From: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org (alloy-digest) To: alloy-digest@smoe.org Subject: alloy-digest V2 #211 Reply-To: alloy@smoe.org Sender: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-alloy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "alloy-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. alloy-digest Thursday, October 9 1997 Volume 02 : Number 211 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Alloy: Re: Art debate thing [electrix ] Re: Alloy: Resonation: Music of the Spheres [electrix ] Re: Alloy: Colleges & Education [Eclipse ] Re: Alloy: Musical philosophy + dolphins [Eclipse ] Re: Alloy: Musical philosophy [RThurF@aol.com] Alloy: Party! [RThurF@aol.com] Re: Alloy: Of suitcases, coffee shops, and windpower... [electrix ] Re: Alloy:... [Frank ] Re: Re: Alloy: Musical philosophy [RThurF@aol.com] Alloy: off-topic funny thing [RThurF@aol.com] Re: Alloy: Re: Art debate thing [Eclipse ] Re: Alloy:... [Eclipse ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 16:02:39 -0700 From: electrix Subject: Alloy: Re: Art debate thing Eclipse wrote: > I'm an artist (though not a musician).. > While it's true that that "divine inspiration" can't be forced, only > invited, acknowledged and guided, I don't think this means that it comes > from "outside". On the contrary, I think that art necessarily comes > from within. It can be "triggered" by outside events in the same way > that emotions can, but it doesn't come from them. BOLD statement...whoever, I can see that it is from a person that hasn't taken the time to listen (no offense). The words "within/without" are very frequently used by yogis. What it entails is this: Where does the inside seizes to be the outside and vise-versa. We can stand from either side of the fence and describe it. It doesn't matter. The fact is - if you believe your body is the final doorstop to that which is in reality infinite, then, yes I must agree with you. However, I know that like our ears, our eyes have the WORST range of input. Seeing range amounts to one octave. Now, if we chop off a man's hands, we would see meat fall away. Magnify that same area and you would notice the holography of that hand still there. Eyes, like emotions,...can be deceiving. > > Also, I don't think there is a -single- "source"... in healthy people, > in day to day life, the mind and emotions and so on are integrated, and > I think in this case they are even more so. To use a now much-overused > word, there's a kind of synergy between them. From my experience, > creation is -usually- guided by the emotions, and shaped by the > intellect, but I wouldn't say there are necessarily any hard and fast > rules. Correcto mundo...can't deny that there is interplay among the existent and non-existent. However, my comment regarding the origin of an artistic product wasn't intended to be a focus of one "source." I ment to question what are the other potential source(s) of the manifestation of music. Since that isn't identifiable...then it is a mystery...whether coming from the inside or the outside. I certainly perceive it coming from the inside, but I am certainly not persuaded by my ego, that it comes totally from me --- the inside. Many times I found myself at the seat of my car and that "new" tune just "pops" into my head. I didn't call it. It came to me. It announced its presence, and like a fresh idea, it opens up new vistas. > Dreams aren't (in most people, that is) under conscious control either, > but most people tend to agree that they come from somewhere inside, not > some place way "out there"... Lucid dreaming would render the above statement flawed. And for those that never have experienced it...it DOES exist. > > The Navajos believed that works of art were partly "alive" because they > contained part of the soul of the artist that created them. I've always > particularly liked that idea, though I don't actually believe it (or > much anything else) I never knew this...something I will take a look into. > Regarding interpretations... Who was it that said art isn't "complete" > until it's been seen or listened to or read (etc) by someone? This > could of course include the artist, too. Good point. Although I usually present a one sided approach (especially when it is hard to be neutral in respect to gender)...I tend to be one to embrace existence as totally wholistic. Unfortunately, the English language is totally one sided in its expression. My views, ideas, I believe...will take some time for people to assimilate. electrix ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 16:18:12 -0700 From: electrix Subject: Re: Alloy: Resonation: Music of the Spheres Hargreaves Bill (Tel 0161 952 4494) wrote: > > Recently my friend electrix said (hmmm, this makes me think about when Gary > Numan(?) asked 'Are friends electric?' Mine is. But I digress):- > > >Since