fate not to be= wished on your worst enemies, apparently! I'd be interested to know what kind of an education system you'd recommen= d instead of what we have now. I was fortunate enough to be taken on by a couple of top-notch public schools who could afford to pay for the best teachers, extra-curriculars etc etc. The emphasis was very much on disciplined learning at an early age, combined with encouragement to express freely, and work from enthusiasm, within correct frameworks. This= basis is certainly lacking now, and the letters I receive at work are jus= t one symptom of this. Teachers applying for a PGCE in "Secondery Education= " and engineers applying for degrees in "Idustrail Design" are not the half= of it! Perhaps what we need is not a middle ground between the hard-right= back-to-basics ideals and the dreamy hippy theories of the sixties and seventies, but a system consisting of equal parts of the two, wherein the= students receive the maximum breadth of experience, and each part of the education can be framed by aspects of the other. Well, just a thought............. the_copse the_copse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:45:20 -0400 From: Tim Dunn <113203.2623@compuserve.com> Subject: Alloy: uni? Dear Lissu, yeah yeah yeah, didn't I say there were exceptions, who are the kind of people on the list? I clearly have no intention of tarring everyone with the same brush. (Just the majority.) I agree with you entirely - my step-father also left school with one o-level (too much train-spotting and cricket-playing), and is an excellen= t husband, father, civil servant, and baritone. Perhaps he, along with mayb= e your father, although fulfilled and content as they are, would have benefitted from the modern education system's wider reach. It might even = be fair to say that they would deserve it more than the shallow creatures th= at I'm sure you encountered along the way just as I did. = the_copse ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V2 #212 ***************************