I have managed to juggle a few peoples reality of music. I thought > >I might end my view with an upsetting reality that most of my friends > >seem to walk away and as soon have me dismissed. > > >The human cells are made up of molecules > >Molecules are made up of atoms > >Each organ in our body, thus, vibrate at its own frequency. > >Thus we are emitting sound. > > >Thus we have Music of the Spheres. > > Does this mean I've got musical bollocks then? > Slarviballsee (ha,ha,ha....!!) You said it ol' laddy... can't wait to see the latest contraption developed to hear the way YOU sound!!! :-). So go ahead, flaunt it. You are a pop star whether you like it or not (remember Sly's "Everybody is a Star?"). Anyway, there is a theory going around that identifies the tone of your vibration according to your astrological sign. Mine is A#. Thomas Dolby's is A. So, Thomas..."Don't Get (Close to Me)." electrix electria ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:48:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Elaine Linstruth Subject: Alloy:... I would just like to say that I've been hitting D on most Alloy posts for 2 days now. You guys are getting too rude and argumentative about a subject that shouldn't provoke anyone. - -- Elaine Linstruth Palmdale, CA (USA) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 18:49:44 -0700 From: Eclipse Subject: Re: Alloy: Colleges & Education {Excuse me if this is a repost, have been having a few problems with the computer :) } Tim Dunn wrote: > > I would like to disagree most strongly with the theory that this 'reeks of > university coffee-house' conversation. Students are in my opinion the worst > offenders - they have all the opportunities to better themselves, yet > because they are for the most part smug middle-class intellectual > dead-beats who are only at uni because it is customary upon completion at > school, or because they know it's the only way to get that lucrative sales > post, their crime in wasting the chances given them (and vast amounts of > taxpayers' money) is so much worse than those who are not brouhgt up in > such a privileged environment. Only a tiny fraction of students would be > capable of having a conversation about philosophy, art or aesthetics, and > worse still, even fewer would be interested in the mental gymnastics > necessary. Universities are as culturally dead as any tacky nightclub, and > unfortunately they are the breeding ground for our future leaders. Poor > world. > > So yes that does rather diminish the value of your point. Perhaps if you > are not interested in the wider issues surrounding music you could skip > these posts? You would not be alone. > > the_copse Woah, now that's the sort of thing that's gauranteed to get a reaction from me. While it's true that many people only go to college because it's the common thing to do, and waste taxpayers' money and opportunities given to them, I don't think even most of the blame can be placed on those kids. 12 years in a culture and compulsory schooling system -designed- to train them not to think for themselves (and also paid for by taxpayer money), and you suddenly expect them to act intelligent after they get out of highschool? Yeah, right. Poor world indeed, but let's not forget where the problem comes from. It's amazing how many of them do heal. (If you want to take up education with me, be my guest, it's one of my favorite discussion/debate topics, and one I feel very strongly about.) Besides which, there are plenty of universities, most of them private and selective, where this kind of intellectual, philosophical entertainment is the norm, and many people fondly remember their college years for just that reason--they were allowed and encouraged to play with their intellects, with little else (jobs, house work, family members, etc) to get in the way...and their peers were doing it too, a community thing. Just because you didn't (apparently??) go to one of these schools, doesn't mean they don't exist. Also, there are plenty of highly intelligent people who don't go for this kind of artsy intellectual philosophy at all. There's nothing wrong with that. There are plenty of different -kinds- of intelligence, plenty of different kinds of people with different tastes and opinions and so on.. - -- E(lipse ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 18:48:58 -0700 From: Eclipse Subject: Re: Alloy: Musical philosophy + dolphins Sean Cier wrote: > I find this a fascinating tangent to the thread, primarily because it > seems to me (_not_ a phsychology expert by any stretch, mind you) a > neurological extension of Freudian phsychology, which I'd thought > long-since discredited. The brain is a wonderful and complex thing, a > bizarre mix of pure, flexible generality and tightly targeted instincts. > To suggest that there are `internal rewards' for returning to an infant > mentality seems unsupported to me, though. > > Why, then, do we find music so compelling? Humans _love_ to look for > patterns, in EVERYTHING. Music provides a wonderful medium in which to > find patterns, both those intentionally placed there by the artist and > subtler ones, either produced subconciously by the composer/performer or > simply mirages. And don't discount the fact that (instrumental) music > may just resemble language -- it most certainly does communicate, at > least on an emotional level, just like (well, probably much better than) > the tonal portion of English speech. My $0.02, at least. AFAIK, most of Freudian psychology -is- discredited. This seems more reasonable to me. Music can resemble language, and it's definitely one more way of fulfilling our desire to find patterns (which exists, perhaps, because of how our intelligence is necessarily structured).. besides a simple desire for stimulation. It does seem to have its own distinct part in the brain. > Unfortunately, as much as it seems to us that dolphins are intelligent, > research (such as projects intended to communicate with them) continues > to demonstrate the opposite; dolphin communication is probably more on a > par with our body language than with spoken/written language. > > -spc Heeey, wait just a minute, that's -my- field you're talking about there! What've you read? I think Markov and Ostrovskaya's work (what little I've seen) on whistle patterns in wild dolphins deserves a second look.. but regardless of whether they have a language of their own or not, their linguistic intelligence seems to surpass that of any creatures other than (perhaps) humans. Ever hear of Dr. Louis Herman? (-the- name in dolphin language studies... the whole field is a political mess, but all of that aside, Dr. Herman's science is rock solid) He's been with Kewalo Basin for about 30 years doing dolphin communications studies. His two dolphins now are Phoenix and Akeakamai. He made up "languages" (really, at this point, more like pidgins) for both of them. The languages and experiments in general did not allow for the dolphins to use the language, only to respond to it. Dr. Herman has been criticized for leaving that part out, but as he says, production and reception are distinct... besides which, reception is far easier to measure and quantify. (And he really did the first work in the field, so he started pretty much at the beginning) Phoenix has an audio language. (He refers to them as "languages", so I will continue to do so as well) It is composed of computer generated whistles. The sentence order is linear, and much as in english. "FRISBEE TAKE BALL" would be something like "Take the frisbee to the ball". Akeakamai has a sign language. It is signed by different trainers. It has also been demonstrated that she can understand it when used by people who've never used it before, and on television, and in abstract (two white hands with total dark background) on television, a not inconsiderable acheivement. The sentence order different too... "BALL FRISBEE TAKE" would be the equivilent of Phoenix's sentence, "Take the frisbee to the ball". This requires Ake to think of the sentence as a whole--she can't start off to the ball as soon as she sees ball, for example. All sentences so far have been in the imperative, commands to which the dolphins respond. The longest sentences are five words long, two nouns, the verb, and two modifiers. like "RIGHT FRISBEE LEFT SURFBOARD FETCH" ("take the surfboard on your left to the frisbee on your right") for Ake. Both dolphins do understand sentences that they have never heard before if made up with words that they know. Some interesting studies were done with Akeakamai, with sentences that didn't make sense, both linguistically, and practically. For example, "WATER WINDOW TAKE" would mean "Take the window to the water" (the "water" being a stationary hose held in place at the side of the tank)... this is obviously not a command that Akeakamai could carry out. She realized this, just by thinking about the sentence. She didn't swim over to the window and then realize that she couldn't move it. She thought about what was being asked of her in abstract, linguistic terms. This is not an inconsiderable accomplishment. In fact, understanding grammatical structure is something that's been proven in no other creatures save humans. Primates' comprehension of grammar is still up in the air, although it's generally accepted that they don't understand it very well if at all. Dr. Herman's studies are difficult to argue with though. This is just the very beginning of what we're learning about dolphins' capabilities. However, if you can give me any studies refuting the idea that dolphins' natural system of communication is not linguistically based, I will read them and be most appreciative. Good wild dolphin communication studies are few and far between at present. I would dearly like to read the rest of Markov & Ostrovskaya's work, but I can't read Russian yet. (Hey, Melissa..? ;) ) Anyone interested in all of this e-mail me personally, and go to your local university library and look for the 1984 "Cognition" Journal, which contains Dr. Herman's "Comprehension of Sentences by the Bottlenose Dolphin", a classic and an incredibly easy read (as far as scientific papers go).. Yours, -- E(lipse ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:03:56 -0400 (EDT) From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Re: Alloy: Musical philosophy In a message dated 10/8/97 9:57:08 AM, Lem wrote: <> There is something about his beautiful voice that seems to go straight to the middle of my brain & proceeds to do a real number on my emotional state & imagination. I can't narrow it down to one or two qualities because I can't even begin to figure out why this is. ??? Robin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:15:46 -0400 (EDT) From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Alloy: Party! Less than a week to the big day! Suzanne - shall I prepare the big pile of cupcakes, or have you beaten me to it? Robin ;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 18:28:21 -0700 From: electrix Subject: Re: Alloy: Of suitcases, coffee shops, and windpower... Paul Baily wrote: > "...and I do welcome the spontaneous adoption of "May the Cube be With > You" as a harmless and meaningless sign-off for mail postings here that > recently have been getting increasingly analytical and literate, much to > my amusement." Hey!!..I have been using it once in awhile haphazardly...but more so in the Tap Room. Of course, let's not forget...Star Wars has left an impression in the psyche of us all. > > To hop back to my example earlier and horribly paraphrase someone I can't > remember right now: sometimes a wet leaf is just a wet leaf. :) > > I guess the moral of the story is that your take on the story is never > going to be quite the same as that of the artist's. It provides a > starting point, but where you take it from there, and what you get out of > it is completely up to you. Yes...as E)lipse astutely mentioned...who is to say the work is completed until it reaches the listeners ears... to paraphrase. However, I never like to be left hanging. When an artist deliberately makes the lyrics obtuse, I would like to know what he means by his work. Otherwise, who is to know whether the lyrics are nonsense lyrics not to be analyzed as classic Yes (the band) indulged in earlier days. Of course, it could be a door to psychological evaluation...but, I think there are enough evaluation procedures going around... Enjoy the thunder...(actually, I hope you did -- past tense and day) electrix ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:04:26 -0400 (EDT) From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Alloy: Resonation: Music of the Spheres In a message dated 10/8/97 8:10:52 PM, electrix wrote: << there is a theory going around that identifies the tone of your vibration according to your astrological sign. Mine is A#. Thomas Dolby's is A. So, Thomas..."Don't Get (Close to Me)." >> Yikes! What's Gemini? Robin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 22:32:20 -0400 From: Sean Cier Subject: Re: Alloy: Music: An Interpretation Sean Cier wrote: > Maybe you should leave such > barbed generalities for situations where you actually know what > the hell you're talking about. Apologies for my tone (to all and sundry as well as Copse); it's just been one of those days, I suppose, and the broad accusation struck a nerve. I would still argue that good universities are yet fertile (and hardly fallow) ground for intellectual debate and thought, but certainly the mode of my retort was uncalled for. - -spc - -- /- Sean Cier -\ ( Yield, he told the silver triangle. Cough up arcane secret. ) \- http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~scier -/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 19:30:56 -0700 From: Frank Subject: Re: Alloy:... At 04:48 PM 10/8/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I would just like to say that I've been hitting D on most Alloy posts for >2 days now. You guys are getting too rude and argumentative about a >subject that shouldn't provoke anyone. > >-- >Elaine Linstruth Palmdale, CA (USA) > > I second that. It has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. Why not just email direct and not through Alloy. Elaine, I like and admire your sensibility. Frank My Web Sites http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/6745/tryagain.html http://members.tripod.com/~WheelerF/index.html Home (Page) Improvement!! Remember, I'm just a kid in the candy store. Little by little I'm getting there. Join me on the ride. El Franco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:56:58 -0400 (EDT) From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Alloy: Musical philosophy In a message dated 10/8/97 1:14:27 PM, Lem wrote: <> Hi Lem! :) Any established musical instrument that exists now has of course evolved into being, rather than being designed as such from the start, over a period of time. Stradivari was the most prolific experimental violin maker, from the late 1600's to mid-to-late1700's (about 200 years after the violin ancestors' supposed first emergence) - almost every violin, viola or cello he made was a departure in some way from the last, as he worked out his ideas of various proportions, air volume, rib height, arching, string length, plate thickness etc. Most of them, touched by his artist hands in their formation, turned out as spectacular examples of their design (which is why some of them still exist and are being played to this day). Now, for modern players who perform in huge halls and need their instruments to be very loud, Stradivari's old instruments & designs were altered yet again by other makers, with new neck angles & bridge heights to increase sound volume. These instruments are still evolving even today, as technicians and physicists develop new concepts, materials etc for increased volume and playability. (Strad still outranks them all in most people's eyes of course) So you're right, only from the opposite direction - the reason the violin, viola & cello have remained so very popular through the years since their approximate beginnings in the 14th century could well be because - when played by a great musician - they do seem to mimic human vocal inflections, thus drawing out emotion in the listener like few other instruments can. Look at David Munrow's "Instruments of the Middle Ages and Renaissance" for good info, LOTS of photos and woodcuts! Robin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:01:01 -0400 (EDT) From: RThurF@aol.com Subject: Alloy: off-topic funny thing My friend forwarded this to me. Please have a laugh at some poor idiot's expense. <<>Actual dialog of a former Wordperfect Customer Support employee: > >"Ridge Hall computer assistant; may I help you?" >"Yes, well, I'm having trouble with WordPerfect." >"What sort of trouble?" >"Well, I was just typing along, and all of a sudden the words went away." >"Went away?" >"They disappeared." >"Hmm. So what does your screen look like now?" >"Nothing." >"Nothing?" >"It's blank; it won't accept anything when I type." >"Are you still in WordPerfect, or did you get out?" >"How do I tell?" >"Can you see the C:\ prompt on the screen?" >"What's a sea-prompt?" >"Never mind. Can you move the cursor around on the screen?" >"There isn't any cursor: I told you, it won't accept anything I type." >"Does your monitor have a power indicator?" >"What's a monitor?" >"It's the thing with the screen on it that looks like a TV. Does it have a >little light that tells you when it's on?" >"I don't know." >"Well, then look on the back of the monitor and find where the power cord >goes into it. Can you see that?" >(pause) "Yes, I think so." >"Great! Follow the cord to the plug, and tell me if it's plugged into the >wall." >(pause) "Yes, it is." >"When you were behind the monitor, did you notice that there were two >cables plugged into the back of it, not just one?" >"No." >"Well, there are. I need you to look back there again and find the other >cable." >(pause) "Okay, here it is." >"Follow it for me, and tell me if it's plugged securely into the back of >your computer." >"I can't reach." >"Uh huh. Well, can you see if it is?" >"No." >"Even if you maybe put your knee on something and lean way over?" >"Oh, it's not because I don't have the right angle-it's because it's dark." >"Dark?" >"Yes-the office light t." >"No? Why not?" >"Because there's a power outage." >"A power... A power outage? Aha! Okay, we've got it licked now. Do you >still have the boxes and manuals and packing stuff your computer came in?" >"Well, yes, I keep them in the closet." >"Good! Go get them, and unplug your system and pack it up just like it was >when you got it. Then take it back to the store you bought it from." >"Really? Is it that bad?" >"Yes, I'm afraid it is." >"Well, all right then, I suppose. What do I tell them?" >"Tell them you're too stupid to own a computer." > > > > >> Robin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 22:09:32 -0700 From: Eclipse Subject: Re: Alloy: Re: Art debate thing electrix wrote: > > > BOLD statement...whoever, I can see that it is from a person that hasn't > taken the time to listen (no offense). The words "within/without" are > very frequently used by yogis. What it entails is this: Where does the > inside seizes to be the outside and vise-versa. We can stand from either > side of the fence and describe it. It doesn't matter. The fact is - if > you believe your body is the final doorstop to that which is in reality > infinite, then, yes I must agree with you. > > However, I know that like our ears, our eyes have the WORST range of > input. Seeing range amounts to one octave. Now, if we chop off a man's > hands, we would see meat fall away. Magnify that same area and you would > notice the holography of that hand still there. Eyes, like > emotions,...can be deceiving. > .... > Correcto mundo...can't deny that there is interplay among the existent > and non-existent. However, my comment regarding the origin of an > artistic product wasn't intended to be a focus of one "source." I ment > to question what are the other potential source(s) of the manifestation > of music. Since that isn't identifiable...then it is a > mystery...whether coming from the inside or the outside. I certainly > perceive it coming from the inside, but I am certainly not persuaded by > my ego, that it comes totally from me --- the inside. Many times I found > myself at the seat of my car and that "new" tune just "pops" into my > head. I didn't call it. It came to me. It announced its presence, and > like a fresh idea, it opens up new vistas. Excuse me for saying so, but the above argument borders on the absurd--it is beyond the realm of both science -and- phenomenology. Certainly it is ultimately a mystery where things like art and feeling come from. Likewise, no one can prove or disprove that the universe exists. Go ahead and say that it doesn't--no one can prove you wrong. We experience the universe as existing, and most of us experience art as coming from within (and although that is not defined, none of this is...that doesn't mean it's not understood). Limitations on sight and sound reception can be proven, shown to our experience and perception. Your ideas of things outside perception certainly have not, and probably can not be. As far as the body being the final doorstep to the infinite, well, assuming the universe is infinite, of course it is. Everything from the outside world comes to the self through the senses and/or the physical brain. That doesn't mean things can't originate inside, unless you take "originate" with an absolutist meaning (i.e., art could not be created without experiences that necessarily come from without. dreams, isolation tank hallucinations, etc, also originally fundamentally rely on outside factors and past experiences) > > Dreams aren't (in most people, that is) under conscious control either, > > but most people tend to agree that they come from somewhere inside, not > > some place way "out there"... > > Lucid dreaming would render the above statement flawed. And for those > that never have experienced it...it DOES exist. That's why I said "in most people". I am -very- well aware of lucid dreaming, and yes it exists, it's a scientifically valid field of research. And the lucid dreamers I've encountered tend to think that those dreams are still, indeed, the creation of the mind (the exception being some dreams that were thought to be partially telepathic, from other creatures in the general reality (humans, dogs, cats, dolphins, etc)). So what? I was trying to state that just because something isn't under conscious control doesn't mean it comes from some larger source. Sometimes it is under conscious control, and...? > > Regarding interpretations... Who was it that said art isn't "complete" > > until it's been seen or listened to or read (etc) by someone? This > > could of course include the artist, too. > > Good point. Although I usually present a one sided approach (especially > when it is hard to be neutral in respect to gender)...I tend to be one > to embrace existence as totally wholistic. Unfortunately, the English > language is totally one sided in its expression. Language, my friend, is what you make on it. Not that there's anything -wrong- with Sapir-Whorf... - -- E(lipse ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 22:20:45 -0700 From: Eclipse Subject: Re: Alloy:... Elaine Linstruth wrote: > > I would just like to say that I've been hitting D on most Alloy posts for > 2 days now. You guys are getting too rude and argumentative about a > subject that shouldn't provoke anyone. Point taken...is anyone else out there in Alloyland offended by the recent conversations? I realize this list reaches a lot of people, and if this is really bothering a bunch of them, maybe the other people (besides me) who have been participating in the discussions could find another means of doing it... (just a pleasant diplomatic suggestion and request for input, I'm not sayint we should or shouldn't do anything. :) ) I for one find it enjoyable, and don't think anything anyone's said has been really rude, but that could well be my flawed perception. Alloyites? What do you all think...? Sincerely, E(lipse ------------------------------ End of alloy-digest V2 #211 ***************************